Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
Ah! Good question! What do you think? I'll reveal the answer after we get some responses
No one seems to be registering their guesses on this so I'll start with mine... All acoustic piano! NO Pianoteq.
I base this on the fact that you said you were using a Rode condenser mic on your piano and that you were using Pianoteq just to illustrate your damper pedal action. Since you've changed to a different app for pedal animation, you don't even have Pianoteq running anymore (it doesn't appear on the task bar on your PC). I hope I'm correct!
Oh, and I'm also following along with the lesson here. Which says something about the teacher. I, in all my life, have never taken the time to learn music from another composer - I always just work on my own compositions. But listening to Hugh and watching his teaching technique has me hooked... and possibly a bit spoiled. Now no other teacher will do for me!!!
At last! We get to the "really hard stuff" with this next batch of lessons. This is the start of the passage where the notes sounds like they're "swimming in an ocean of sound". Following our modus operandi, we take things apart, starting with the left hand alone, but with a slight twist where instead of following the note pattern as written, I show you how to extract an easier way to play by staying with familiar octave shapes to start.
I have a general piano writing/music theory question.
Page one has a certain style to the writing. Page two has it's own style, and so does page three to the end, but I don't really know how to describe them properly.
Page one seems fairly straightforward as a melody with harmonic accompaniment (although it's pretty thick as well), but for page two, is there a term to describe this kind of texture with lots of notes/chords? It seems more about harmonies than about the melody to me. Along these lines, I've been listening to a lot of Beethoven bagatelles lately and I've noticed that he often has some kind of figure/gesture/gimmick forming a more melodic section of the piece, then another section, where it's mostly chords and changing harmonies, then back to the melodic part. I'm thinking of examples in things like Für Elise or Bagatelle in D (Op. 119, No. 3). Is this a type of piano writing than can be identified or am I completely out of the ballpark on this one?
And for page 3 to the end, would we describe this as melody with arpeggiated harmonic accompaniment?
I'm big into terms, structure, and theory as well as learning to play so any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks for all these videos and for any feedback you may have on this question.
cscl Estonia 190 Satin Ebony ABF Recitals: x9 — Studio Recitals: x17 *
Thanks for the lesson Hugh--I've been excited for this section for ages! If you, personally, were playing the piece, would you use the simplified fingering or the original form?
Oh and just thought I'd get a general opinion on this: I believe at this point everyone has mapping out notes handled...we could save a solid 45 seconds or a minute by just saying "these are D, A, B". Anyone still need this?
And how about the single run through Clair with an overhead camera angle (so its easy to view fingerings/techniques)? Is that a good idea, or am I the only one who would use it? Man I feel like the annoying kid who just sits in the back asking questions all class.....
Based on my personal experience (about 2 1/2 years returned)I have to agree with both of your posts above regarding the notes and overhead fingering - but only for me.
The reason I didn't say anything is that this is supposed to be for real beginners and not just people with a few years under their belt. Real beginners attending this class will need everything they can get from Hugh to use to their advantage.
Let me give you an example, fingering. I try Hugh's fingering several times to get a "feel" for the reason he's using the fingering he's providing. My personal span, although I have short fingers, is 12 notes - 13 in several cases. Do I need to use his fingerings? Somethimes yes because they can set me up for the next notes other times no because of my hand span. Would I benefit from his fingering looking overhead, yes, if only to watch his "flow".
I think what Hugh is attempting to do is provide the most basic instruction so that eveyone, including beginners, can learn by attending these lessons. I am sure there are a lot of people out there that are following these lessons who haven't posted on this thread for what ever the reason - just look at the hits this thread has had. People with more experience, like coffeelover, for example, use only what they need to make thier playing better. I do roughly the same but need considerably more help than she does based on listening to her play.
Finally, and the last of my two cents on this, the pace which Hugh is presenting the lessons gives this 62 year old the time to practice and learn what Hugh is teaching. No, I'm not as fast as I used to be at learning - just better!
I think there are more people watching these video lessons out there other than people in this thread if you look at YouTube video comments. And who knows how much piano playing experience those folks have. If I were Hugh, I wouldn't change the way of teaching at this point for those beginners who have been following these lessons faithfully, considering it gets harder and harder from now on.
But I do have an idea regarding what we, including Hugh, might want to consider in the future.
These lesson videos have been very successful in terms of catching a lot of attention. But has it been satisfactory for non-beginners like Woody and myself for example? I have been enjoying these lessons but mostly skipping the detailed mapping directions that have been given for every measure. I am very thirsty for MORE but I have to wait for certain measures I need more work. Sometimes there is no time left for Hugh in one video other than just mapping like the last one! Hugh has made 36 videos but we have covered only less than a third of this piece. That means Hugh has to make, roughly, 75 to 80 more videos to finish this piece. Wow, that's a lot of work considering Hugh is doing this for free!
There should be a way to make this work and make everyone happy including Hugh.
