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#1290042 - 10/19/09 06:40 PM Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group
HomeInMyShoes Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 495
Schumann's Kinderszenen might be my favourite group of pieces ever and is on my list of "in my dream world repertoire". If you haven't watched Horowitz in Vienna. Do so now. It'll take about 18 minutes of your life, but you'll thank yourself for spending the time.

Horowitz in Vienna

Okay, now that you're in love with this music, hop along and start learning a bit of it and tell us how it's going. So even if you've just always wanted to learn Träumerei (no. 7) hop in and tell us how it's going. Tough bits? Interpretive nightmares? I don't think I'll ever manage?

Currently, I can play reasonably 1, 4, 7. I've got good portions of 2, 6 and am working on 8 right now. I've been working on this for a while. It's one of two books that has permanent resident status by my piano.

I'll start off by giving a recording of 1 and 7 to start.

1 - Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen
7 - Träumerei

I need to work on 1 and get it proper and I'm not sure I'll ever handle the pace of 8 properly.

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#1290055 - 10/19/09 06:56 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: HomeInMyShoes]
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
I'm working my way trough 3 (Hasche Mann) right now, for the next year Schumann recital. I plan on learning the whole thing one day, but now have different pieces to study.

The piece seems ridiculously easily when looking at the sheet music - lots of repetitions and no difficult figuratuions. BUT, bringing it to speed is just a totally different story.

Here it is by Lang Lang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MRXOBJOZXo

I don't particularly like his performance, Argerich is WAY better. But I couldn't find it isolated. Here it is the first 10 minutes of Kinderszenen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYfq6jM1c-8

Hasche Mann starts at ~3:00.

I'd be glad to participate in this group, of course if doing just the 3rd as for now is fine! smile


M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#1290063 - 10/19/09 07:02 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Mati]
HomeInMyShoes Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 495
Doing whatever bits and pieces you want to is fine. I'm not deluding myself in thinking I'll achieve this in the next few years (no. 9 will probably not be completed by my deathbed). smile

I'm hoping this is simply a place to drop ideas, exchange frustrations, and share recordings when anyone thinks they are reasonable.

All the pieces are deceptively easy looking.

Best of luck on 3. I think I sight read it a few months ago at about a tempo of 20. I put it aside. 4 and 8 are on my list to learn for the Schumann recital.

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#1290126 - 10/19/09 08:29 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: HomeInMyShoes]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
I have also been learning some of these pieces.

I just started lessons again in Aug. and my teacher assigned me #1 which I really enjoyed playing. BTW Home, your recordings are very nice!

#1 wasn't too difficult. Then my teacher gave me Traumerei (#7) at the end of Aug.-I'm still working on it. You are SO right in saying that it seems deceptively simple. It isn't!

Some of the advice I've been given on Traumerei is; remember where the melody is and bring it out, don't play too fast, and remember the title (Little dream) so it's rather delicate.

Since I've been having lessons with Traumerei, it seems as though it's a different piece of music for me about every week.
There really is alot in there.

My biggest problem was trying to play it too softly and then losing notes. So I kind of have to ignore the piano and pp markings, but that's just me. (I seem to be a little tentative in my playing).

My thoughts so far. I'm happy to see you've started this thread. I hope it stays alive.

I hope to move on to #8 this week as my husband is REALLY tired of hearing me play Traumerei. laugh

I think "Am Kamin " (#8) will probably be next. I hope so.

Cheers!
CMohr
_________________________
Think less - play more



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#1290444 - 10/20/09 10:32 AM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: HomeInMyShoes]
Manndrew Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 267
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: HomeInMyShoes

I'll start off by giving a recording of 1 and 7 to start.

1 - Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen
7 - Träumerei

I need to work on 1 and get it proper and I'm not sure I'll ever handle the pace of 8 properly.


"Home",

This is such an unbelievable coincidence. Recently I became a grandfather and my wife and I started taping these wonderful musical children's animated "Classical Baby" programs that were on HBO. One of the songs was the #1 from Schumann. I decided to learn the piece since we want to expose our granddaughter to music right from the beginning. I really love this and yours is wonderful. I especially like the way you slowed the tempo down a bit before reintroducing the beginning theme. My only question would be the overall tempo may be a little too fast. What do you think?

