Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Just completed the Wapin Bridge retrofit on my Mason CC2

As seems to be the case with most of us here on the forum, I am always exploring the potential for improving the sound, response and enjoyment of my pianos. A while back, I looked into the possibility of converting the bridge on my Mason CC2 to the revolutionary Wapin system. I contacted Roy Peters, posting as RoyP on this forum. He is a Master Piano Tech who owns Peter's Piano Rebuilders and Service in Cincinnati, Ohio. He is also certified in Wapin and Stanwood installations. After a few months of planning, Roy drove out to Long Island from Cincy this past weekend. Our goal.....to retrofit the CC2, in my home, with the Wapin Bridge system. We began working last Friday morning and continued, 12 hours per day, for 3 full days. Tools and piano parts everywhere, but so was an intense anticipation, on both our parts, of the ultimate outcome. Could a piano that was so terrific already, REALLY be made THAT much better? Roy had sent me a CD with a professor from the Cincinnati Conservatory playing two "Wapinized" pianos....a Baldwin Baby Grand and a Steinway "D". That CD was what clinched it for me. The sound of those two pianos, which, by the way, was NOT enhanced by equalization on the recording, was incredible. I felt it would be worth it to go ahead with the modification on my own instrument. I am happy to say, without hesitation, that this was the most amazing transformation I could have ever imagined. Every note on the CC2 is now perfectly pure, clear, rich and resonant. The sustain goes on forever. Playing the beast is even more pleasurable than it was before, since it has become much more controllable at both ends of the dynamic spectrum. I really can't laud this Wapin system enough. I am VERY surprised that one of the major manufacturers hasn't incorporated this invention into their manufacturing process. Roy tells me that he now makes it a standard upgrade component in every rebuild he does. While I'm on the subject of Roy Peters, let me just say that he is a Piano Technician's Technician. Knowledgable and experienced in all aspects of rebuilding, action work, tuning and repair, he was a pleasure to work with and learn from. This guy REALLY knows his stuff!!!! Anyway, for those of you who would like to know more, I am attaching the link to Wapin's site. You can ask any question you like of me as well, although I cannot discuss the specific methods we used to install the system, I will be happy to answer anything else you might want to know.

Wapin Web Page

This looks like a variation on the Phoenix bridge pin system, correct?

Derick

Hi Derick,
I'm not familiar with the Phoenix system. Can you describe it?

Just went to the Hurstwood site to look into it. The ultimate effect is the same, but the way he is accomplishing it is different. Looks like they are using an offshoot of Stuart's agraffe system to maintain the string vibration in the vertical plane. Michael Wathen, inventor of the Wapin Bridge, did these physical sound studies in the mid 1990's and the Wapin bridge was born from his findings. The result is not achieved using agraffes, but a patented bridge pin configuration.

I can read the excitement in your notes!

Did I read between the lines that you are going to make a CD for us?

;-)

LL

Yes, the Phoenix system is a take-off on the Stuart design. Interesting. Did it take them 8 hours to do this on your piano? I believe the Phoenix system takes much longer to install.

Derick

I have to get myself an adequate recording system first Roberta. That will be my next project. In the meantime, I can post tracks from the Wapin CD I have at home. It won't be until later today or tomorrow, since I am now at work. I was also waiting to plan my piano party until after I got this accomplished. Now I can push forward with that, so that those of you who would like to play and hear this for yourselves may do so. Probably would work best if planned sometime in March or April, given the potential for nasty weather this time of year. I'll keep you posted.

Derick,
I assisted Roy Peters in the installation, so there were two sets of hands and heads to help each other and figure out how to work around difficult situations. It took us 3 days, 12 hours each day of pretty much constant work, stopping only for meals and coffee. It was an amazing experience.

CC2, I'm glad that this project worked out so well for you. However, I have heard of people who were very unhappy with the Wapin conversion. I have no idea if this relates to the skill of the person doing the conversion, the scale design of the specific piano, or other factors. ...some food for thought.

Hi Roy,
Can't speak to that either, however, after participating in the process of its installation, I can definitely see where having a less than top notch technician doing the work has potential for all kinds of complications and issues. As it was, we ran into several that had to be overcome in order to make it work. Also, there is a vast difference, in ease of installation, between performing the upgrade as part of the rebuilding process versus doing it the way we did as a retrofit. It is much more complex this way. I can only say that, with proper installation and expertise, the result is nothing short of amazing. Roy Peters is a real top notch craftsman.

Hi CC2, I take it all the strings had to be removed for the work? If so, does the pin block suffer at all from this? Would be interested to know if all pianos, benefit from this. I would be afraid that I would not like the sound after it was installed. I guess there is no way to know what it will sound like until after it's installed. Do you have a before and after recording?

The pinblock is not harmed in any way. If you feel you would NOT like your piano to have more clarity, richness and immense sustain, I would definitely advise against you having Wapin done on it. The before and after recordings Roy took were in a program that measured the frequency and harmonicity ranges. Roy has to load the result into another analysis program to get the result.

Wapin retrofit, Stanwoodisation, Fandrich vertical actions.....

Knowing the piano industry is partly very old fashioned and sticks to traditions, I still wonder why not big manufacturers like Yamaha, with resources and ambitions, have developed something similar...