So, Hugh, (-and other piano teachers if you are reading this-) what if you take a different piece of music next time and the video lessons are made for a group of people that are roughly in a certain level? And what if they are willing to pay for the access to the whole set of lessons? While Hugh or any piano teacher might be losing their puplis' business over "internet" techonology, I suggest this could be the way you might want to consider. Think about teaching people from all over the world on-line and make it work as business. I think you can do it with something like YouTube by making the lessons only for limited people who's given access. One more thing, with intermediate level pupils, you probably wouldn't need as many number of videos as you do for the beginners. If you decide to make a lesson for beginners only, that might work for those folks, too. But certainly I can't speak for them here. However, I do think that as your pupils become regular, there might be even other different options you can discuss with them, something like a small group or even individual lessons. I see this as a long term business idea for both teachers and pupils!
I do want to see how Hugh's trial version of Webinar works out, but for me I would prefer the way this thread has worked for me. I have been very comfortable with these video lessons and this thread discussions. It is actually pretty convenient form of learning piano music on-line in terms of timing of watching lesson videos and practicing on my own pace and asking questions.
I agree, the fundamental problem seems to be the variety of skill levels watching these videos. I'm afraid that there may be no simple solution to the problem, as keeping the lessons as-is makes them too slow for intermediate/advanced pianists, while making them faster runs the potential risk of confusing beginner players. What if Hugh requests in his next video that the viewers post in comments or on this thread, advising him as to what is being covered too slowly as well as what is being glossed over but, in fact, is actually quite important. Considering the large number of people, someone might have ideas on how to restructure the lessons to be more time efficient. For example, I just thought of this:
What if we saved time by taking care of all the writing ahead of time? Hugh could start his lesson 36, for example, with the display shown at 7:15 instead of the blank screen at the beginning. This way, people could already have seen and be getting an idea of what notes are being played and what fingering will be used from the beginning. In addition, people reviewing the lessons can see his completed workspace at the beginning of the lesson instead of hunting through it.
Woody, I think you might have misunderstood me when I said "single run through Clair...". I was refferencing a suggestion I proposed earlier, that Hugh (or anyone who has mastered the piece) should record themselves playing the entire song from start to finish, using all the fingering technique and musical style they would personally use if performing. Ideally, they would use a camera angle similar to Hugh's overhead view for this. That way, people could review the entire song as it should be played, as well as see fingerings, etc. This would not be a lesson in the Clair de Lune from Scratch series necessarily, but rather a supplementary aid.
I really like CoffeeLover's small group/individual lesson idea. That could be very profitable to not only the teacher and student, but the community as a whole!
munkeegutz, Gotcha, I misunderstood - sorry I had thought you wanted it in addition to what Hugh was doing "Clair de Lune from Scratch" not supplemental to it. I agree, the biggest problem is the varied experience of the students and also how much time we each have for practicing.
I, too, liked coffeeLover's idea of small group/individual lesson idea. The teacher could always receive payment via PayPal or similar and allow access to the Webinar or somehow the YouTube Lessons. What does one pay a "world class" teacher like Hugh? Is it fair to discuss actual amounts here on an open forum? When you think of the time and effort he is putting into "Clair de Lune from Scratch" for free, it truly amazes me!!! You know he has to love teaching as much as playing piano!
I would think however to really utilize the full value of internet lessons (and feedback from the treacher) we would have to be able to record videos with decent sound. CoffeeLover appears to all set in that department but I am just now starting to make progress recording with my ZOOM H2 and using Audacity. I'm probably months away from recording video on top of that.
Wow, that's a lot of work considering Hugh is doing this for free!
There should be a way to make this work and make everyone happy including Hugh.
First off, a donation link wouldn't go amiss. People may or may not use it, but at least there'd be the option...
I'd hope Hugh will keep doing the remainder of this piece for free if possible though, with so many people now hooked any other option probably wouldn't go down well.
However, once the basic piece is done. Why not then do more advanced sessions that cover specific sections of a piece and go into as much detail as you care to. For these videos you could actually charge a small amount. When you consider how many people may be viewing this thread and the youtube videos, if you get a good number of those to stump up a few quid for a set of advanced videos that may be a nice bit of payback
There's also then the option in the future of doing say 1/3 of a piece free and the remainder as paid lessons (just make sure you state it up front to avoid any issues). The first 1/3 would be more than sufficient for people to get a feel for how the lessons advance and decide if it's for them. Again, keeping prices cheap, dirt cheap if possible, may help get a lot of people to buy it along with the "advanced" videos and future pieces. I won't try suggesting actual prices as only Hugh knowns what value he places on his time and the amount of work involved in producing the videos, but my suggestion would be to keep the cost for the full piece low and hope for higher volume in sales.
Plus there's the "long tail" aspect of selling the the tutorial sets, once they're done sales should continue to trickle in as newcomers move onto newer pieces.
The key though would be the piece selection. Clair de lune is an incredibly popular piece amongst both those who listen to classical music but also those interested in the piano that heard the piece in a recent movie.
At the very least though, provide a donation option somewhere and keep posting. Even though I've yet to start this piece, your videos are great to watch.
Gary, your donation link idea is GREAT! Hugh should get on that right away. Discussing prices is indeed very hard, especially since people are in very different financial situations. I don't think its fair for me to voice my personal opinion in that matter...
