Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
136 registered (ajames, accordeur, 36251, Alexander Borro, Abby Pianoman, 38 invisible), 1651 Guests and 20 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#1278977 - 10/01/09 09:57 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone" [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I am as obsessed with tone, particularly duplicating somebody's tone like Keith Jarrett. My teacher is obsessed with tone as well.


me too!
_________________________
http://davesolazzo.com

Top
Piano & Music Accessories
#1278978 - 10/01/09 09:57 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: VirtuosicOne]
survivordan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 844
Loc: Ohio
It's not the words but the way in which one person thinks themselves better than another without reason................
_________________________
Working On:

BACH: Invention No. 13 in a min.
GRIEG: Notturno Op. 54 No. 4
VILLA-LOBOS: O Polichinelo

Next Up:

BACH: Keyboard Concerto in f minor

Top
#1278979 - 10/01/09 09:57 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: survivordan]
VirtuosicOne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 144
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: survivordan
if people like you exist only to taunt others unnecessarily.


Don't you think your statement is far more digraceful than my pointing out that "tone" is inherent in the piano, not the pianist?
Fairly hypocritical I would say. Don't you agree?
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

Top
#1278980 - 10/01/09 09:58 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: survivordan]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: survivordan
How does one ignore users?


View any user's profile, and choose "Ignore this user" on the top bar above the profile.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#1278981 - 10/01/09 09:58 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: VirtuosicOne]
survivordan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 844
Loc: Ohio
All in the spirit of good debate.
_________________________
Working On:

BACH: Invention No. 13 in a min.
GRIEG: Notturno Op. 54 No. 4
VILLA-LOBOS: O Polichinelo

Next Up:

BACH: Keyboard Concerto in f minor

Top
#1278982 - 10/01/09 09:59 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: Horowitzian]
survivordan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 844
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: survivordan
How does one ignore users?


View any user's profile, and choose "Ignore this user" on the top bar above the profile.


All better!!
_________________________
Working On:

BACH: Invention No. 13 in a min.
GRIEG: Notturno Op. 54 No. 4
VILLA-LOBOS: O Polichinelo

Next Up:

BACH: Keyboard Concerto in f minor

Top
#1278984 - 10/01/09 10:00 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: survivordan]
VirtuosicOne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 144
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: survivordan
It's not the words but the way in which one person thinks themselves better than another without reason................


I didn't interject thoughts on myself into the conversation once. I wrote on tone and it being a delusion to think that one can change the tone (inherent acoustical profile) of the piano.
Tone is timbre. And the timbre of the piano is a byproduct of mnay factors, from construction to acoustical environment.
The tone will remain unchanged if a note is depressed with a set ASR, regardless of the actor.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

Top
#1278986 - 10/01/09 10:02 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: survivordan]
VirtuosicOne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 144
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: survivordan
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: survivordan
How does one ignore users?


View any user's profile, and choose "Ignore this user" on the top bar above the profile.


All better!!


Are you intolerant of basic acoustical science? Or me. Because all I've posted is based on nonconvulated scientific principles of acoustics in regard to "tone".
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

Top
#1279052 - 10/02/09 12:22 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: VirtuosicOne]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21827
Loc: Oakland
My experience is that there are pianists of all genres who are obsessed with tone, but the classical pianists are less likely to have their obsession under control.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#1279055 - 10/02/09 12:28 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: BDB]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
I realize the Title of this thread is already negative and perhaps Troll-ish in composition, but the question is a valid one and need not result in off-topic accusations.

So far we've all agreed that we're all the same, haven't we?
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1279056 - 10/02/09 12:28 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: VirtuosicOne]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: VirtuosicOne
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian

You, BJones, Virtuosic1, and Disciple are all one and the same person. It's too much of a coincidence to have four people with exactly the same writing style, and exactly the same bias against other genres.

You'd make a terrible juror. eek

He examined the evidence and reached a conclusion based on it, which is what a juror does.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I realize the Title of this thread is already negative and perhaps Troll-ish in composition, but the question is a valid one and need not result in off-topic accusations.

