Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Tension in Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 1

btb, you missed out the accents!

I'm sorry if this doesn't help much with arm tension, but when I studied this etude, I noticed that you never had to stretch the (right) hand more than an octave, and rarely an octave at all.

If you let your arm glide your hand over the keys, you should still maintain a good legato and keep all of the accents, without stretching the hand to any discomforting level.

With respect, I think it's as obvious that R.H. legato has as little relevance to this piece as handspan: none. You "wouldn't legato everything" because you can't.

There's no reason to think that anything in this piece is "very bad" for the hand when played with the correct mechanism. I'm convinced that here, as elsewhere in Chopin, persistent trouble of the sort found by the OP is evidence that the proper technique hasn't been found and isn't being employed.

With the etudes especially, one can (and must) acquire the technique to play them successfully—i.e., at a reasonably finished tempo with no adverse physical effect whatsoever—through the study of the music itself, or it just won't be possible.

Steven

Looks more like the Rockies to me.

I thought it looked like a stand of Christmas trees.

Steven

Can't I? Why not? I think you should rephrase that as being "as much relevance". You seem to have forgotten two things:

1. a larger hand is better equipped to reach wider intervals in a short space of time, whether they are played legato or not. The more jumps are undertaken in a rapid passage, the more a large hand reduces the difficulty of covering everything.

2. Non legato playing is far more tiring than legato playing. I don't think many people would deny that. The more jumps are made, the harder it is to maintain a smooth flow. Unless there is an absolute need to make such jumps, they are better avoided. For my own hand, the only interval where I would consider jumping is on a particularly wide E major arpeggiation. Stretching it is a little risky (unless I'm very warmed up) but having to jump makes it the hardest part in the piece. It's much more effort than simply breezing from finger to finger. Provided that my hands are warmed up enough to cover the stretch (while still maintaing the necessary grip, rather than contorting with a drooping knuckle) I couldn't stress too highly how much easier it is to stretch and angle the hand out, rather than to jump. Such movements also lead to improvement in the hand's capacity, rather than restricting its range to what it can already do.

I think you've missed the point here in a variety of ways.

Non-legato has nothing to do with jumps. You don't seem to understand that.

I think you're just looking for an argument, as is your wont.

Steven

If it has nothing to do with jumps, why are you saying the hand size makes no difference to how easily the study can be played? If it's not about jumping between any notes, obviously the hand size WOULD make a substantial difference- legato or not. How do you propose that a small hand will avoid any such jumps, if the size matters so little? You are contradicting yourself most directly.

What I understand perfectly well is that I improved my playing of the study drastically by working on a true legato, instead of leaving gaps. I'm not looking to argue for the sake of it. Perhaps you would like to believe that's the only reason why somebody might possibly argue with your point, but I simply happen to think that you are overwhelmingly mistaken. Quite what might possess somebody to make the blanket claim that you can't play it legato, is quite beyond me. So, if you aren't talking about jumping to avoid stretches (despite claiming that the size of the hand doesn't matter), are you going to follow through and explain WHY you feel it can't be played legato?

I'm not contradicting myself at all, and think your understanding is far from perfect. Perhaps you should accept that there are some things that are "beyond" you.

Legato means "bound" or "connected." Notes that are too far apart to be physically connected except at the slowest speeds cannot be connected. If you believe they can, perhaps the laws of physics just don't apply to you.

If you choose to characterize the movement from key to key, and from one four-note figuration to another, as "jumping," then that's your choice of words. I would call it gliding; with pedal, there's a perception of legato. The notes themselves are not legato in any way that the word is commonly understood.

Whatever works! I'm glad you've found the mechanism that works successfully for you.

Steven

p.s. I don't believe you have any interest here other than exercising your one-upmanship in a prolonged, tedious and escalating back-and-forth (i.e., your consistent pattern of "discussion"). I don't share that interest, so go ahead and have the last word.

I will readily accept that the idea that the size of the hand does not matter is considerably beyond me. Call it gliding or jumping or whatever. A smaller hand obviously has further to glide. So it is substantially more difficult than with a larger one. There is no reason to approach it this way, if your hand can comfortably connect. Perhaps you have a smaller hand, but my hand can connect every interval in the piece without strain. Looking to improve such connections has made it more comfortable than every before. I'm not sure why you wish to tell everyone that they "can't" play legato. It's simply not true. For those who cannot reach gliding may be a necessity. For those who can, it isn't. Legato is inherently easier, if you can reach far enough. That's precisely why the size of the hand indeed matters.



Legato means "bound" or "connected." Notes that are too far apart to be physically connected except at the slowest speeds cannot be connected. If you believe they can, perhaps the laws of physics just don't apply to you.

Would you care to quote which particular law it is that dictates that my hand might be incapable of covering distances which ALL fall below an octave? Newton? Einstein? The hardest stretches are a sixth from 3 to 5 and a seventh from 1 to 2. You really don't need to be Rachmaninoff to pull that off.

If you choose to characterize the movement from key to key, and from one four-note figuration to another, as "jumping," then that's your choice of words. I would call it gliding; with pedal, there's a perception of legato. The notes themselves are not legato in any way that the word is commonly understood.