Andy
_________________________

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#1290447 - 10/20/09 10:35 AM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: CMohr]
Sam S Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1406
Loc: Georgia, USA
The reason Traumerei is so difficult to memorize, in my humble opinion, is that the same phrase is repeated eight times with five different harmonizations. I "memorized" it about six months ago. I play it now, almost every day, just to keep it under my fingers. I still make mistakes, practically every time. Is this the repeat with the f# or the c#? Is this the one with the Ab or the A? Relying on muscle memory for this piece doesn't work well for me since the repeats have such subtle differences. I have to remember a different key point about each phrase to get it right, and I can't allow my mind to wander.

So playing traumerei from memory is not a trivial task. The effort required for me to do it does not mix well with the mood I want the music to convey...

Sam

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#1290557 - 10/20/09 01:33 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: HomeInMyShoes]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: HomeInMyShoes
[...]
7 - Träumerei

[...]


I'd love to participate in this study group because I've learned Träumerei and plan to learn Der Dichter Spricht for the upcoming Schumann e-cital in spring 2010. I need to get a better recording of Träumerei, and I will post it here. smile Naturally, my ultimate goal is the entire set.

In the meantime, HomeInMyShoes, my best advice is to be mindful of Schumann's dynamic indications. The beginning for instance was a bit too loud. A bit more rubato is in order throughout. Especially at the end, though, notice the ritardando Schumann indicates starting at m. 22. Definitely a good idea to bring this out. There are two other ritards as well, at m. 8 and m. 16, respectively.

Your performance was very good, and the best thing you can do is to play slowly through it and identify each spot where you stumble. Then, stop and play that spot through at least 5 times until you get it perfectly. It's also helpful to back up and play into a trouble spot.
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1290585 - 10/20/09 02:12 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Horowitzian]
HomeInMyShoes Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 495
@Manndrew. Yes, my tempo is maybe a bit fast on no. 1. I think the biggest issue I have there is the err in notes in the final bar going back into the repeat of the second part and a need for a better rit. in the beginning of the second part. Overall, I think I need a bit more deliberate rubato overall in places.

@Horowitzian. Yep, it's not a piece that I would say I have completely mastered. It's certainly going better than say no. 2, but there's a couple of spots I do need to practice more at slower tempos to sort it out. I noticed my lack of rit. at the end of the piece. I need to exaggerate the start of it (at least in my brain) because I tend to only us it in the final three beats.

Thanks for the comments, it is very helpful.

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#1290626 - 10/20/09 03:13 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: HomeInMyShoes]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
You are most welcome! It is my pleasure to help others to the best of my ability. smile I ought to be able to get a better recording of Träumerei this afternoon, because I want to do a sound test for another recording i need to do soon.
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1290779 - 10/20/09 06:40 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Horowitzian]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
As promised, here is a recording of Träumerei. I used my MacBook Pro's own mic, with Audacity. I added some Garritan ambience to liven up the recording made in my rather acoustically dead living room. The piano is my Steinway B, which has not been tuned since May. I apologize for that, as it makes the recording sound a touch muddier than it would were the piano freshly tuned. frown

I chose a fairly slow tempo in order to emphasize legato and phrasing as much as possible. There's one or two slight rough spots. blush
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1290783 - 10/20/09 06:44 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Horowitzian]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
ACK! I can't access your recording, even by typing it in.

CMOHR
_________________________
Think less - play more



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#1290787 - 10/20/09 06:50 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: CMohr]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453


Edited by Horowitzian (10/20/09 06:50 PM)
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1290799 - 10/20/09 07:04 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Horowitzian]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
Got it! Thanks.

I liked that you slowed it down, so we can hear the dynamics. Nice job.

I'm going to try to make a recording soon. It may have to be on my Mac also.

We'll see what I can do here in the next couple days.