It's certainly a loaded question, as it takes for granted that classical pianists are obsessed with tone. I don't think that can be assumed; if anything, there may be evidence that those most obsessed with tone aren't necessarily serious players of any genre. One only has to look at the regularity of threads in the Piano Forum about countless quests for the "perfect" piano, in which tone may be described with the kind of specificity more commonly reserved for fine wine.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#1279065 - 10/02/09 12:59 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: sotto voce]
VirtuosicOne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 144
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: VirtuosicOne
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian

You, BJones, Virtuosic1, and Disciple are all one and the same person. It's too much of a coincidence to have four people with exactly the same writing style, and exactly the same bias against other genres.

You'd make a terrible juror. eek

He examined the evidence and reached a conclusion based on it, which is what a juror does.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I realize the Title of this thread is already negative and perhaps Troll-ish in composition, but the question is a valid one and need not result in off-topic accusations.

It's certainly a loaded question, as it takes for granted that classical pianists are obsessed with tone. I don't think that can be assumed; if anything, there may be evidence that those most obsessed with tone aren't necessarily serious players of any genre. One only has to look at the regularity of threads in the Piano Forum about countless quests for the "perfect" piano, in which tone may be described with the kind of specificity more commonly reserved for fine wine.

Steven


Here's the article that likely fueled the "tone libido" of those from the "tone can be controlled" camp:

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:2K4t8DbarWoJ:www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.1.1.2+piano+tone+Can+it+be+controlled&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

If that link doesn't work:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...mp;oq=&aqi=

first hit

and if that fails, goggle "piano tone Can it be controlled"

The writer is under the assumption that the flex (that is the actual bend of the shaft during and after impact, can be somehow be miraculously controlled by the pianist as well as the escapement.
Curiously enough, we're not just talking about one note, but that on each and every note, even multiply struck notes, regardless of their rate of speed, the pianist can control the way the hammer shafts are bending by fluctuation in the way he ALLOWS the escapement to function!
I never looked into it. Does Uri Geller play the piano?
A pianist being able to exert that kind of control would be like a slugger picking out which square millimeter of a ball, machine pitched at 175 mph, he was going to strike with which part of the bat and exactly which seat in the upper deck of the bleachers he was going to hit it to ... 100 times in succession.

Like it or not, I'll wager heavily that if the author of that article attended a concert by Horowitz, Argerich, or any others noted for their "singing tone", and afterwards congratulated any one of them on their uncanny ability to control the escapement, ergo the bend of the hammer shafts, they'd look at him and say, "Congratulations on WHAT?".


_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

Top
#1279071 - 10/02/09 01:08 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: sotto voce]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
[
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I realize the Title of this thread is already negative and perhaps Troll-ish in composition, but the question is a valid one and need not result in off-topic accusations.

It's certainly a loaded question, as it takes for granted that classical pianists are obsessed with tone. I don't think that can be assumed; if anything, there may be evidence that those most obsessed with tone aren't necessarily serious players of any genre. One only has to look at the regularity of threads in the Piano Forum about countless quests for the "perfect" piano, in which tone may be described with the kind of specificity more commonly reserved for fine wine.

Steven


Well, this is an oft discussed topic and we always go back to define "What is Tone?". And then the whole debate about flexing hammers and such business.

But I think it is safe to say that good pianists of any genre seek to control the percussive attack, sustain, and legato (with the exception of Gyro). At least when jazz pianists discuss tone, that's what we are talking about. Perhaps I would refer to more often as the "Touch".

Tone can be confused with the physical and uncontrollable aspects. And I agree with you that that is obsessed with, maybe more in the Piano Forum. Rather than the Pianists Forum.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1279077 - 10/02/09 01:17 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
BTW - Sotto Voce, I do obsess with the "TONE" of my Steinway smile But that's another story. wink And no, I make no claim to control that with my playing. I'd have to call the Tech.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1279086 - 10/02/09 01:34 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: VirtuosicOne]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
VirtuosicOne is simply stating the obvious. Each piano has an inherant tone. The pianist can only control the many possible levels of attack, sustain and release. Also resonance and sympathetic vibrations through pedaling. Also voicing harmonies by empahisizing different notes in a chord.

Top
#1279119 - 10/02/09 02:43 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: Jazz+]
VirtuosicOne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 144
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
VirtuosicOne is simply stating the obvious. Each piano has an inherant tone. The pianist can only control the many possible levels of attack, sustain and release. Also resonance and sympathetic vibrations through pedaling. Also voicing harmonies by empahisizing different notes in a chord.


