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#1292240 - 10/23/09 05:31 AM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: BDB]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4891
Loc: Bradford County, PA
It can be tough to define the line between teasing and jabbing. The effect on the recipient is what is important.

The only advertising I do is an occasional newpaper ad. That really isn't much different than the Craig List. Sometimes it shows up on the internet in other listings.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1292280 - 10/23/09 08:34 AM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: UnrightTooner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
It can be tough to define the line between teasing and jabbing. The effect on the recipient is what is important...


Good point Jeff, and it is also true that the recipients own levels of sensitivities play an important part of how they respond to their perceptions. Determining what is hurtful or not is like trying to define pornography, Larry Flint and Pastor XXX would have extremely different views; the rest of us would suffice to say "I'll know it when I see it". I do not envy the position this puts a forum moderator in.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1292320 - 10/23/09 10:25 AM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Emmery]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
I am not sure what your point is Jerry....that your going to keep plugging the PTG here ad naseum?


I was only trying to answer your question Emmery. The whole point at this time is that none of us in here should cut down members of the PTG and none of the members should cut down non-members. If we choose to be a member then, that's our choice. If you choose not to be one I do not begrudge you for that and think just as highly of your abilities as I did before. It is obvious to me from your answers that you are a knowledgeable tech.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1292368 - 10/23/09 12:04 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada


Some things to just think about today for everyone:

Quote from Groot:
--------------------------------------------------------------
“The whole point at this time is that none of us in here should cut down members of the PTG and none of the members should cut down non-members.”
--------------------------------------------------------------
Well this happened in the first 3 postings of this thread. I read the ad several times before it was flagged for removal, and moreover you have to wonder why suddenly it was flagged and removed.

Yes the ad was poorly written.

Maybe the fellow does not have a good command of the English language. Did anyone contact him to find out? No.

Maybe the fellow was not experienced in advertising. Did anyone take a moment to try to find out? No.

Maybe the guy was attempting to mis-lead prospective clients and maybe not. Did anyone try to contact him to find that out also? No.

But let’s sit on the forum and call his writing, integrity and his quality of work into question instead.

So now we have a fellow who lives in the Orange County area, that has had his ad removed, and he may not have a good enough command of the English language to understand why. After all, if you take a moment to think about this, he is just trying to scratch a living from the dry earth just like the rest of us.

Sometimes I advertise on Craigslist, not pianos, but other things, garage sale items, jewelry, old sheet music etc. Does that make me a Technician of a Lesser God too?

And it was clearly noted in a simply worded statement from Randy Karasik that was brilliant in its insightfulness. Here it is again……….

Quote from Karasik:
--------------------------------------------------------------
“I have some concern however, that this particular tuner was judged not on the work that he does or how well he treats his customers, but only by his method of advertising.”
--------------------------------------------------------------
Is this a demonstration of what we are to become here? Who is to be singled out next for discrimination? And who should decide? Should we discriminate against the fellow that decides to wear blue jeans? How about that left-handed red-head? Or the guy who had a bad accident and now has a crushed or deformed face? Or the fellow that walks with a limp? How about the guy who is visually impaired?

Where does it end? Maybe someone will find something about you next, huh?

My first instinct when I read the ad? I thought of contacting the fellow and asking if he would have liked some assistance with his English. Not to insult the fellow but to try to make his and my world a better place.

I am wondering why I should have a desire to remain here with crap like this going on. That gets me to thinking about why some of the regulars do not post here any longer……………………………

Many people who I talk to in life want the world to be a better place. I hear this all the time. Want the world to be a better place? Try starting with the guy YOU SEE in the mirror every day.

A very dated quote now but on point:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.



Best wishes always...see you sometime....
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1292402 - 10/23/09 12:52 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT

For example, RPD is a non member. I know of his reputation from asking around here in town ....


Why, thank you sir! ( I only quoted part so it didn't seem like shameless self promotion lol)...

That's the thing...our reputations are only as good as our referrals, and those will stop in real time!! if we don't do good work and try for excellence...there is ALWAYS much to learn and I for one am very grateful for all the assistance from PTG members and others like Dan who sent me a bag of goodies worth 10 times what I paid him...

This is, in the balance, a great place to hang out with like minded folks...

Its a small world...we're brothers (and sisters) all in the trades...corny or not, that's the way it is....

Have a GREAT weekend all of you! I'm moving a piano in the rain today...;-)

RPD

PS, Bill's article, mentioned above, IS a good read...very understandable....
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1292419 - 10/23/09 01:06 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
www.ptg.org is the source I usually recommend to find a trustworthy technician. Nothing is infallible (note that i said, nothing is infallible) but, I would personally have to question anyone that needed Craig's list for advertisement to stay busy...


This is all I said about it. I did not cut anyone down.

I wrote some other things and decided to simply delete them all after I posted and re-read it. Maybe it was read, maybe not. It's not worth it to continue this.

The most unfortunate thing that I see here is that some of you simply refuse to apologize for any offense that has taken place while others have.

Craig's list may or may not be a good place for advertising for tuning. From what I've seen of it in my own town, those that have advertised on it for tuning, I would not hire.

Yes, looking in the mirror is a great place to start.... Let's ALL think about that and do it.



Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (10/23/09 01:10 PM)
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1292420 - 10/23/09 01:06 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Well, we should be grateful that we can practice what we do best without unnecessary interference from the government and yes, even our peers. Our actions, reputations and satisfied customers speak louder than any words we can spin or groups/organizations we align ourselves with. Now, if we could only get our politicians to understand this in respect to their own careers.

