Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.

Had to laugh at what knotty said about music being a shield from the kids. Just great!

Isn't the Levine book fantastic? This is a real eye-opener. I probably should have tackled it a while ago, but theory is so much tastier when you're hungry for it.

Levine is very good at explaining things, and not entirely without a sense of humour. Definition of 'refrain' - 'don't play - only kidding'

There were some chords that stumped me, but I think it's just a question of getting used to the idea that no chord is ever without the 7th and 9th (probably with a 6th thrown in too), while the 3rd, 5th and root are optional.

One thing, the delta sign with a line under it - is that a minor major 7th? Struggling to see what else it could be.

Yes a Major/Minor chord. He does have an index of symbols at the front.

It is good that you picked this up easily. Most people don't, because it's not organized as one would learn them. If you have a knack for theory then it is great to start with.

He has an index. It's not bl**dy there. I've since gone onto the bit about melodic minor harmony, where he discusses how the major minor chord is notated, but he doesn't include this one.

Honestly, I'd copy edit his book for him for free!



A lot of it I already knew. Some things are vague for me, so this is pinning them down. I'm also enjoying the examples. I've never seen music actually written out like this. The 'jazz' I have come across has been pretty harmonically simple. I'm thinking perhaps I should just buy myself some sheet music and play. Working it out with the real book is just painfully slow.

What I like about it is Levine goes to the trouble of explaining it historically. 'Play this. Hear the dissonance. Until 1940 this was off-limits, then so-and-so used it, and it's been accepted since the 1960'. And because I have been listening to jazz, it is beginning to make sense.

He does ask my question. "Since D Dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian are all just different forms of the C major scale, why not just think 'play in C major' on D Min7, G7 and C maj7?" (p37). Remember I asked this, or something very similar, in another thread? Shame he doesn't answer it, at least I've not come across an answer yet.

I think I answered this in the Non-Classical forum in a question on Modes. Of course it is also answered here because I say that for AL, you just play the G Major Scale. The entire AL can be said to be a circle of fifths movement inside the G Major Scale.


The answer I gave, and this is also in Levine's book, is to distinguish between HORIZONTAL and VERTICAL playing. If you can find a common scale between chords (i.e. identifying modes of the scale), then you realize that you can play horizontally.

Vertical playing is to respond chord by chord and think of a scale for each chord. This is how the old bebop style was originally played. It's a test of how quickly you can change scales.

Horizontal playing became a big thing during Miles Davis' time. And you look for a common scale.

Now it is never that simple. In this AL thread, we had several people try to improvise with just the simple premise of using the G Scale. Believe it or not, soloing along horizontal lines requires a lot of ear skill and understanding of common tones among chords. Everyone has difficulty with just being given one scale. It's like there are too many choices. Everyone feels their solo doesn't sound authentic even if the scale is correct.

Simply saying there is no wrong note suggests that you can hit any note and it will sound great. Yes the choice will be consonant to the chord, but it in no way contributes to defining the harmony. So what do I say on top of this horizontal playing? I say be aware of the chord tones.

As you know, within this scale of let's say 7 notes, the important chord tones are just some of these notes. You must be aware of them and some have more value than others. For example, the 1,3,5,7 of the chord is more important than the 9,11,13. It is actually an advanced concept to think of putting 1,3,5,7 on the downbeats.

But when you start doing this, your ear will naturally gravitate toward this and then you can just do whatever you want. Then you can forget the rule. In other words you begin to focus on the chord tones as the main harmonic tones and the rest as passing tones. In fact, passing tones could be chromatic and not even be in the scale.

In any case, it is important to understand modes because it simplifies finding these common scales in a tune and then further simplifies the visualization of chord tones.

Now, what you just said I can understand. And it's a good reason to practice, say, C major as C E G B D F A C, as we discussed (and I've been doing it). But bringing modes into it? Not necessary, as far as I can see.

Because if I'm doing the above example, and improvising over D Dorian, I am not going to play D E F G A B C D C B A G F E D, for obvious reasons.

I can accept that that's how jazzers talk and I need to learn the lingo. I just think it's put in a more complicated way than it needs to, that's all. Or, there's something about it I still don't understand...

Yes you are correct. But as you know the textbooks say play D Dorian as D E F G A B C D instead of what I'm saying here which is a step further as D F A C and extend to E G B as necessary. In a sense this is more complicated as we're putting another layer on top of the modes.

Now, mind you, the purpose of this is ear training. In jazz, you learn all the rules, so you learn how to break the rules. In reality I have no problem playing C# or F# in Dm7. But you have to know where and how. In fact, I will make full use of a chromatic scale (all 12) on a Dm7 if need be. However, I will always know to emphasize the major chord tones.

So I just want to be clear that this is not a strait jacket/permanent ban on anything beyond 1/3/5/7 of the chord. It is a training ground to understand that lack of randomness here. True jazz masters do not play at random (just like the Bill Evans video on "Approximation" discusses). An "approximator" will randomly play any note in D Dorian. A master will be aware of the downbeats.

I was listening to a workshop by a Jazz artist and he was talking about the origins of the Bebop scale.

Barb and I have had a discussion of the Bebop scale in this thread and it is the same as a major scale plus a chromatic tone. I remember Barb being exact about the extra 8th note in a bebop scale to be different for the Major scale, vs. the Dominant scale.

In truth, I never really cared where the chromatic note is because it is just a passing tone. The real purpose of the Bebop scale according to him (and I agree), is purely rhythmic. Chromaticism is used as approach notes to give you enough time to land on the appropriate chord tone. It's a trick to have exactly 8 notes and thus be able to land on a chord tone on a downbeat. When I use a bebop type scale, I will use any approach note as a chromatic "extra".

This goes to show how rhythmic jazz is (regardless of Gyro's statements to the contrary). This artist goes to say how it isn't so important what notes you picked but how it fits in the rhythmic framework. It's exactly right.

Often the phrasing (which always has a rhythmic quality) defines how beautiful a line is even though the notes used are finite. In most cases, your options are 4-5 notes per chord. Yet there is so much variety in jazz.

It isn't the notes that are complicated. Never was.

We had an online party today in honor of our leader, Jazzwee. Here is the link:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1280629/1.html

Come relive the fun!

I remember previously when I was improvising of Autumn Leaves, it was the point where I tried to put in quavers and be aware of downbeats - that was where I lost the plot.

This is having taken a step backward and limiting myself to crochets and rests, also trying not to move around too much:

http://www.box.net/shared/vj1gle6bqs

Would this count as 'honest' for Bill Evans, do you think?

That's honest TLT Good job.

Now next time give a little extra focus on the third, and then you can always add the 7th going to the 3rd (voice leading thing). Begin by having the 3rd sound as the 1st note in the chord.

This is ear training. You need to hear that changing harmony with those simple notes of 3 and 7. Once you get comfortable with that, you'll always know where to find those notes and then you can start to deviate.

Careful here, I remind you to look for ways to make a line cross over a couple of chords. Remember we don't try to start a line on beat 1.

This is part of developing that "honesty"

I like the tone of your playing BTW. It sounds more legato and that leads to good swing when you do eighth notes.

TLT, have you tried just doing 7 to 3 for all the chords? You need to really hear that. Do the 7 as a pickup at beat 4+ and then the 3rd at beat 1 (half note).

The concept of soloing is that the harmony is highlighted by the line.

I think I have an exercise in thirds as an MP3 somewhere in the index. Check it out.

I'll try it.

hey jazzwee,

getting back to the two handed linear playing, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xacKlTxQ2R8

Dave, that's really cool. Although I've watched him do this 2 handed stuff often, this is easy enough to watch to pick up the rhythmic interplay between the hands.

He surely makes himself sound like there's multiple players

Dave, Apparently Geoff Keezer is a big on 2 handed stuff too. But I haven't found any significant video to show this.

TLT, I've been really busy but I did want to continue with my comment on 3rds (and the point of a 3rds exercise).

If you listen to any jazz solo by a master, or if you transcribe it, you will find that solos have a particular harmonic structure. Some people in the Non-Classical Forum say, it's too structured to be improvisation. Well, the reality is that anyone can improvise with anything. But only those who develop the ear can improvise WELL.

And it's not even that hard. Chords have to be defined in the solo. As you know, all it takes is the interval of 3 and 7 of the chord to state the harmony. Try it out. A chord can be clearly be heard, even without a root, just with the 3rd and 7th of the chord. Thus, solos typically focus on these 2 notes and often the rest of the lines focus on GETTING TO the 3rd and 7th. Actually the 7th becomes the 3rd in a ii-V progression so it's a half step away.

So to hear this, first start with just the 3rd. Then create a solo with just 2 notes per chord. An approach note to the 3rd and then the 3rd itself. You can approach the 3rd from above, below, a fifth away, a fourth away, there's so many possibilities. The 3rd need not occur on Beat 1. It can occur on beat 1,2,3,4.

So learn to get to the third with one approach note. Then 2 approach notes. Then 3 approach notes. But TARGET THE THIRD. Do this with every chord.

What will happen is that the 3rd will be so ingrained in your hearing that from the moment you play the chord, you already know it will be some play on the 3rd.

The Tune All the Things You Are, which I've posted several times, is based on 3rds in the melody. Practically every melody note is a 3rd. Many many tunes have melodies based on 3rds, which show its importance.

I know that in another thread, it was mentioned that solos have no structure. That may be true AFTER YOU HAVE LEARNED TO HEAR.

What we don't want to do is play from memorized finger moves. When the time comes to improvise this method will make you freeze. A solo is like a conversation in your head/ears. We will train those ears to first put a focus on 3rds.

So this is a nice progression from what you've already done which is to pick out the chord tones. That was excellent that you can now do that. Now use those chord tones to get to the third. And then add any other note as an approach to the third. Start from a half step or a step away to be comfortable.

Make lines like 8th+Half Note. Then 8th + Quarter Note. Keep it simple and "honest".

Think of those thirds.

that's a great way to start!

and like you've said jazzwee, the approach tones are played on the upbeats. and you usually--but not always--resolve to the 3rd--or chord tone--on the downbeat.

you hear this all the time in bebop.

jazzwee,

yeah, mehldau is great at creating multiple lines in his solos.

did you hear marian mcpartland's piano jazz when mehldau was the guest on the show? he plays "from this moment on" and he gets into the 2 handed thing. it's really nice. he talks a little about it in the interview and the idea of getting multiple voices going together.

it's pretty interesting.

Hi gang!

Autumn Leaves, sticking to the 3rd on beat 1, preceded by a pickup note:

http://www.box.net/shared/h5urrm7fh5

What I found with this was it was OK, even easy, if I just concentrated on the 3rd. Get the 3rd on beat 1, with the note above it on 4+. But if I ever started to think about that pickup note as being the 7th of the preceding chord, then my brain went into complete systems failure. I can't think about the 7th of one chord at the same time as thinking about the 3rd of another chord.

So that's one thing. Incidentally, jazzwee, in the Montonu for Monty I posted for the party, I made a point of improvising on 4+ and 1. I just stuck to that rhythm, and put in any old notes.

I also just recorded On Green Dolphin Street (Kaper, arr Richards) from his book:

http://www.box.net/shared/knx7es5af4

I quite like the harmonies in it.

I think (don't quote me) I've now worked out how to use this book. I now ignore most of what he says. He goes into a lot of detail about quite complex improvising, arpeggios up and down the piano. But I just feel like, if I could do that, I wouldn't need a book like this. So I ignore all that stuff.

But, the arrangements are nice, and I do need new material all the time to keep me going and improvising. I get a lot more out of his arrangements than I do out of the fakebook, and it's helping me build up a repertoire of 'tunes that I recognise'. I did that with the ABRSM material - just pick a tune and play it - till I exhausted the book. So now I'll do that with Exploring Jazz Piano, hopefully get through it reasonably quickly, and move on.

I suppose I just needed to give myself permission not to do *all* of the exercises in the book!

I did look at All the Things You Are from the fakebook, and I've made a bit of a start on it, but I need to get my fingers round the harmonies before I can do anything else.

TLT, do you see (hear) what happens with that 3rd exercise? Without even trying to solo, you CANNOT make it not sound good. So you see why this is always central to a solo to always be aware of the third.

Now in real playing, the third need not occur at any particular beat. But it does get used quite often. This is VERY HONEST playing But try to be conscious (at least during this ear training period) of how to integrate the 3rd into the melody. Most melodies are heavy on 3rds.

I know this sounds almost mathematical and someone will say that this is too structured. But it is a fact. And it is true in Classical music or any other music. Our ear is drawn to this structure.

When playing around with the third as central to the structure, try arpeggiating TO THE THIRD, and STEPPING TO THE THIRD (half step or step). Just hear this in your head and know how to get there.

Again I emphasize that I was taught these rules as I teach you. BUT once you know the rules, later on you will know how to break them. This is just ear training. By no means does this dictate what you should play later on. Although, I guarantee that any good solo will have a bunch of thirds in it.

Dave is right that approach notes + 3rds is very common in bebop.