I somehow associate these inventions with the screens you install in front of TV and computer monitor to improve the picture, devices that remove static elctricity from cars, TUNE-UP additives that allowes a car motor run without oil both in Alaska and desert climate...and saves gasoline, increasing the output at the same time.

But some things may be true even if they seems too good.

P.S. The Mason & Hamlin - "the best piano in the world" - can obviously still be improved.

I find this discussion rather interesting - both from the underlying physical questions (I am a physicist by training, so as much as I want something to sound and feel nice, I want to know why), and from the point of piano purchase.

When visiting the Steingräber "factory" ("workshops" appears to be the more appropriate term) later this year (date still to be fixed), I will try to make sure that they also have a piano with the Phoenix system (bridge agraffes) there to directly compare.

I find the idea underlying the Phoenix and Wapin systems (which I understand is the same - but the implementation differs ?) quite compelling, but actually hearing it would be important to me.

Markus

Jan-Erik,
I would not make the Stanwood or Wapin Piano upgrades, in any way, analogous to the "snake oil" type of hyped up, data poor inventions you cite in your example. For one thing, both of these innovations are supported by years of scientific research and study. Their effects have been measured and documented, and, WHEN PROPERLY INSTALLED, I, and many others, can testify to their efficacy. Regarding your last line......yes, I believe just about ANY piano can be improved with the PROPER alterations. Those alterations may be as simple as voicing, regulation or changing of hammers, or as radical as what I have done to mine.

MJS,
The Phoenix and Wapin systems are quite different from one another in HOW they accomplish the improvement in sound of the pianos they are installed on, but the ultimate result is the same, I would expect. I would wholeheartedly recommend you make the effort, as you said you would, to play, and listen to, pianos that have been altered in this way, in order to formulate your own opinions about them.

CC2:
Thank you for the kind words. It was a pleasure working with you, and you were an outstanding host. I didn't know what to expect, driving 700 plus miles to spend a few days working with someone I had never met. But I didn't need to worry.

The piano certainly turned out well. Clear singing treble, and a bass that was as deep as any I've heard. What a nice piano!

One thing I would point out is that this was exactly the kind of sound that CC2 was looking for. Fortunately, he was a high end sound system, and could really hear the clarity on the Wapin Bridge CD. I have heard that CD many times, but never on a system like that. It really sounds great. He said "That's what I want". Also, we had a good piano to work with. Whoever rebuilt it did a nice job overall. Good piano work is the summation of alot of small details. It really is. It's no one thing. In this case, Wapin was just the thing the piano needed. It really sings now.

Well, off to work...

Roy or CC2.....I have a M&H BB w/Stanwood upgrade already done...it is great. Is Wapin system compatible w/Stanwood or is it either/or?

Sorry, I haven't had enough time to read the Wapin info...I hope this question is not redundant....
Thanks,
Mat D.

Mat:
You can do both. They work very well together, but are independent of one another. I have both on my piano at home.

I have had many reactions similar to CC2's from Wapin installations. If I wasn't getting positive responses from customers, I would stop using it. In my experience, people have always been pleased with the results. I haven't had a single complaint, and usually it's been an enthusiastist response.

That said, I have customers for whom I wouldn't recommend it. One lady, who owns a nice Steinway B, always reminds me every time I go to tune to keep it "dark" . She doesn't want stretch, or a bright sound at all. She is an excellent player, and knows what she wants. I don't think that Wapin would be the sound for her.

What I like about Wapin is that it enables me to get clarity out of a piano without putting on hard hammers or using lacquer. That's why people juice up hammers... they want to be able to clearly hear it. With Wapin, you can use cold-pressed hammers and still get clarity. There is more depth to the tone overall, because the hammers are still resilient.

So now we shall not more argue about the superiority of, say Steinway or Bösendorfer, but of Wapin-Stanwood-Steinway or Wapin-Stanwood-Bösendorfer?

Which brand is the best raw material for tuning and rebuilding, that is the question of today. perhaps you should choose a cheap Chineese piano and put the saved money on Wapin-Stanwood-treament.

No Bechstein on the reference list might mean that Bechstein owners believe that their pianos are best when kept in top original shape.

Personally I tend to believe (?) that refined digital systems by the time will beat any accoustic grand (where you have electric supply), as you can manipulate e.g. the sustain infinitely and taylor-make the action without all the mechinical restrictions adhered to the accoustic pianos.

This new wave of piano development will influence the composers in the same way as Chopin and Liszt took advantage of the "new" grands of their time.

P.S. Are there already Wapinized pianos on the concert stages?

P.P.S Which company can offer a 20 % upgrading of my pianoplaying. I could reserve 6 h + 6 h, taking an active part in the process myself...

That's funny.

Actually, we did an interesting comparison a few years ago for one of our chapter PTG meetings. There were 6 concert grands on the same stage due to construction at the conservatory here (University of Cincinnati). There was a Bosie Imperial, 3 Steinway D's, a Kawai EX, and a Yamaha CFIII. There were about a half dozen grad students and a dozen techs. The students would play the same pieces on the pianos, and we would all form a consensus opinion. We eliminated them one by one. In the end it was declared a tie between the Bosendorfer Imperial and the rebuilt 1929 Steinway D (which had both Wapin and Stanwood on it). The newest Steinway D was a close third.