Of interest, what led Lennie to experiment with tape (music concrete) was hearing the piano with a tone halfway between a piano and guitar, and not being able to produce it. He also "heard" piano like a horn player, and wanting to be able to impart a vocal quality, breathing more life into his lines, he created vibrato (a true pitch modulation) by manipulating the drive wheel of the tape recorder!
Recording those two tracks from Atlantic 1224, that we've discussed in another thread, at half speed, half tempo, then mastering them at full speed gave Lennie's piano that "alto-piano" timbral quality that he heard , but could only duplicate electronically.
At that time, 1954/1955, to Lennie's knowledge and my knowledge, nobody else in jazz had used these taping prinicples, which did cause many eyebrows of the time to raise.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

Top
#1279121 - 10/02/09 02:55 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: Jazz+]
VirtuosicOne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 144
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
VirtuosicOne is simply stating the obvious. Each piano has an inherant tone. The pianist can only control the many possible levels of attack, sustain and release. Also resonance and sympathetic vibrations through pedaling. Also voicing harmonies by empahisizing different notes in a chord.


I'm sure their confusion is over terminology. While it's true that one word can in of itself be a sentence, typically, phrased musical sentences need more than one component to be able to inflect spin, or phrasing, more properly, internote dynamics and ASR. Phrasing is created by at least two notes, one of which is either greater or less in some musical parameter than the one that precedes it, or in phrases of more than two notes, that follows it.
The more notes, the more ways there are to successively inflect individually upon each component, whether dynamically, durationally, etc., etc., even spatially (as Miles often does very effectively with sometimes only ONE note!), and the greater the possible diversity of phrasing becomes.
Classical pianists are dealing within finite boundaries. That boundary is the mind of the composer.
Jazz musicians are not bound by the minds of others and seek to become totally self sufficient when it comes to musical material, relying only on their own imaginations. Not the imagination of others.
Aside from the dialect that's the basic difference.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

Top
#1279136 - 10/02/09 04:45 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: BDB]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: BDB
My experience is that there are pianists of all genres who are obsessed with tone, but the classical pianists are less likely to have their obsession under control.

LOL.

Wow. I come back the next morning and there are almost 50 replies, some of them even about the subject.

Thanks in particular to those who chose to make a relevant contribution to the the actual question as opposed to stirring the pot and issuing personal attacks at other posters!
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I realize the Title of this thread is already negative and perhaps Troll-ish in composition, but the question is a valid one and need not result in off-topic accusations.

So far we've all agreed that we're all the same, haven't we?

I resemble that remark. It is a fact that there have been many posts on the Piano forum about the tone of pianos and on the Pianist Corner about producing tone, the possibilities of affecting tone, the definition of tone, the praise of tone, the denial of tone, the proof from Physics that tone does not exist, the Proof from neuroscience that it is all in our head, snide, gratuitous remarks about Lang Lang, etc. etc.

I do appreciate the comments about how Jazz is different and the first explanation given by V1, although pithy in its rhetoric, does make sense. Of course we are talking in generalities, but in general, those starting to learn jazz often seem to be focusing on something much different than the elusive and anal retentive goal of perfect "tone" production that is oft discussed on the (Classical) Pianist Corner.

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
VirtuosicOne is simply stating the obvious. Each piano has an inherant tone. The pianist can only control the many possible levels of attack, sustain and release. Also resonance and sympathetic vibrations through pedaling. Also voicing harmonies by emphasizing different notes in a chord.


Is that all????? It sounds like an awful lot to be in control of to me and would go a long way to explaining why we all can tell good "tone" when we hear it -- whether from a Classical musician or a Jazz musician--, even if most of us can't put our finger on what we mean when we say it -- or line up our fingers to actually be able to (re)product it.
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
But I think it is safe to say that good pianists of any genre seek to control the percussive attack, sustain, and legato (with the exception of Gyro). At least when jazz pianists discuss tone, that's what we are talking about. Perhaps I would refer to more often as the "Touch".

