Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Laminated vs Solid soundboards. .

Yes, Chickgrand - I erred in the use of the word "resonance". What I intended to convey is that a properly designed and executed laminated board will not have a negative affect on the piano, and a poorly designed and executed "solid" board will.

I knew that you knew that and it's just that easy misuse of the word "resonance" when using the same language of the original poster that was your pitfall. Same pitfall I've tripped over myself.

Casalborgone's post in another thread resonated with me today when he said:

" This all would require a new vocabulary. As an example of this kind of thinking, there is a term "bokeh" which is Japanese which describes the quality of a photographic lens in the part of the image which is out-of-focus. In this sort of approach, we learn to look at, by inventing apposite language for important parts of our experience which we otherwise neglect."

The words we use, if ill-defined, mislead us and the things we don't even name escape our notice because they are not named. But once properly named and defined, we can understand them.

Unfortunately, I think the difficulties in marketing pianos with laminated boards will be hard to overcome. By the time the truth is widely enough known, carbon-fiber or other synthetics will probably be the nor, and with the world's deference to new "space-age" materials, they will be MUCH easier to market.

I think you are probably right. Overcoming the history of those "Story Tone" soundboards would be the same uphill battle proponents of safe helium-filled lighter-than-air dirigibles would have to overcome in getting past that hurdle of the renowned image of the hydrogen-filled Hindenburg burning in less than 10 seconds.

Nevermind that the absence of good spruce will affect laminated spruce production almost as quickly as solid-board production.

An earlier post about the comparison in verticals between spruce and carbon fiber boards sounds promising. I have an award-winning friend who specializes in carbon-fiber-based materials science. I've been after him for about 10 years to build me a carbon-nanotube board with the C-60 tubes oriented like grain in wood. The hindrence is cost. So that factor might make us both wrong. But his work in other carbon molecular structures beyond C-60 promises to bring down the cost while providing the same benefits of those strong linear-oriented molecules. Unfortunately the cost of prototypes is enormous compared to what can be achieved after scale-up to actual production.

I remember when a Texas Instrument calculator that did only + - * and / was $79.95!

Carbon fiber or a similar substitute will get cheap enough very quickly.

Forgive my ignorance on this subject--but as a musician who has had quite a bit of experience PLAYING instruments--many of them stringed (acoustic guitar, piano, dulcimer, etc.), I must say that I'm a little surprised by the apparent acceptance of laminated ANYTHING being a first or best choice for a musical instrument.

Does not the soundboard play a significant role not only in ampliflication of the sound, but ALSO in giving the sound it's unique shape and timbre? Is this not why aged wood in a soundboard sounds better than freshly cut wood, for example? I once saw a PBS special on the Stradavarius violin construction. True, things like lacquer also had an effect on making the sound so beautiful, but as I recall the very nature of how the pores of the wood react with the sound waves effects the sound. I certainly am no physicist (maybe there is one lurking about), but it stands to reason that the nature of how a solid piece of wood reacts to a sound wave would be VERY different from the way a laminated piece of wood would behave, given a similar quality.

SURELY the traditions of the very best handcrafting suggests that there are inherent advantages in the use of solid versus laminated construction. Am I that far off base?

Certainly the soundboard assembly as a whole does play a significant role in the tone production of the piano. And its mechanical characteristics do affect the way in which the vibrating energy coming from the strings is converted into sound energy. But it does not amplify. As a system it’s more of a mechanical transducer — an energy conversion system. It converts and transfers — transduces — vibrating energy from the piano’s strings into sound energy in the surrounding air.

The comparison between the violin and the piano soundboard comes up often, but the two systems are quite unrelated both in their structures and in what is expected of them. The stresses placed on the piano soundboard would instantly crush the violin. The spectrum across which the piano soundboard is expected to function is considerably greater, as is the dynamic range.

There is no basis for the idea that “aged wood in a soundboard sounds better than freshly cut wood.” Certainly not in piano soundboards and probably not even in violins where this claim is most often made. (Who is alive today who can verify that the tone quality of the Stradivarius violin of 1705 was somehow inferior to what it has become today?) While some few pianos possibly do sound better some years after their original construction it is not because of the soundboard wood aging but by several other fairly well known phenomena.