CMOHR
_________________________
Think less - play more



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#1290811 - 10/20/09 07:22 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: CMohr]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
My pleasure! Thank you for the kind words. smile

I really need to invest in a better mic than what my Mac has built-in. It's not bad, but could be better. I'll probably end up getting a Zoom of some kind.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1290877 - 10/20/09 09:06 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Mati]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Yes, I found Blindman's Buff (#3) one of the most challenging pieces too because of the speed. If I remember correctly, #6 came next for me.
I love Kinderszenen!

CA
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Music is my best friend.


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#1290955 - 10/21/09 12:01 AM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: ChopinAddict]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Sorry guys, I just realized that I played the G-A-B♭-D figuration between m. 23 and 24 as F-G-A-C. It sounds all right, but it surely is wrong. I apologize for that, and will try to get another recording when I have some time. blush
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1293037 - 10/24/09 05:57 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Horowitzian]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
All right. The old link is dead now, so don't try it. I recorded again — this time playing the ending correctly. I also managed to get a more "open" sound via light noise reduction, slight compression, and some Garritan ambience. The piano still needs a tuning, so it still sounds a bit dodgy, mainly in the tenor. I apologize once again for that.

http://www.box.net/shared/z9721ecgoa

Once again, a few rough spots. But overall, this take went pretty well. smile

PS— CMohr, this one's even a bit slower overall than the last one. Came to around 3:07.


Edited by Horowitzian (10/24/09 06:01 PM)
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1293435 - 10/25/09 02:18 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Horowitzian]
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1817
Loc: Connecticut
When Horowitzian posted his recording, I assumed he posted it to share the joy of playing the piano, not because he wanted any criticism, constructive or otherwise.

Here at the ABF, giving criticism when it hasn't been asked for is considered rude.

I was a happy participant of the first study group here, the Croatian Rhapsody Group.

We posted 'in progress' recordings all the time, some of them extremely slow.

No one complained.

We were all part of the Group.


Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#1293459 - 10/25/09 02:53 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: dannylux]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
Bravo!

CMohr
_________________________
Think less - play more



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#1293465 - 10/25/09 03:14 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: dannylux]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19224
Loc: New York City
Deleted and sent a PM instead.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/25/09 03:28 PM)

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#1293472 - 10/25/09 03:33 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: pianoloverus]
tangleweeds Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012


Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 1269
Loc: Portlandia
I feel that pianoloverus' unsolicited criticisms make it feel unsafe to post one's recordings in the ABF, which is a most unfortunate development. I think that those of us who find that unacceptable should speak up here to take a stand against that kind of behavior in this particular subforum.
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#1293506 - 10/25/09 04:32 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: tangleweeds]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
I agree TW! I have made a recording of my current progress with Traumerei, but after reading the posts from Pianoloverus I thought, "do I really need to set myself up for unsolicited critisism"?. I'm relatively new here and I thought this thread in particular (along with other study group threads) was maybe a place where we could post our PROGRESS on certain pieces not a finished e-cital piece.
When I have my piano lessons every week, my teacher always reminds me at the beginning that it isn't a recital-that we're working together to bring a piece to my satisfaction-AND that a piece can always be better.

I know that posters can say what they like here, so I am a little forewarned - BUT I'm here to learn with others who(I thought) were in a relatively similar position as I am.(Returning to piano and discovering pieces for the first time). I hadn't played the Shumann seriously until a couple months ago. I had listened to the Kinderszenen, liked the pieces so wanted to learn them.

What interested me in this thread was that I have been learning some of these pieces. I don't have others around me who share the same interest in classical piano, so this seemed ideal to me. I guess that's why I joined PW in the first place.

Sorry for the rant, but like you said - I think other ABFers need to voice their opinions HERE.

CMOHR
_________________________
Think less - play more



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#1293541 - 10/25/09 05:30 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: pianoloverus]
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Sorry for interrupting. I've been reading this thread for a while in silence, but just can't go on like that. Can you go barking on each other somewhere else? It went far off from constructive criticism and is totally jeopardizing the original purpose of this thread.

M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#1293554 - 10/25/09 05:52 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Mati]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2553
Loc: Not in Texas
Rather than destroy what might otherwise be a fairly decent thread, I'm deleting all of the posts containing petty back and forth bickering. For those who enjoy such things, you're welcome to PM amongst yourselves ad infinitum.
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Greg

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#1293559 - 10/25/09 06:00 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: Mati]
salzdt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 260
Loc: Greenport, New York
Guys,
I agree with Mati. I looked into this study group to start looking at which of these works I could start considering to begin working on. After reading some of these posts, I'm not sure I would ever post any of my playing here. The ABF is a very friendly place, and all of the posts in the comments section of the Recitals are frank, but non mean spirited. Maybe those who will be participating in this goroup could be off to a new start 3hearts Look forward to your progress.
Dot
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#1293779 - 10/26/09 04:31 AM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: dannylux]
crusadar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 670
Loc: Middle England
-
I totally agree, I guess when HomeInMyShoes posted his original post he wasn't seeking criticism either, there's still one unsolicited critical post that's not been deleted though.
-

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#1294115 - 10/26/09 01:47 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: crusadar]
HomeInMyShoes Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 495
I feel somewhat guilty for starting this mess.

Criticism is good as long as it is constructive and doesn't go petty which it seemed to have done a bit previously, but I personally didn't take anything anyone said as bad criticism towards me. We are all at different points on our journeys and there will be varying levels of doneness in anything we record. As with all creative and design endeavors, I don't think a piece is ever really done. It will always change and reformulate itself for me. Listening to all recordings is an absolute treasure trove of ideas for me when it comes to interpretation.

So I am hopeful that this thread can survive and we'll hear everyone's attempts at these pieces and discussion on suggested tempos, interpretations, and all other things related to opus 15.

Maybe I'll get a recording of 4 and 8 up for you guys. I'm supposed to have those ready for the Schumann recital at some point.

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#1294289 - 10/26/09 06:14 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: HomeInMyShoes]
HomeInMyShoes Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 495
Okay, I'm almost happy with no. 4. I have to make one caveat in that I haven't been able to get the soft pedal to actually work on my Roland so there's unfortunately no una corda work and I have to make the first p too loud. But it's reasonable, although I was having some slips today, so I need to go work slower again. No. 8 is a total mess and no where near what I would call complete. I'm still fumbling around with the fingers a bit and, although it has gotten a lot better, it is still too slow and sloppy, even though I did attempt to up the tempo a bit to record. Listening, it really does need some crispening up. It's a little too drawly to me. I do appreciate any comments on anything especially dynamics and pedaling.

Schumann opus 15 no. 4
Schumann opus 15 no. 8

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#1294397 - 10/26/09 09:14 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: HomeInMyShoes]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
I thoroughly enjoyed no. 4. Lovely playing. Only thing I can think of is possibly a bit more legato and I'm wanting to hear a bit more of a "lift" at the end of phrases. Otherwise, great! A digital makes it easy to get a great recording, unlike my rotten setup. smile

No. 8, as you say, is a work in progress. I hear a great interpretation coming out, though so I think you are on the right track. smile The best thing to do is to play through it and note down every spot you have a stumble. Then, play each spot 5 times over till the actual trouble area is perfect. Then, back up and play into it about 5 times. This works wonders for problem areas for me. smile

Great work, and thanks for sharing with us!
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1294492 - 10/26/09 11:43 PM Re: Schumann Opus 15 Kinderszenen - study group [Re: HomeInMyShoes]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
Wow! Nice playing - I think you've really captured the feeling of both pieces. Wrong notes here and there are all part of the polishing process, I think.
I've got alot of work to do to get mine up to speed.

I think my recordings are going to have to wait until after the Nov. recital. (it will be my first so I'm a little nervous) eek
I also don't seem to be able to convert my recordings that I did on my mac to MP3. Boy, I need alot of help.

Keep 'em comin'! smile

CMOHR
_________________________
Think less - play more



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