One of the problems with this piece (as Hugh explained earlier) is that the fingerings you use will often depend on the size and shape of your hands. It's very individual. Hugh has smallish hands like me and I would agree with a lot of the fingerings he suggests in the lessons. The ideal would be to tailor the fingerings to the pianist in a one to one lesson but that is impossible in this situation. Even if Hugh was to post a video of himself performing CDL from overhead it still wouldn't mean those fingerings were right for you. For the more advanced players I would suggest you buy a really good edition and check out the fingerings marked in it. The Henle urtext is nice but Hugh might know of a better one. What I like about the Helne is that the fingerings are geared towards producing a good legato and cantabile tone. What this does mean is that there are a lot of finger substitutions involved as well as bigger stretches which are more suited to the developed pianist. Hugh has pointed out that these would not be appropriate for these videos.
I'm interested to see how the whole cost and charging thing goes. Someone mentioned that there are likely to be around 75 lessons in total on this one piece. Each lesson must take well over an hour to produce (complete guess??) and Hugh should be worth up to $100 per hour for his expertise. Add to that the cost of the equipment he uses and I estimate you guys owe him around $10000 so far.
Just another quickie (it's relatively safe for me at this time of day as most of you are sleeping)....
If you go back to the lesson overview you can see quite a lot of what Hugh does when he plays through the piece. I wonder if that overhead camera was running all the way through it? If so, Hugh might already have the footage??
Anyway, you can see what is happening with those finger substitutions right at the beginning. This is all about preparing and balancing the hand for good, even tone control and production. When we get to the measures described in lesson 36 Hugh uses the same fingerings he showed you where the LH spans an octave before RH takes over. It's more common to take the first four notes with LH as the score shows but you can see and hear that it works just fine. If you have larger hands (and you get the Henle) it's possible to connect all the notes of the melodic line by playing legato with the top fingers of the RH. Don't try this at home kids without adult supervision as you might end up snapping some tendons.
Uh oh....
I think I see CMohr coming with some rotten eggs!
Last edited by Chris H.; 09/22/0904:23 AM. Reason: belated attempt at humour
Having learned the left hand part, we now start looking at using the right hand to "scoop up" a portion of the left hand notes. I hope the "clef jumping" isn't too confusing; it's really easier to play than it may appear on "paper"! We're going to save the last set of right hand notes for the next lesson, as it's a bit trickier than the patterns we're working on here.
Personally, I think your observations are spot on. It's nice to read another teacher's views on this forum. (And that is not my attempt at sarcasm or humor - honest)!
I also had figured Hugh's hours put into this project should have earned him a tidy fortune. I think that's one reason why we all feel indebted to him for all the time he has so graciously given us.
Hi all, just joined the forum specifically for this thread. I guess I am ideal experimental material for these lessons . I bought a piano about one month ago with the specific aim of learning to play this piece. I am in my forties and although I remember 'FACE' etc from school, I have no music sight reading capabilities and have had only two lessons from a lovely lady who began the first lesson by bouncing a toy frog up and down the keys to the rythm of Three Blind Mice! Although she made me smile, I decided she was not for me. So last week I typed in my search box 'How long will it take a beginner to learn to play CDL' and to my delight I found this site. I have read all the comments posted and I see that for some, Hugh's note finding makes things a bit slow for them, but at the risk of sounding selfish, I do hope the same pace of learning is kept as it is proving ideal for me. If determination and the love of this music will enable me to play Claire De Lune, then surely I cannot fail ?? If someone offered me a million pounds or the ability to play this song reasonably well, I would not hesitate in declining the money (as long as my husband never found out LOL). Thank you so much Hugh for giving me an opportunity to fulfill an ambition of twenty years standing, much gratitude and warmest wishes to you. Now on with practicing those rolls arrrggggg.:))
Welcome tracy1 - you've come to the right place. The Piano World Forums is benefical for anything piano - try out some of the other forums too! Enjoy. Woody
Thanks Woody, I will. Am a bit ( a lot really) obsessive with anything I can read about learning to play at the moment so this is great. Was exhausted getting up for work this morning as I stayed up late trying to master measure 15 without the breaks! Good job the neighbours are away !
tracy1, Trust me, the obsessions are just starting. Sounds like you play an acoustic or a digital through speakers. Let's hope the neighbors are away for a while or they love piano music. I'm hands together through the end of the page (finally) but not yet up to speed from measure 15 on so I understand where you're coming from. I only put about a 1/2 hour a day to CDL due to all my other Chopin and Pop music practice. again, welcome aboard. Woody
Welcome Tracy1! As I have said earlier, when I first started back at the piano my husband said, "you have to learn Clair de Lune"! So I too feel very lucky in that Hugh is doing this. Even tho I am a good sight reader and know all the notes, etc., I hope Hugh doesn't omit the note reading parts of his lessons either. I think it's very beneficial for those who need it and it doesn't bother me a bit that time is being used for the note reading. So good luck and I hope you enjoy all this as much as the rest of us!