Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Self imposed limits of success?

Hello everyone

I've come across a curious stigma attached to a lot of adult piano learners (or more generally any late(r) in life music learners). There seems to be a somewhat accepted understanding (on both the part of professionals/teachers and the students themselves) that said adult learners will never progress beyond the basics of musicianship.

This is to say that I read about many older students, who have practiced for 2-3years to get through Alfred's book 2 and accept that this is the best they will ever do...never aspiring to move on to more difficult repertoire.

Would you say this a product of the learner being satisfied with their own level of education or a frame of mind imposed upon them by the community at large, that because they are an adult music learner than can never attain the level of depth and understanding that a child learner can reach?

Very rarely, if ever, have I heard of success stories of adult learners being able to tackle extremely advanced pieces,perform or make a second career out of their music or even begin to teach.

There are some obvious traditions in classical theaters that make a performance career for adult student difficult but that's a different ball of wax rooted in many older customs. Or perhaps those same traditions/customs are the limiting factors in other arenas such as pop or jazz?

No real right answer on this, just a thought provoking statement. I'm curious as to what other adult beginners think about their own education and what their plans are for using it in the future.

Personally, I began taking lessons at age 25 (3 years ago). My ultimate goal is to teach and play local gigs when i retire. This is of course after pursuing an undergrad and graduate degree in piano performance and pedagogy (won't be starting it for another 10yrs obviously, but I'm comfortable with that). I understand the degrees aren't necessary, but its a personal goal I plan to achieve.

Thanks,
RXB

In my case it's simply a matter of I have X amount of free time for practice coupled with a lack of desire to tackle seriously hard pieces.

To me, learning to play the piano is fun, and entertaining. I have no ambitions to become an accomplished pianist/musician. Yet, my casual encounter with the piano and my meager musical skills has lead to a lot of complements, fun, entertainment, enjoyment and self satisfaction.
I do, however, wish I had pursued learning to play the piano when I was younger, but my parents didn’t have a piano, nor did I have access to one, with the exception of occasional church attendance.
I really admire and appreciate someone who can dedicate themselves to the intensive and exhaustive study of piano and who excels to become an accomplished pianist. I think it is a marvelous thing.

But, at my age, the fun factor is the most important thing.

Take care,

Rick

I agree with noxiousdog ... adults have responsibilities as well as priorities that tend to get in the way. At 25, I would think all is possible if you have the time and desire and are without too many liabilities, self-imposed and or physical. The older you get the latter portion of the previous sentence becomes garingly apparent.

I think it's just that kids get over the boring-sounding stage of playing a musical instrument before they have the maturity to understand that it really doesn't sound good, till they get better. Adults can learn just as well, imo.

Still, it takes 10 years to get really good at anything.

Welcome to the forum, RX-Blak! I'm guessing from your login name that you have one of those new Kawai grands with the cool logo.

I'm a firm believer in the power of self-fulfilling prophecies (I did my graduate work on them, in fact). So I agree with you that the process you describe could well be accounting for a lot of adult beginners' failure to advance. Too many limitations in life turn out to be self-imposed and/or artificial. (I'll stop here before beginning to sound like Jonathan Livingston Seagull. )

However, I also think that there are other processes going on, too, that the others have alluded to. For me, I don't particularly want to become extremely advanced. I just want to become good enough to play most of the pieces I want to be able to play at a level I'm happy with. Because I'm largely satisfied with where I'm at, I haven't invested the effort that would be involved in becoming more advanced, i.e., finding a good teacher, quitting my job and practicing more, etc. etc. So in that sense I fit your first category of adults who are satisfied with their current educational level.

That being said, I do believe that adults who invest the time and effort would be able to master advanced repertoire.

Well, I get home from work around 6 pm, then it take around an hour to make and eat some supper. Then I could practice max an hour and a half. After that I'm worried about disturbing neighbours, and I need to do things like paying bills, ironing, maybe watch some tv until 9:30 when I usually start preparing to go to sleep. 1.5 hours isn't much if you want to prepare for a career. And some days I have to go shopping or do an errand which makes the available time even shorter.

So what's left? Asking my employer to reduce working time? But I doubt I would mange finacially doing that right now, maybe in a few years? Nevertheless, it would take over ten years before I could start earning some money at all from music, and then both salary and job security would be considerably lower then in my current field, and I would be competeing with people who spent their whole lives at the piano. How could I possibly compete in an audition or attract students to a studio when so many other pianists would have more experience then me?

If someone would offer me a sholarship, and said they would give me halv my current salary for ten years if I use an additional 4 h a day practicing, I would probably take the offer at once though.

I have no goals of becoming a professional performer. I am heavily attracted to more difficult repertoire and have firm goals of playing these in the future (with no designation what the "future" is). My first serious checkpoint is complete Moonlight Sonata, 3rd movement included. My last checkpoint... or maybe better said, the moment when I will no longer think about checkpoints, because nothing will seem impossible, is tackling the Concerto for Solo Piano by Alkan. And I know one thing for sure - this is achievable, and I will manage to do so. Maybe the timeframe will be very, very, VERY long - but it will happen one day.