Originally Posted By: VirtuosicOne
I'm sure their confusion is over terminology. While it's true that one word can in of itself be a sentence, typically, phrased musical sentences need more than one component to be able to inflect spin, or phrasing, more properly, internote dynamics and ASR. Phrasing is created by at least two notes, one of which is either greater or less in some musical parameter than the one that precedes it, or in phrases of more than two notes, that follows it.
The more notes, the more ways there are to successively inflect individually upon each component, whether dynamically, durationally, etc., etc., even spatially (as Miles often does very effectively with sometimes only ONE note!), and the greater the possible diversity of phrasing becomes.
Classical pianists are dealing within finite boundaries. That boundary is the mind of the composer.
Jazz musicians are not bound by the minds of others and seek to become totally self sufficient when it comes to musical material, relying only on their own imaginations. Not the imagination of others.
Aside from the dialect that's the basic difference.

Great posts!

I find myself more and more drawn to Jazz.
Playing Classical Music is my first love, but it could be compared sometimes to choral reading or to reading an Abraham Lincoln speech word for word in historically accurate clothing.

Jazz on the other hand is more like extemporaneous speaking, or having a spontaneous conversation -- if you have internalized the language to be able to string two sentences together.

Since starting my Jazz study this year I have notice how much better my ear is becoming --- and the positive effect this has on my tone...


Edited by theJourney (10/02/09 04:47 AM)

Top
#1279189 - 10/02/09 08:18 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: theJourney]
VirtuosicOne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 144
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: BDB
My experience is that there are pianists of all genres who are obsessed with tone, but the classical pianists are less likely to have their obsession under control.

LOL.

Wow. I come back the next morning and there are almost 50 replies, some of them even about the subject.

Thanks in particular to those who chose to make a relevant contribution to the the actual question as opposed to stirring the pot and issuing personal attacks at other posters!
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I realize the Title of this thread is already negative and perhaps Troll-ish in composition, but the question is a valid one and need not result in off-topic accusations.

So far we've all agreed that we're all the same, haven't we?

I resemble that remark. It is a fact that there have been many posts on the Piano forum about the tone of pianos and on the Pianist Corner about producing tone, the possibilities of affecting tone, the definition of tone, the praise of tone, the denial of tone, the proof from Physics that tone does not exist, the Proof from neuroscience that it is all in our head, snide, gratuitous remarks about Lang Lang, etc. etc.

I do appreciate the comments about how Jazz is different and the first explanation given by V1, although pithy in its rhetoric, does make sense. Of course we are talking in generalities, but in general, those starting to learn jazz often seem to be focusing on something much different than the elusive and anal retentive goal of perfect "tone" production that is oft discussed on the (Classical) Pianist Corner.

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
VirtuosicOne is simply stating the obvious. Each piano has an inherant tone. The pianist can only control the many possible levels of attack, sustain and release. Also resonance and sympathetic vibrations through pedaling. Also voicing harmonies by emphasizing different notes in a chord.


Is that all????? It sounds like an awful lot to be in control of to me and would go a long way to explaining why we all can tell good "tone" when we hear it -- whether from a Classical musician or a Jazz musician--, even if most of us can't put our finger on what we mean when we say it -- or line up our fingers to actually be able to (re)product it.
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
But I think it is safe to say that good pianists of any genre seek to control the percussive attack, sustain, and legato (with the exception of Gyro). At least when jazz pianists discuss tone, that's what we are talking about. Perhaps I would refer to more often as the "Touch".

Originally Posted By: VirtuosicOne
I'm sure their confusion is over terminology. While it's true that one word can in of itself be a sentence, typically, phrased musical sentences need more than one component to be able to inflect spin, or phrasing, more properly, internote dynamics and ASR. Phrasing is created by at least two notes, one of which is either greater or less in some musical parameter than the one that precedes it, or in phrases of more than two notes, that follows it.
The more notes, the more ways there are to successively inflect individually upon each component, whether dynamically, durationally, etc., etc., even spatially (as Miles often does very effectively with sometimes only ONE note!), and the greater the possible diversity of phrasing becomes.
Classical pianists are dealing within finite boundaries. That boundary is the mind of the composer.
Jazz musicians are not bound by the minds of others and seek to become totally self sufficient when it comes to musical material, relying only on their own imaginations. Not the imagination of others.
Aside from the dialect that's the basic difference.

Great posts!

I find myself more and more drawn to Jazz.
Playing Classical Music is my first love, but it could be compared sometimes to choral reading or to reading an Abraham Lincoln speech word for word in historically accurate clothing.

Jazz on the other hand is more like extemporaneous speaking, or having a spontaneous conversation -- if you have internalized the language to be able to string two sentences together.

