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Those with digital pianos , do you use a particular surge protector? Any recommendations?

To set the context for my response, think of how much your digital piano cost and then consider the protection provided by the various types of power line conditioners and surge protectors. Is your digital piano worth enough to you to spend, say, $300 on power line protection, or are you comfortable with a $30 surge protector?

One thing to understand is that many people seem to think that surge protection is all you need - that momentary spike on the power line. Also, many people believe that an inexpensive UPS will provide all the protection you need. With UPS's, you get what you pay for. The inexpensive UPS will provide simple surge protection by virtue of the fact that they have that circuitry in addition to the UPS switching circuit. But in the less expensive UPS's, your equipment is ALWAYS connected directly to the power line until a power outage forces a switch to the battery. In the "good" UPS's, the equipment is ALWAYS running on the battery, with the power line trickle charging it, so you have that isolation that helps protect your equipment. From what I have seen, the cutoff between the two types of UPS seems to be around $600 - $800.

A less expensive approach is to get a power line conditioner. These will protect your equipment from surges AND brownouts. In other words, these power line conditioners will insure that the voltage your equipment sees will remain at 117 - 120v, as long as the power line is providing power between approx 97 and 140v. However, a power line conditioner is not a UPS, and it will automatically shutdown to protect your equipment if the incoming voltage from the power line falls below the low threshold (usually around 97v) or exceeds the high threshold (usually around 140v). A GOOD UPS will provide this protection by virtue of the fact that you are running from the battery all the time, rather than from the power line.

You can google for these devices for yourself. I use a Furman AR-1215 power line conditioner, rather than a UPS. A UPS iis useful in a situation where you would lose important data if you were unable to gracefully shutdown your system. Typically, a computer would be the likely candidate for the UPS. A digital piano, unless it had a sequencer that you are very concerned about losing data from, would do fine with a decent power conditioner.

I hope that helps...

Tony

Tony -

In your opinion, what makes running directly off of a battery superior in a "good" UPS system? My "cheap" APC uninterruptable power supply had tolerances of tenths of a volt below which the battery would kick in. I was under the impression that this would be perfectly adequate.

I've used a Tripp-Lite Isobar for years.

AndyH:

If your UPS will switch to battery to keep the voltage at 117 - 120v, then I don't see an issue at all. The lesser expensive UPS's that I have dealt with will typically switch to battery in the absence of AC power, which is in reality when the voltage drops to what I would consider brownout levels (i.e. below the range I just mentioned). That is the type of UPS I was talking about. Maybe the newer models do switch before reaching brownout levels. If so, then those are not considered in my comments. I do believe that the information I provided, describing what I think should happen to be protective of a digital piano is valid, and your UPS as you describe it, would fit into the description.

A decent power conditioner doesn't need to "switch" into anything (other than that the toroid is typically tapped), so if there MIGHT be any issue, it would be switching back and forth between battery and AC if the voltage were to be bouncing above and below your threshold. But it seems that me that if that were an issue, it would be an issue any time it switched to the battery, so I can't see that this would be a problem at all. I don't know offhand if there are any documented issues in those sorts of "end cases".

Regarding the Tripp-Lite Isobar, I have a couple of those and think they are the best built of that type of product that I have seen. They deal with surge protection, but not brownouts. Usually, you will see brownouts most commonly in the heat of summer when many people are switching on air conditioners. Some people will never see a problem with their equipment being exposed to brown outs, and other people will see their equipment periodically reset or otherwise act "funny". Each situation seems different, so I go back to my opening statement in my previous post regarding what level of protection you are comfortable with.

if people want in-depth information on this subject, you can google and find lots of it. When looking around the net, I find it best to seek a number of sources and cross-check the information. There can be a lot of unnecessary paranoia about this subject, though I don't think investing in a decent power line conditioner is out of line with having a sizable investment in a decent digital piano or home studio.

Tony

For home use, surge protection is generally not needed. Manufacturers play on the fear factor to sell these units to people who really don't need them.

If you have real reason to suspect power problems in your home (relatively rare, except in rural areas), then get your home fixed by a professional. Seriously.

For outside-the-home use, the picture is different. Stage performances, especially outdoors, present different power problems. But for these situations, the surge protectors sold at retail stores are not really adequate. They may protect you from the first spike or two, but they become "dead" thereafter, leaving you unprotected (but giving you no indication that they are no longer functional).

People often think that power surges are responsible for all or most failures of electronic equipment. This is just not so.

To the OP:

You will get lots of opinions on here. All I can suggest is that you do what you deem best for your particular situation.