M.

Dang, the paint isn't even dry on these threads:

Is there such a thing as an "adult prodigy"?

Realistic Goals as adults/late starter

Steven

Doh! I guess that's what i get for being a new guy. Thanks for the links Steven, good reads there

You're welcome, though it turns out that people have some new thoughts on the subject, too.

Welcome to the forums!

Steven

Monica,

I almost have it. I've played it, fell in love with it (and the logo, rofl) and purchased it. Unfortunately the new wood floors don't get installed til Friday so it wont be delivered till Saturday. (I've been waiting 3wks for the darn floor installers...its been rough to say the least)

RXB

I'm sure there are a few exceptions who can still make it quite far even if they start as adult but I'm sure that's a very insignificant amount compared to those starting at young age. Its going to be impossible to catch up to the lost hours from those ages (even if you play 10 hours a day, your body needs rest just like athletes do.)

Then I'm only assuming there's a sensitive period learning to play the piano, but thats only a wild guess. Like its much easier for a child to learn a 2nd language than it is for adults (at least for the majority) and it gets harder as you age. That is why they start learning English early in school in countries that doesn't have it as their mother tongue. But its only a sensitive period, its possible but its harder. Might not be that way with playing the piano, but its not unlikely.

25 is not exactly over the hill, in another 25 years you will be 50 years old with 25 years piano experience. "I'm too old", and "maybe when I was younger" are nice excuses for pretty much anything. Just have fun and take it easy everyone gets frustrated.

I personally find that activities which I learned to do as a child come more naturally for me as an adult, whereas skills I learned later in life tend to be less fully developed.

For example, I started using a computer mouse with a first generation Macintosh back in 1985 (actually a Lisa, for those who know Apple history), and the past 20 years I have spent insanely many hours per day on computers with mice or trackpads, yet I would say that my skills with a mouse or trackpad are significantly below those of a teenager who has grown up using computers. This in spite of the fact that I've been using computers for longer than said teenager has been alive, and yet the teenager has the advantage of having grown up exercising this skill, whereas I was already 25 years old when I handled my first computer mouse.

So when I play a game like Fast Keys, I find that the limiting factor is not my speed in identifying what notes I'm seeing, but my ill-coordination in the act of moving the cursor around on the screen. It's actually quite annoying.

Before I started playing piano again, I had been messing around with pennywhistles and recorders for about 4 years (albeit with pauses for discouragement). I got discouraged because I was just clumsy with the physical skill of fingering the instrument, particularly when playing Irish music on the tin whistle, where you articulate notes solely by fingering, not with tonguing like on most wind instrument music -- this means your fingering has to be extremely crisp and precise. And mine just wasn't that clean, despite months then years of practice.

Yet when I started playing the piano, my fingering was much cleaner and more rhythmic than it had been on the whistle or recorder, and the whole instrument just generally far more comfortable to me. I really think this is because I had piano lessons for maybe a year and a half when I was young. In spite of the fact that I rarely practiced and was eventually fired from piano lessons "for lack of aptitude or application," the skill of fingering the keys of the piano had been imprinted on my nervous system when I was at a much more impressionable age. Though my childhood self put in far less practice time on the piano than my adult self put in on the tin whistle, the desultory childhood practice seemed to make a much deeper impression.

So, just from personal experience, I tend to think there is a neurological advantage to learning skills in childhood.

I think it is a state of mind. It is very convenient for an adult to give up using the excuse that they are simply too old. Granted you likely won't become the next Mozart, but you can still become very good. I'm a late beginner myself and I'm pretty good and getting better all the time. Its hard work though, so be prepared for a long commitment if you are really going to become proficient at the piano.

Before you started your graduate work was it your ultimately self-fulfilled prophecy that you would end up being a firm believer in the power of self-fulfilling propecies?

JF

Interesting subject. I think it's probably try that when we learn skills in childhood, the neural pathways in our young brains get hard-wired in a way that is less likely to occur later as adults. However, I think the biggest obstacle to skill acquisition for us as adults are psychological and self imposed. I'm 55 and got serious about learning piano 3 years ago. Just yesterday at my piano lesson my teacher told me how amazed she was at how much I have progressed in a short time. I do practice a lot, and have been surprised to find that if I just practice hard passages diligently, progress inevitably occurs. I do want to become a great pianist and to stay motivated I tell myself that anything is possible.

As adults, our life experience can contribute to good keyboard skills. Things like discipline, motivation, and appreciation for the beauty of music are examples of things that we bring to the piano that children may not have developed yet.

Consider trying a trackball. A while back I was having some carpal tunnel issues, and swirched to using a trackball with my left hand. Although I'm right handed, I found it easy to learn to use the trackball left handed. If you do this, I would recommend leaving the buttons set up as if you were still using a right handed mouse. I use my ring finger on the button and my index finger and thumb to roll the ball.

Just having different wording for a similar subject gets people thinking about it in a way they may not have for the earlier threads.