Since starting my Jazz study this year I have notice how much better my ear is becoming --- and the positive effect this has on my tone...


Here's another concept to wrap our minds around. I'm to the point where I play mistly in the moment, striving for instant composition, the highest form of improvisation. I always hear a flow of music in my head that is neither Lennie T, nor Martial Solal, Keith Jarrett, Borah Bergman, Sorabji, Charles Ives, or any other of the musicians and composers that I admire and programmed my musical psyche with, but an amalgam of my program that has evolved into pure me. I don't have to think about what I'm going to play when I sit down to play, I simply join the flow of music that's already in progress in my mind, the music I would "hear" whether I put my hands on the keys to join it, play contrapuntally to it, maybe even in a different key or in retrograde, or can simply sit with my hands on my lap and the sound in my head would remain the same.
Now once I join what I'm already listening to, the TONE OF THE PIANO ITSELF, whether it's the mellow sound of a Mason & Hamlin, or the brilliant, clear, crisp, upper harmonic rich tone of my Yamaha, or even a Febder Rhodes.
The sound of my instrument will dictate the way that I play it and WHAT I PLAY ON IT.
The tone of the sound reinforces thereby dictating what I play, creating the best reparte' with the sound in my head.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

Top
#1279202 - 10/02/09 08:51 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: VirtuosicOne]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
... cross posted .. removed


Edited by knotty (10/02/09 08:51 AM)

Top
#1279258 - 10/02/09 10:40 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Examples of Jazzer interest in tone...

Brad Mehldau, in an interview said his goal was to make the piano sound like a human voice. Madame Chaloff, famous teacher of Keith Jarret, Herbie Hancock, Kenny Werner and my own teacher, says "the piano is a wind instrument".

Kenny Werner, in his book talks about the search for that Bill Evans sound. He related a story when at a party of pianists, some of the pianists played on the piano which was criticized as having poor tone. And then Bill Evans played on it, and it sounded like, well, Bill Evans. And they were astounded.

Interviews of Jarrett is frequently about "how do you create that sound?"

So, in keeping with the definition of Tone as the things once can control in the piano (Attack, Sustain, Release as V1 has stated), you can see that in Jazz, this interest in tone is quite apparent.

I think the reason this is of big interest in jazz is that most of jazz is a distinct single melodic line of playing. Typically exposed and supported only by soft LH chords and a soft rhythm section.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1279424 - 10/02/09 02:33 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone" [Re: jazzwee]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
When pianist say they "produce" a tone on a piano they mean it in the sense that they "manage" the tone of the piano. Produce and manage are synonymous in this case.

Top
#1279460 - 10/02/09 03:31 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone" [Re: Jazz+]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
I notice "tone" in the original question is in inverted commas, indicating suspicion - like saying 'so-called tone'.

What is tone? Is it really just timbre?

My opinion? When we talk about tone we're not really too specific about what it means. (Obviously, I can't speak for the classical pianist camp). Good noise, bad noise, we perceive it as a whole. Put Keith Jarrett on a really badly out-of-tune Steinway, and will the 'tone' be good? Don't think so. We'd be sitting with our fingers in our ears.

Some elements of 'tone' the pianist can control - phrasing, accents, timing, articulation, dynamics, evenness. But clearly a pianist can't control the actual timbre of the sound like a singer or a clarinetist can. We are using an instrument to create the sound, we are not actually biologically attached to the sounds produced. So there is an element we can't control.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

Top
#1279488 - 10/02/09 04:11 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone" [Re: ten left thumbs]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3243
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Some elements of 'tone' the pianist can control - phrasing, accents, timing, articulation, dynamics, evenness. But clearly a pianist can't control the actual timbre of the sound like a singer or a clarinetist can.


As annoying as it may be to the scientific minded, the overall strategy may not be entirely wrong.

I agree with the above paragraph. The complexity of what we can control with very subtle timing of the articulations is what we hear as tone.

The idea that we can control timbre separately from that, with the use of touch to modify hammer flex, is surely a myth. If there were any reality to it at all we'd have been able to demonstrate it in controlled experiments, and we can't. Hundreds of experiments have been done over centuries, and though people work hard to find flaws in them, the absence of any positive results is glaring. This myth should be put to rest.