Tony

Thanks for the info, we have what I consider a sizable investment in the piano and while I'm not paranoid about power surges I think its prudent to provide some level of protection to the electronics. We get power outages periodically in the winter. I don't know enough about electronics to know if these outages put the piano at risk or not. I was curious about what others use. I will check into the options.

Are you sure you have power surges?
How would you measure them?

Power outages are voltage reduction. Surges are massive voltage increases. What does a protector do when an outage occurs? Nothing.

So many recommendations. How many provided the ‘whys’ for their recommendation - provided numbers to support their conclusions? An overwhelming majority will recommend protectors that do not even claim to provide effective protection. Will simply recommend only what others told them to believe. Don't take my word for it. Ask each recommender to post numeric specs where the manufacturer actually claims protection from each type of surge. Nobody will.

Effective protection has been well proven for over 100 years. Lightning striking AC wires down the street it a direct strike to household electronics. Proper protection means even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. Effective protection means nobody even knew the surge existed. How does your telco – their computers connected directly to overhead wires all over town – how does you telco have no computer damage?

They disconnect everyone’s phone service with each approaching storm? Of course not. Telcos suffer maybe 100 surges with each storm. How often has your town been without phone service for four days while they replace that computer?

The concept was even demonstrated by Franklin in 1752. Either that energy enters your house seeking earth destructively via household electronics. Or you earth that energy before it can enter the building. What will those protectors do that others have recommended. No earth ground. So they must block and absorb surges. Again – numbers. How do its few hundred joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It does not.

Most protectors recommended are the same protector circuit selling in grocery stores for $7. Same circuit selling for $25 or $150 is better? Of course not. But again, they have so many recommending it without even looking at the numbers. No earth ground. No manufacturer specs that claim protection. Why did so many recommend only on hearsay - provide no numbers?

What is installed in every home so that even a direct lightning strike causes no damage? First, no protector provides protection. Protection is earth ground. Your building earthing must be upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code. Where is surge energy harmlessly absorbed? In earth.

Second, every wire in every cable must connect (ie ‘less than 10 feet’) to that earthing before entering the building. Some utilities (AC electric, telephone) will not operate if earthed directly. So we install one ‘whole house’ protector to make that earthing connection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A protector without that dedicated earthing wire does not even claim protection in its manufacturer specs. Anywhere that damage cannot occur – ie your telco – a ‘whole house’ protector is required.

Only the more responsible companies sell ‘whole house’ protectors. General Electric, Leviton, Siemens, Kieson, Intermatic, and Square D are but a few. Not listed are APC, Tripplite, Belkin, and Monster Cable. How expensive is the superior solution? The effective Cutler-Hammer sells in Lowes for less than $50. How much for the Monster Cable protector that does not and cannot not provide protection? $150.

Do you install a protector for about $150 per appliance? Or the well proven ‘whole house’ protector for about $1 per protected appliance. One is only selling a scam for maximum profits (no wonder earth ground is never mentioned). Effective protectors cost tens or 100 times less money.

But again, what earths even direct lightning strikes and remains functional? The effective and properly earthed ‘whole house’ protector.

Either you earth energy so that it does not seek earth destructively via your piano – and everything else (what protects your furnace?) Surge damage is directly traceable to humans who failed to learn 100 years of well proven knowledge.

What do munitions dumps install to have no surge damage (also called explosions)? Not those above recommended plug-in devices. Much was what we do for household surge protection was pioneered in mentions dumps almost 100 years ago.

But again, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Those who make responsible recommendations also provide why: ie surges seek earth ground, 100 years of well proven experience, where are the numbers on that plug-in protectors?

What do telcos do to not have computer damage? Protector connects as short as possible to earth. To make that ‘whole house’ protector even better, up to 50 meters separation between protector and electronics. Did others also forget to mention that ‘why’? But again, from over 100 years of knowledge and experience: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. The effective solution also costs tens or 100 times less money. Also listed was where to get them - and prices.

I wouldn't have had the energy to write what you wrote. But thanks, that sums up the story well.

Short form ...

1. Protect the building and you're done. The electrical code provides for that. If you own home, you're already protected against lightning.

2. Surge protector power strips are nearly worthless. The million dollar warranties that they offer are meaningless. They're just a powerful marketing tool to convince an unknowing public to upgrade from a $3 power strip to a $50 "surge-protecting" wonder. The buyer is content to know that he's "protected" by the surge supressor, not realizing that he was already protected without it.

3. Power surges not related to lightning do occur. But appliances can handle short spikes without blinking.

4. As you said, power sags (or brownouts) are not surges. Sustained periods of under-voltage can be harmful to devices with large motors when they must try to drive a heavy load with inadequate power. But sustained sags are rare, and surge supressors don't even "see" such conditions. Anyway, digital pianos and other electronic devices have no motors. And the small motors in CD, DVD, VCR and similar devices are not affected.

5. UPCs can provide power when the power mains are down, or when their power has sagged. But this is not a condition you need to protect against. (Ok, if you're at the 2-minute warning during the Super Bowl and your power goes out, a UPC can keep your TV alive so that you can watch those last 2 minutes. But figure the odds.)

This is America, not India. We have reliable power. Fear not.

Its not the power going out I was concerned with but rather the accompanying power which comes back on and off in quick succession that we experience when the power goes off from time to time that I was worried about. What is the minimum amount voltage spike that can damage circuitry? If you have numbers that suggest that no significant power spikes occur in the above scenario? Cool. Are these numbers published somewhere ?

I am not in favor or against the use of surge protectors. I simply don't know if 1) minor surges in power occur and if they are indeed enough to damage circuity.

My wife works from home on the computer all day, which is very fortunate that her company allows that since she has difficulty getting around. She has mentioned on several occasions the power "blips" that occur a few times a day. I put a UPS on her system and that has solved the problem of her computer resetting on those occasions. I think that whatever the cause, it must be something that is running during the typical work day, since I don't often see those on the weekend when I am home (though I do see that on occasion).

I described brownouts and power outages that occur in our neighborhood frequently during the summer (mostly the brownouts, and on more rare occasions the outages).

I am not willing to argue the merits of surge suppressors because there are valid points made all around - for and against. I agree with the poster who said that the cheap surge suppressor can only protect once or twice and then they are dead with no warning. But if surge suppressors are not needed, then it won't really matter and the buyer simply wasted his or her money. It is up to each individual to decide how s/he wants to spend the money (or not). But I can say that I am uncomfortable with the power fluctuations we experience and consider a power line conditioner to be worthwhile.

If you go over to the Tascam forums, you will find that people had strange problems with the two earlier generations of the 2488 HD recorder, and found that putting a power line conditioner ahead of it seemed to resolve those issues. My suspicion is that, in order to keep costs down, they cut corners in the quality of the power supply filtering and overall robustness against power line anomalies. I am not talking about surge suppression and that sort of thing, but instead power fluctuations that can affect a cheap supply. Enough people have reported those issues and the fact that a power conditioner seemed to resolve them that I would say there is a correlation.

One guy I work with lives a bit out in the country and has experienced damage to equipment on several occasions due to lightening strikes very near his house to power poles and such. He put a power conditioner on some of his expensive equipment and has not had problems with such damage since. These were not direct strikes, but local, so they would have affected his power line.

Take that for what it is worth, but it is real world experience. People will say such claims are bogus and fear mongering, and that is fine. As I said in a previous post you ultimately have to decide for yourself who is telling the truth. I would rather have a decent power line conditioner on my equipment than not. I use the Furman AR-1215. I got it at a good price for around $300, but they typically run closer to $500 or so. Each person can choose for him or herself. Weigh all the claims and rhetoric and make your own decision.

Tony

To answer your question about minimum amount of voltage spike that can damage circuitry, that depends on the quality of components used, the quality of filtering in the power supply, the overall design itself - in other words, there are a lot of variables. There is testing done on products called MTBF (mean time between failures) in which the product and its components are supposed to be stressed to come with an "educated guess" on that number. There are some testbed standards for temperature ranges for environmental testing ovens and voltage ranges for stressing components. but these are also dependent on manufacturer specs for that component. It would be difficult to come up with real, hard numbers because of the variables involved. There are manufacturing test engineers whose entire careers are the study of this area.

I have been involved in engineering (low level embedded software) and working directly along side hardware engineers and in the manufacturing and test environments to know that there are no simple answers and that component stressing does shorten component life in general. Maybe many people would consider it paranoid that I prefer to use a decent power conditioner (not power surge protection per se) on my expensive equipment. I don't have a UPS on the equipment because it is not a situation like my wife's computer where I will have data loss if the conditioner shuts down to protect my equipment. but when I see power glitches that can easily be seen in the lights, TV, etc, I am nervous about my Motif XS keyboard and associated equipment.

I don't intend to get into an argument about this, but am simply presenting my observations and what I have seen on the job in terms of how MTBF is arrived at and what the considerations are. There are many people who never give this stuff a second thought and never have any problems at all. There are others whose equipment has failed prematurely and have had it diagnosed (my co-worker) and had it determined that a surge from one or more lightening strikes caused the premature failure. I had a very nice Roland FP8 digital piano die prematurely. I diagnosed it to what failed, but by that time, the part was no longer available and I had to replace the keyboard. Lesson learned the hard way.

Tony

You do not define any surge. Your electricity turns on and off 120 times every second. What you see is simply a longer period of turn off. That is not destructive.

When power cycles, sine waves are slowly increasing or decreasing. IOW your AC power varies just like sound from the radio. When someone starts talking, is that a destructive surge on the speaker? Of course not. As he starts speaking, his voice increases in volume - does not 'spike'.

Destructive surges are not voltage spikes. That voltage is only a symptom. Damage occurs when a current seeks earth ground. If anything tries to stop that current, then voltage increases as necessary so that current will flow. That current times increased voltage means increased and destructive energy. If you connect that current to a better electrode, then better conductivity means near zero voltage. Near zero voltage times a thousand amps is near zero energy – no damage. Effective protection means destructive energy dissipates harmlessly in earth – not inside appliances. But only if you have provided (inspected) that short connection to earth.

A rare surge (maybe once every seven years) is why we earth a ‘whole house’ protector. Same protector also makes other (lesser - maybe destructive) anomalies from other sources irrelevant.

Some numbers. A 1970 international standard meant 120 volt electronics must withstand up to 600 volts without damage. Today, electronics (especially computers that meet Intel ATX standards) must withstand even 1000 volts without damage. A number mostly defined by what is inside its power supply.

Protection means earthing a rare and destructive transient. Earth one ‘whole house’ protector so that internal appliance protection is not overwhelmed. Earth every incoming wire (in every cable) to single point ground. Details posted previously.

Furman is mostly smoke and mirrors. If it provides that great protection, then someone can post those numeric spec numbers that cite protection from each type of surge. No one can. Furman does not make that claim. Furman gets recommended when observation rather than engineering design knowledge and experience is how one knows. Where is the spec numbers? Where does that Furman make the always so important short and dedicated connection to earth? Bottom line reposted: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Maybe the NIST (US government research agency) can say it better:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
> work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection
> in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

NIST just defined the Furman power conditioner. Reasons why were posted above.

Some minor details to a post that points properly in the right direction. Effective surge protection means both meeting and exceeding post 1990 National Electrical code. No changes inside the house. Even 1950 two wire receptacles are sufficient. But service entrance earthing (at the breaker box) often must be upgraded – to also exceed code.

Code connects one AC wire directly to earth. Effective protection means all three incoming wires must be earthed. Those other two must connect 'less than 10 feet' via a 'whole house' protector. Less than 10 feet is not required by code. But is one factor essential to a lower impedance connection to earth. Every foot shorter means more energy gets dissipated harmlessly in earth – not inside the building.

Other factors that exceed code include no sharp wire bends in that ground wire. Ground wires separated from other non-grounding wires. Etc. In every case because protection is only as effective as the earth ground.

Essential is for all incoming utilities to make a short connection to a single point earthing electrode. Some buildings that meet code also violate these other requirements. One utility demonstrates how to fix that defective earthing. How to upgrade earthing to exceed code requirements:
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

Above discusses secondary protection. Homeowners should also inspect the primary surge protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Surge protection isn't an issue I am concerned about. I mentioned my co-worker with his lightening strikes and what he did about it, but my issue is with power glitches. I stated in my first post that i use a Furman AR-1215, and that it will maintain a constant output voltage of 117v when the input voltage ranges between 87 and 147 volts. It will simply shut down when the incoming voltage falls outside that range.

Tony

After thinking about how this thread is going, I have decided to stop here with my involvement. I have cited the situation that I have and what I did to address it. I can dig up "numbers" as well as anyone else can. We all have access via google. But those numbers don't change the experiences that i and people I know and/or have come to know on the net have had. The OP can decide for himself what he wants to do. This subject is ALWAYS controversial, and I have seen people trot out their pedigree in support of their stance,cite numbers and argue convincingly on both sides. I am not going to fight this one. The argument seems to be largely focused on the fallacy of surge protection. I am not concerned about or arguing that either way. My particular situation does not have anything to do with that, and I have (hopefully) stated that more than once. If my leaving this discussion now means that I am lying, dumb, or simply misled by the greed of manufacturers, then so be it. I am not interested in continuing involvement in this sort of thing.

Regards,

Tony

Thanks to all for the info, appreciated

Posts seen too often:

Should be obvious which one was a design engineer with generations of experience. Which one provided numbers, citations, and other facts that you can confirm? Quantitative reasoning - not subjective claims. Which one is also confronting popular urban myth?

Subjective claims are how junk science is promoted. 'I feel; therefore I know.' Soundbyte logic. Subjective claims that even convert normal operation into 'stress'. Another example of why so many believe popular myths. Not hear the minority who actually know this stuff.