Perhaps when you play it. If that offers you a decent speed and continuity, obviously you've found something that can work for you. However, I'm not sure why that would lead you to tell others that it is hence impossible to play it legato. Obviously you don't have a large enough hand, or you have not experimented with your full range of flexibility. That doesn't prevent anyone else from approaching it with a true legato.

Except that I found that angling hand out causes wrist pain, and the only way to avoid it was to jump on the larger first intervals.

That depends what you mean by angling. Keep the wrist aligned and there's no pain or problem whatsoever. You just have to be careful not to reach from the wrist itself. It's not even physically possible to play op. 25 no. 1 without such movements, so there's no reason to be shy about them in this study. You just have to make sure you maintain the alignment and that you don't overdo it in any one session. I've found that the key is to maintain the position of the knuckle on the 2nd finger. If I stretch in a manner that makes this droop, it feels very wrong.As long as I feel I'm still gripping (with a raised knuckle) I've never felt any issue at all.

How do you finger this passage?

C - F - C - F - C - F - C - F - C - F - C - F - C - F - C

1 - 2 - 4 - 5 is the usual fingering, but it causes severe strain between 2 and 4, unless you have massive hands. The stretch between 4 and 5 isn't pretty, either. For me, this is the worst passage in the whole piece.

Re-fingered, you can use 2 - 1 - 2 - 5

Not at all. You let go of the C and F (fingers 1&2) and move your wrist to the right before you get to the 'finger 4' C. If you use no pedal with this etude you should hear huge gaps.

How big is your hand? I honestly doubt whether you need to stretch as much as you think. Surely a perfect 5th is not that big an ask from 2 to 4? Try playing it as a series of pairs of notes. On each one squeeze inwards slightly- so the hand is gripping into the keys and not straining outwards (which often coincides with the hand drooping at an notable angle on the side of the 5th, rather than staying level at the knuckles). I'd be surprised if there were not an alignment where a stable position is possible, except for small hands with limited flexibility. It's a matter of finding a position where both fingers can line up equally (ie. not lining up the first naturally and then straining the other at an outwards angle). I'd always line up more from the upper finger, rather than the lower one.

If this really isn't possible, try with intervals one smaller. As long as you squeeze inwards slightly, the keys push you back outwards, so you can improve over time. My stretch has improve a great deal recently, from this. The worst thing you can do is to feel that you're pushing in the fingers outwards, instead of using the stronger muscles to grip inwards. Get in the habit of gripping inwards on intervals that are managable and your hand will improve. I didn't use to be able to cover basic 7th chords comfortably until recently (without letting weaker fingers droop at a bad angle), despite having a comfortable tenth. The size of my hand wasn't the problem. It was that I was stretching outwards, rather than gripping inwards.

Also, in the rest of the study I'd practise with two three note chords (the first three of the physical group and the last three). For my hand, there are very few where I can't comfortably cover two chords of three at a time. If you think of the study as alternating in the simplest way between these two shapes (in which the 2nd and 3rd notes are the same, so you have plenty of time) it doesn't seem like so much stretching. Work backwards from the highest fingers (after lining them directly into key) and it can be surprisingly easier to cover every note comfortably.

Nonsense. If you play it with no pedal you should barely hear these gaps at all. Otherwise they are being controlled very poorly. For those who have no choice but to leave gaps, they should still conceive it as the closest thing physically possible to a legato. Otherwise attempting it at speed will be overwhelmingly tiring.

Still the insistence on massive hands and severe strain? I can't believe you're serious.

I know you're a teacher, but I would respectfully suggest you're completely out of your depth here if you believe your own words—including the counsel that refingering such passages is a supposed expedient. There's no reason for that, and no point to it.

"What passes you ain't for you."

Steven

Steven--

I am dead serious. I learned this etude in high school, and again in college. There are only 2 or 3 spots in this etude that pose technical difficulties for me, and I negotiate each passage with a different strategy.

Re-fingering parts of Op. 10 No. 1 is commonplace. I've heard that advice from several teachers and professors. I didn't _have_ to re-finger anything, but my first teacher who taught me the piece got me to use modified fingerings for a few passages, so I still do that to this day.

I do have big hands. That's why I can negotiate the F-C split with 2-4. I seriously doubt any of my students can do that right now without hurting themselves.

Refingering 10/1 is a ridiculous proposition.

There is no finger-split between 2-4 or any other fingers. The hand moves.

Again: the hand moves. It doesn't seem to occur to you that you fail to apprehend how this etude works.

I'll be blunt: you didn't learn it correctly, and you shouldn't be teaching it.

Steven

I can physically legato the 2-4 in that case, but I don't think most people can, or do the 2-4-5 in that passage without being non-legato. But I agree with you that non-legato is the way to go, at least for that section.

If you play non-legato at a very fast tempo, the human ear perceives it as legato, anyway. Of course, the pedal helps.

I wonder if Chopin will approve any of this discussion about modifying the etude and doing non-legato.