In the case of the piano soundboard assembly, what seems to stands to reason is not always how they function in real life. The piano soundboard is simply a vibrating diaphragm — driven by the vibrating energy of the strings — and there are any number of ways to make them and to make them work.

Del

Carbon fiber may well get cheaper but the resins needed to hold it together -- usually some variety of epoxy -- will not. It will track the price of oil. And we ain't making any more of that. At least not very fast.

Del

If this were really true it would be reason enough to instantly convert all piano production to laminated soundboard panels.

Unfortunately it is not. It just shifts the resonances around some.

Del

If a piano were made with as much downbearing as there is on a violin, I suspect that the piano would be in deep trouble!

I'm not certain how much stress there is on a soundboard. The tons of tension on the strings are mostly taken by the plate. Only a tiny fraction of that is downbearing. In fact, there's much more tension on the bridge than there is on the soundboard, because the offset is so much greater.

Depending on string tension and the balance between soundboard crown and string bearing the string downforce can range from a just couple of hundred pounds up to six or eight hundred pounds.

I weigh a bit over 200 pounds. I expect that if I stepped on the average violin it would lose.

Del

Old Engineering axiom: One experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions...so...

Borrow a Strad, sit on it, and report back...simple.

You are probably right, but I would still speculate that a new material will be developed in time to make the solid/laminated discussion moot.

The carbon-fiber based composites my friend in materials science makes for many applications do indeed use an epoxy base where the epoxy is formed in situ with the carbon via a sequence of chemical processes that allow a controllable orientation of the fibers. Currently, neither the carbon fibers nor the epoxy are cheap. Certainly not competitive with traditional spruce cost-wise any time soon. Methods of producing linear forms of carbon molecules are not coming down in price nearly as fast as many in the industry earlier assumed as production is very energy intensive and yields are like buckshot requiring significant grading of the product to collect the small portion that's suitable for a purpose. (And some of the more interesting carbon molecules that might be good for our use in piano soundboards are still running as high as $500 for a gram!) Already companies that presumed to produce in quantity are going broke trying. I figure some of the obstacles *will* be overcome, but there's no guarantee that something so energy intensive will become "cheap". What might be possible might simply be *better*. But better usually comes with a premium price tag. I just want to see the experiments progress, even if the best result is still by necessity in that rarified Steingraeber/Bosendorfer/Fazioli price class.

OK. Anyone out there have a used Strad they'd like to donate to the cause of intellectual enlightenment? Current condition is unimportant.

Del

Were you expecting to find someone with a brand new one?

A friend of mine brought one over many years ago, but it wasn't his. Actually, a copy would serve just as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if a violin could hold up to a couple hundred pounds. The difficulty is applying it in such a way that you don't ever put too much pressure on it. Wood is remarkably strong.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but there is already somebody building high performance concert pianos with laminated soundboards: Overs Pianos in Australia.
www.overspianos.com.au <- audio samples are there, somewhere.
Their website shows many details of the soundboard construction, as well as some innovative ribs and a new type of grand piano action.

Calin

I did the other day in the "innovation" thread, I believe, just not here and now where it'd be equally to the point. Just didn't want to repeat myself. But it's been in my mind while reading this thread.

Hi Steve, its been a long time since i've seen you . The last time i think i ran into you , I was buying the used damaged hammonds from the ware house in Linthicum. I now live in VA near the tennessee line. Id love to try the glass soundboards, dont have enough specs,,,,, Im gonna rebuild a 8'7" chickering 1897. the soundboards pressed would be around $4000 for a regular pieced soundboard. Would the glass/crystal board need crown???? etc???? Are carbon fiber boards available. How much does it cost for a Laminated Board???

Carbón fiber soundboards are already commercially available as part of Richard Dain's Phoenix technology offered as a very costly option on Steingraeber-Phoenix pianos, or, interestingly enough, at the same cost as a regular wooden sound board, on the Phoenix pianos from Hurstwood Farm Pianos in the UK.

Previous threads commenting on the strenghts and weaknesses of these implementations of carbón fiber soundboards have widely diverging opinions, going from great praise at one end to severe criticism on the other.

I'll like to use this opportunity to solicit the opinión of the experts.