And yet, I'm not sure it is a completely useless one. The complexity of timing and voicing that really creates the characteristic sound of a individual player is probably beyond conscious control. Focusing attention on the mythical touch moves your attention away from what you need to do, and perhaps lets it happen subconsciously.

Is it true that classical players are more prone to the touch superstition than jazz? That may possibly be true. But few of us mix in enough genres to know what our peers talk about. I'm not sure we have good data on this one. It is believable, but should remain open awaiting evidence.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#1279585 - 10/02/09 07:34 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone" [Re: theJourney]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19595
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: theJourney
There have been lots of posts in the past on the Pianist Corner forum about tone and the physical side of playing the piano which can be summarized as " only careful years long study with a master teacher on a fine acoustic instrument can insure that the pianist will not injure himself and produce an ugly banging tone ".


This "summary" isn't vaguely close to being a correct summary.

Top
#1279705 - 10/02/09 11:48 PM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone" [Re: pianoloverus]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1081
Loc: California
Well, I have noticed a difference even among upper intermediate piano students. In one of our classes, a student (more advanced than the rest of us) played a Scarlatti piece, and his tone was gorgeous. I really hadn't paid much attention to students' tone, because...well most didn't play that well.

But he had a clear light lovely tone (the Steinway helped), and when I asked him what he did, he didn't have a clue!

Didn't Bill Evans have beautiful tone?

Top
#1279777 - 10/03/09 04:19 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: pianoloverus]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
There have been lots of posts in the past on the Pianist Corner forum about tone and the physical side of playing the piano which can be summarized as " only careful years long study with a master teacher on a fine acoustic instrument can insure that the pianist will not injure himself and produce an ugly banging tone ".


This "summary" isn't vaguely close to being a correct summary.


Easy to criticize, isn't it?
Much more difficult to contribute.

Why not share with us your correct "summary" of the past years of posting on tone? Perhaps such an approach would tend to help stimulate discussion rather than attempt to stifle it.

Top
#1279781 - 10/03/09 04:34 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: jazzwee]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Kenny Werner, in his book talks about the search for that Bill Evans sound. He related a story when at a party of pianists, some of the pianists played on the piano which was criticized as having poor tone. And then Bill Evans played on it, and it sounded like, well, Bill Evans. And they were astounded.


I bet that Bill Evans would sound like Bill Evans with a Bill Evans "tone" on a Roland stage piano too.

Top
#1279838 - 10/03/09 09:10 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: theJourney]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4437
Loc: San Jose, CA
"Didn't Bill Evans have beautiful tone?"

Oh, yes. None lovelier.

"I bet that Bill Evans would sound like Bill Evans with a Bill Evans "tone" on a Roland stage piano too."

He did some work with a Fender Rhodes... cutting edge for its day... but went back to acoustic. Dead at fifty-one; drugs. Heartbreaking. So many of the very finest talents snatched up that way.
_________________________
Clef


Top
#1279924 - 10/03/09 11:47 AM Re: Is only the Classical Pianist Corner Obsessed with "Tone [Re: Jeff Clef]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
I'm not sure the word Timbre makes it any more clearer than Tone.

In the Evans example that's in Werner's book, I believe the other Pianists did make a statement that the piano did not sound good (Bad inherent tone? smile ). Then when Bill Evans played it, they were all put to shame. So yes, Evans would mostly likely sound better than any of us on a Roland Stage Piano. However, I think since there's less to control on the digital, that difference might be minimized. Probably more people can sound good on a digital. An acoustic is not so forgiving.

Now in Jazz at least, there's a big difference with other Genres in how to manage this tone. Jazz doesn't use a lot of pedal. With the quick stream of notes and the dissonances, this would not sound good with pedal. So by the nature of the beast the Jazz player is very concerned with the Release portion of Attack/Sustain/Release (ASR), in other words very legato oriented, which is a key part of swing.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  sharpsandflats 
What's Hot!!

Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How Old should Bass Strings be Before You Replace Them?
by Paul678
11/28/14 11:03 AM
My Blthner
by joe80
11/28/14 10:30 AM
What to teach before transferring to a jazz teacher
by hreichgott
11/28/14 10:06 AM
Neo-soul keys on Steinberg's half-price sale
by dire tonic
11/28/14 09:13 AM
Bob Marley - Is this love piano cover
by Danijelcro
11/28/14 07:28 AM
Forum Stats
77074 Members
42 Forums
159417 Topics
2341805 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission