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#1281194 - 10/05/09 12:57 PM Schimmel Bankrupt?
stein-wegge the Vth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/04
Posts: 152
Loc: Los Angeles
I was reading a German news source claiming that Seiler and Schimmel were in trouble financially.
I have always loved the Schimmel and hope that this is not completely true.....any info from industry insiders?
Thanks
_________________________
Greg Walters

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#1281197 - 10/05/09 12:59 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: stein-wegge the Vth]
stein-wegge the Vth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/04
Posts: 152
Loc: Los Angeles
Sorry I meant to post the source of this info.

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20090927-22187.html
_________________________
Greg Walters

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#1281225 - 10/05/09 01:36 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: stein-wegge the Vth]
Robert 45 Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1115
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Thank you, Greg. It is sad news indeed when piano makers of distinction like Schimmel and Seiler are reduced to this.

Piano makers depend on the sales of new pianos for their economic survival. The veritable deluge of cheaper and improving pianos from China has taken its toll on even the established European makers.

The gradual demise of these great European manufacturers is for some a crying shame, but for others an economic reality.

Kind regards,

Robert.

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#1281266 - 10/05/09 02:25 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Robert 45]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10338
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Seiler was purchased by Samick and, I believe left in tact.

Schimmel is, I believe, working their way out of bankruptcy.

So, all is not as bad as it seems.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1281285 - 10/05/09 03:00 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Steve Cohen]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
I wonder how the current difficulties some manufacturers are facing compare with the problems Steinway has faced during various periods in their history. I don't remember the details because I read the book about Steinway's history a while ago(a terrific read), but as I recall they had quite a few periods where they almost didn't survive.

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#1281554 - 10/06/09 03:30 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: stein-wegge the Vth]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 431
Loc: Münster, Germany
Originally Posted By: stein-wegge the Vth
I was reading a German news source claiming that Seiler and Schimmel were in trouble financially.


Rönisch too:

http://www.nmz.de/kiz/nachrichten/tradit...et-insolvenz-an

Gregor
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#1281604 - 10/06/09 07:34 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Gregor]
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 1290
Loc: Toronto
Schimmel's problems with sales volume were not helped by price increases over the past couple of years that moved them close to Steinway pricing (notwithstanding equally ill-advised Steinway price increases). The article says that Schimmel declared bankruptcy. Not sure exactly what that means in Germany but it probably just means that they don't have to pay their bills for a while, giving them the chance to "re-structure". Wishing them luck but I won't be buying one any time soon. Nice piano but over-priced, at least around here.
_________________________
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
Will Rogers


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#1281635 - 10/06/09 09:16 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Starting Over]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
Schimmel is one of my favourite brands but prices have rocketed in the UK over the past couple of years. They used to be great value and sat squarely inbetween the likes of Yamaha and the top German makes. On a recent trip to the UK main Schimmel dealer I noticed the K132 upright had a sticker price of £18000 (yes I did say upright!). That's similar money to a Bluthner B or a Bechstein concert 8. Discounts might make a big difference of course.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#1281702 - 10/06/09 11:09 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Chris H.]
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
The emergence, or not as the case may be, of Schimmel from administration proceedings, will inevitably depend on there being a credibly successful business plan as well as a deal with creditors. The German / central European piano manufacturing sector appears to be saturated with surplus supply and hit by dramatically insufficient customers.

Schimmel have pretty much priced themselves out of the market in the UK and elsewhere. One wonders if they have fallen into the often encountered accountancy led trap of putting up prices in a vain attempt to compensate for falling sales, hence strategically hastening their own demise.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#1281704 - 10/06/09 11:13 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: AJB]
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 1290
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: AJB


Schimmel have pretty much priced themselves out of the market in the UK and elsewhere. One wonders if they have fallen into the often encountered accountancy led trap of putting up prices in a vain attempt to compensate for falling sales, hence strategically hastening their own demise.




I think that pretty much sums it up...
_________________________
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
Will Rogers


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#1281776 - 10/06/09 01:17 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Starting Over]
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1700
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
While some piano makers in Germany are suffering, others are using their resources to gain strength, and hope to emerge in better position at the end of this economic downturn.

In the article, Mr. Stein is quoted as saying that: 'The firm Leipziger Pianoforte has had to halt production completely'.

This was indeed true, however, to provide Mr. Stein with news he may not be aware of, the 'Lipziger Piano Fabric', who made both Ronish and another less known line of pianos, Hupfeld, was recently purchased by Bluthner, and actually resumed production under the new ownership.

Bluthner's purchase of this company demonstrates the opportunities that some of the stronger piano makers in Germany have these days.


To clarify further, 'the National Piano Makers Association of Germany (BK)', have a rotating chairman each year from amongst the 12 more known piano makers.
This year, it is Grotrian's Burkhard Stein's turn. Nest year, it will be someone else’s turn.

As the rotating head of the BK, Mr. Stein would be the logical candidate to interview for such an article, however, I would not automatically assume that because of his temporary position, his remarks reflect the state of ALL German manufacturers, but rather of only those that his intimately familiar with...starting perhaps with the company he heads.


Stein Veggie,

It’s interesting to see you posting again, say hello to old buddies from the past...

As you probably know through your past posting history, if those having some inside knowledge of the industry decide to share it here, and especially if it relates to a manufacturers less than positive actions or stability, we are likely to be confronted with multiple responses as to our agendas and intentions, rather than appreciation for the information.

I’m sure that others, just as I did, had clear knowledge of the issues with Schimmel months before it filed for bankruptcy, and months before the subject was discussed on any website.
However, we also learned that it’s better to keep such information to ourselves.

_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

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#1281818 - 10/06/09 02:26 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Ori]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Ori, glad to learn that Bluthner is strong enough to rescue another brand.

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#1282009 - 10/06/09 09:25 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Ori]
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 441
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Originally Posted By: Ori


In the article, Mr. Stein is quoted as saying that: 'The firm Leipziger Pianoforte has had to halt production completely'.

This was indeed true, however, to provide Mr. Stein with news he may not be aware of, the 'Lipziger Piano Fabric', who made both Ronish and another less known line of pianos, Hupfeld, was recently purchased by Bluthner, and actually resumed production under the new ownership.

Blunther's purchase of this company demonstrates the opportunities that some of the stronger piano makers in Germany have these days.


To clarify further, 'the National Piano Makers Association of Germany (BK)', have a rotating chairman each year from amongst the 12 more known piano makers.
This year, it is Grotrian's Burkhard Stein's turn. Nest year, it will be someone else’s turn.

As the rotating head of the BK, Mr. Stein would be the logical candidate to interview for such an article, however, I would not automatically assume that because of his temporary position, his remarks reflect the state of ALL German manufacturers, but rather of only those that his intimately familiar with...starting perhaps with the company he heads.



Ori,

Read the article more carefully.

Mr. Stein is not quoted as you suggest. It's the author of the article who makes the statement you attribute to Stein. Furthermore, you seem to be taking certain statements of the article out of context to somehow impugn Mr. Stein's credibility and Grotrian's performance. No bother - for those of us who know Burkhard personally and professionally, we know that his integrity is beyond reproach.

On another note, I'm certain that Mr. Stein is "aware" of the news you bring here to PW concerning the purchase of the Leipziger Pianoforte firm unless, of course, it's of relatively minimal importance.

BC
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

Member of the Faust Harrison Pianos sales team.

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#1282207 - 10/07/09 06:36 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Ori]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 431
Loc: Münster, Germany
Originally Posted By: Ori

the 'Lipziger Piano Fabric', who made both Ronish and another less known line of pianos, Hupfeld, was recently purchased by Bluthner, and actually resumed production under the new ownership.


What do you mean by recently? 1997 Pfeiffer bought Rönisch and Rönisch went bankrupt in August this year. Was Rönisch sold to Blüthner this year?

Gregor
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#1282464 - 10/07/09 01:20 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Gregor]
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1700
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .

Gregor,

The purchase was made within the last couple of months.


Chris,

I do not attempt to 'impugn Mr. Stein's credibility and Grotrian's performance' as you suggest, to explain that he is the current head of the BK due to a rotation system, and that he is not likely to be privy as to how all other companies are affected by, or viewing this recession.

To give you an example, there is no doubt that 2009 shall be remembered as a year of severe economic downturn, with very difficult real estate market.
Yet, I have friend that during the course of the year bought the mortgages or deeds of several THOUSANDS of real estate properties all across the US, paying pennies on the dollar.

While he too knows that we are in a midst of a severe recession, and may have even suffered losses on some previous investments, he considers this period to be one of great opportunity rather than a bust.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

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#1282492 - 10/07/09 01:59 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Ori]
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 441
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Originally Posted By: Ori

Gregor,

The purchase was made within the last couple of months.


Chris,

I do not attempt to 'impugn Mr. Stein's credibility and Grotrian's performance' as you suggest, to explain that he is the current head of the BK due to a rotation system, and that he is not likely to be privy as to how all other companies are affected by, or viewing this recession.




The readers of the forum can draw their own conclusions regarding your intentions. Insofar as the head of BK or anyone else being privy to the state of German piano corporations, the financial statements of all of these companies are a matter of public record according to German law and readily available online. No big secret.

BC
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

Member of the Faust Harrison Pianos sales team.

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#1282807 - 10/08/09 03:10 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Beacon Chris]
mjs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 365
Loc: München, Germany
Chris,

since most German piano manufacturers are private companies, they are not necessarily (depending on the company form chosen) required to publish accounts. The only piano manufacturer in Germany (apart from Steinway & Sons, which operates as part of an American firm) which is a public company (and therefore required to publish full financial statements), is C. Bechstein.

Markus
_________________________
Steingraeber D-232 # 45 777
Neupert Telemann harpsichord

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#1282830 - 10/08/09 05:47 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: mjs]
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 441
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Markus,

I'm certain this has changed in recent years as I, myself, have seen all of these statements online. If I have some time, I'll find the web address for you. Since I'm not in the habit of gossiping about piano brands ad nauseum I don't have the site bookmarked or anything.

Thanks for the interest.
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

Member of the Faust Harrison Pianos sales team.

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#1282841 - 10/08/09 06:42 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Beacon Chris]
mjs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 365
Loc: München, Germany
That would be the ebundesanzeiger.de. Only companies in form of an AG (public listed company) and a GmbH (limited liability company) are required to do so. Not all piano manufacturers fall in that category. And: smaller companies have over a year after the end of their business year to file, so the information is not exactly up to date.
_________________________
Steingraeber D-232 # 45 777
Neupert Telemann harpsichord

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#1283157 - 10/08/09 03:51 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: mjs]
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1700
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .

MJS,

Thank you for providing Chris with an explanation regarding the difference between the publicly held and privately held companies, and Gmbh.

Chris,


As I said before:

Those having some inside knowledge of the industry and decide to share it here, and especially if it relates to a manufacturers less than positive actions or stability, are likely to be confronted with multiple responses as to our agendas and intentions, rather than appreciation for the information.


Thank you too for supporting the above by your remarks, and demonstrating the reason readers (like you?) find out about things months/years after they happened and only after they become 'public knowledge', rather than as they occur.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

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#1283182 - 10/08/09 04:41 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Ori]
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Hilarious. A piano dealer in America reckons he has up to date inside information on the financial position of piano manufactures in Germany!

And other people believe that the limited and hugely out of date information that is published on German companies (largely un-audited, tax oriented and taking full advantage of the rules for minimal disclosure, not to mention the almost complete lack of enforcement of absent or late reporting....) is in some way meaningful.

And if the companies have publicly traded shares, or (more likely) if the rights of unpaid third party creditors are adversely affected. (say because they did not have this inside information and continued to extend credit).....there are European laws penalizing the dissemination of inside information in such circumstances, so bragging about it could hurt the idiot in the company that handed it out as well, potentially, as the recipient.

Absurd.

AJB
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#1283189 - 10/08/09 04:57 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Starting Over]
MarKey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 235
Maybe now the piano manufactures and dealers will realize their pianos are way overpriced and adjust according to the value and the market. Come on, Kawai and Yamaha price increases are buy them right out of the industry. I'm thankful for the impact the China pianos have made in terms of pricing and value. I hope the adjustment will hit those Tier 1 and Tier 2 pianos sooner than later and finally people can pay a decent price for a decent piano. laugh


Edited by MarKey (10/08/09 05:04 PM)
_________________________
Time's a tickin!

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#1283250 - 10/08/09 06:57 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Ori]
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 441
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Originally Posted By: Ori

MJS,

Thank you for providing Chris with an explanation regarding the difference between the publicly held and privately held companies, and Gmbh.

Chris,


As I said before:

Those having some inside knowledge of the industry and decide to share it here, and especially if it relates to a manufacturers less than positive actions or stability, are likely to be confronted with multiple responses as to our agendas and intentions, rather than appreciation for the information.


Thank you too for supporting the above by your remarks, and demonstrating the reason readers (like you?) find out about things months/years after they happened and only after they become 'public knowledge', rather than as they occur.


Ori,

Thank you for your condescending tone. There are many dealers of fine pianos who participate on this forum or choose not to participate on this forum who are privy to the same information you share and other information you are not aware of. I'm one of these people. I personally don't feel need to announce with fanfare every small move in the industry in order to ingratiate myself with the folks here at PianoWorld. I choose, instead, to share this information with my customers at my store when they make an important purchasing decision. It's my style. You and I both know it doesn't make you any smarter or more informed than me - (even though you might think it does)

Going back to your first post, you conflated words by the author of an article with the quotes from Mr. Stein in order to cast doubt on his knowledge of the piano industry. Why? What nice about that? It's not informative, it's misleading. I'm sorry, but I had to chime in.

I most certainly know the difference between a public and private company, and yet you throw this barb at me in your comments to another forum member? Please. By the way, the information in the discussed website is not at all irrelevant. Just the opposite - it is recent public record that projects very important trends right into current times. It's essential numbers without any dealer spin.

I am your competitor. I called you rather gently on the carpet regarding your comments about Mr. Stein who happens to be the managing director of a brand I represent. You most certainly wouldn't have made the same comments regarding the managing director of a brand you do represent. You and I both know this. I would NEVER make the same inference about an industry executive on this forum - it's not appropriate.

Your response to me is a put down. I'm not the first nor will I be the last. You should, however, show more respect to others in the industry -

BC
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

Member of the Faust Harrison Pianos sales team.

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#1283271 - 10/08/09 07:41 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Beacon Chris]
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1700
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Chris,

I wrote before:


Those having some inside knowledge of the industry and decide to share it here, and especially if it relates to a manufacturers less than positive actions or stability, are likely to be confronted with multiple responses as to our agendas and intentions, rather than appreciation for the information.

Enough said.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#1283276 - 10/08/09 07:49 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Ori]
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 441
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Originally Posted By: Ori
Chris,

I wrote before:


Those having some inside knowledge of the industry and decide to share it here, and especially if it relates to a manufacturers less than positive actions or stability, are likely to be confronted with multiple responses as to our agendas and intentions, rather than appreciation for the information.

Enough said.


Whatever...
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

Member of the Faust Harrison Pianos sales team.

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#1283778 - 10/09/09 01:21 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Beacon Chris]
SeilerFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 746
And yet another thread where dealers attack each other. How unnecessary. I for one appreciate Ori's information as I didn't know about Bluethner's purchase of Leipziger Pianofortefabrik. I highly doubt that he is ingratiating himself with the PWF membership by doing so. I don't have a chance to walk into a piano store that sells Hupfeld in my neck of the wood and get the drift from a dealer, and thus I read PWF.

How about just sharing information on here without the bickering about who is more or less informed?

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#1283799 - 10/09/09 01:42 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: SeilerFan]
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Information is good. But Chris was well within his rights to protest subtle digs at Burkhard Stein (whom I know as well). If one person takes the floor and stands alone, that possession of the floor conveys ownership. To offer another perspective is risky too, as Chris discovered. You become just another bickering dealer.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

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#1284166 - 10/10/09 04:05 AM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: SeilerFan]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 431
Loc: Münster, Germany
Originally Posted By: SeilerFan
I don't have a chance to walk into a piano store that sells Hupfeld in my neck of the wood


No wonder. As far I know Pianofortefabrik Leipzig gave up the brand name Hupfeld a few years ago. The pianos were the same like Rönisch. E.g. the Hupfeld 122K was identical to the Rönisch 123K.

Gregor
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#1284835 - 10/11/09 12:17 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: Gregor]
twfay Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/03/09
Posts: 6
Loc: singapore
If not wrong ,Pearl River will take over Schimmel by end of the year.

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#1284877 - 10/11/09 01:03 PM Re: Schimmel Bankrupt? [Re: twfay]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1833
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: twfay
If not wrong ,Pearl River will take over Schimmel by end of the year.


twfay,
Is this a guess, wishful thinking, or do you have a source for this statement? And, if so can we expect additional information in the near future?
_________________________



Schimmel K213 NWS




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