I have found that often I will write something for posting or mailing and leave it sit on my computer for some time and when I come back and read it, I decide to delete it. Aside from saving face in regrettable/embarrassing situations, it helps remove underlying emotions that cloud the meaning of what I really intended to say. Its a good policy that I recommend to others.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1292454 - 10/23/09 01:46 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Emmery]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
sick
Ahhh forget it...

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#1292458 - 10/23/09 01:50 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Emmery]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Jerry, you keep saying you are chastised for only mentioning the PTG, hogwash. You "recommended" the PTG members, on the virtue of being trustworthy. There is a HUGE difference and it spits in the face of all the trustworthy techs out there who decided not to pay the yearly ransoms for their credentials. Besides, your opinion appears highly biased for the fact that as I mentioned earlier, there is no test by any school or institution for being "trustworthy". Now if your point was to indicate to everyone you don't trust much anyone outside the organization enough to usually recommend them...pointless point, well taken. Whether you meant that or not...its what I read in the print. If you don't understand this, then simply put up a post here to the effect..."Christians.com is the source I usually recommend to find a trustworthy technician"...see how much love that brings you.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1292512 - 10/23/09 02:59 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Emmery]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Emmery, I don't know what you are reading into Jerry's posts. As an outsider, I don't see any bias in what he writes. Seems pretty even-handed to me. He has indicated numerous times already that he respects and recommends at least one non-PTG technician, who incidentally posts here. The truth is, the PTG guys who tried to defend themselves in the last dust-up had their hands slapped for doing so while the non-PTG people seemed on the face of things to get a free pass. Jerry's being conciliatory here; I suggest that you take the proverbial olive branch and bury the hatchet.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1292554 - 10/23/09 04:31 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Horowitzian]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
The truth is, the PTG guys who tried to defend themselves in the last dust-up had their hands slapped for doing so while the non-PTG people seemed on the face of things to get a free pass.


One of the PTG members in the last dust-up got an imposed "holiday" from this place by the moderator who was just here. That was for his extremist views. The very same person has been banned from other piano tech forums for the very same reason.
The result of that dust-up is the permanent posting at the top of this tech forum.
If members would like to attempt to state the truth make sure the facts are correct. Because this claim is not truth it is complete fiction.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1292578 - 10/23/09 05:09 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Yes, I'm aware of that Dan. However, the point is, his actions unfairly rubbed off on other people here. And they got punished too.

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
[...]
If members would like to attempt to state the truth make sure the facts are correct. Because this claim is not truth it is complete fiction.


Ummmm, what? Perhaps you better rephrase that. confused
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1292583 - 10/23/09 05:23 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I am not concerned about who got moderated when and why...I'm sure it was well deserved because I don't see indiscriminate moderation at this forum. I have respect for the majority of information and the people whom it comes from here but if someone is going to direct respect away from otherwise good techs, let them use facts, not biased assumptions that cannot be supported by fact. I stand by my statement that being a member of the "organization" doesn't make a tech more trustworthy or competent for that matter(compared to those who don't belong)...not any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1292595 - 10/23/09 05:50 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Horowitzian]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Yes, I'm aware of that Dan. However, the point is, his actions unfairly rubbed off on other people here. And they got punished too.



Then perhaps members need to consider their actions previous to taking any.

It is obvious that the complete picture of this history remains unknown to you. There were things going on in the background that no-one has been made aware of with the exception being the owner and the moderator, Ken Knapp.

This is how it will remain. There is no reason to enlighten other members, who were not involved.

There is nothing to rephrase. Let it go and move on. I will not address this again.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1292604 - 10/23/09 06:14 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Emmery]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I stand by my statement that being a member of the "organization" doesn't make a tech more trustworthy or competent for that matter(compared to those who don't belong)....

That makes sense to me, but I didn't know the issue was whether being a PTG member or RPT is evidence on its face of being a better tech. Rather, I thought it was that a minimal level of proficiency and competence is assured—in theory—by the guild's standards and testing requirements.

Even if the bar for membership were so low as to be meaningless to the experts in this field, is there any assurance that a non-member would meet even that low standard?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1292606 - 10/23/09 06:26 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Yes, I'm aware of that Dan. However, the point is, his actions unfairly rubbed off on other people here. And they got punished too.



Then perhaps members need to consider their actions previous to taking any.


Obviously.

Quote:
It is obvious that the complete picture of this history remains unknown to you. There were things going on in the background that no-one has been made aware of with the exception being the owner and the moderator, Ken Knapp.

This is how it will remain. There is no reason to enlighten other members, who were not involved.


And yet you seem to have an air of familiarity? I call it as I see it. I'm glad Ken has made it clear that it's not okay for the bashing to go either way.

Quote:
There is nothing to rephrase. Let it go and move on. I will not address this again.


The sentence makes no grammatical sense, is what I was hinting at. I can't tell what you were trying to say, or who you meant by "members".
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1292619 - 10/23/09 06:47 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Piano Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 400
Loc: Southern Ontario,Canada
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
www.ptg.org is the source I usually recommend to find a trustworthy technician. Nothing is infallible but, I would personally have to question anyone that needed Craig's list for advertisement to stay busy...


Its just that saying you use that source to find a "trustworthy" person, by implication says, outside of that, means they are not trustworthy. Even if thats not what you meant, passers by might get that impression.
_________________________
Richard, the"Piano Guy"
Piano Moving Tuning & Repair
From London ON to Fort Erie ON

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#1292641 - 10/23/09 07:24 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Piano Guy]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
Jerry, you keep saying you are chastised for only mentioning the PTG, hogwash. You "recommended" the PTG members, on the virtue of being trustworthy. There is a HUGE difference and it spits in the face of all the trustworthy techs out there who decided not to pay the yearly ransoms for their credentials. Besides, your opinion appears highly biased for the fact that as I mentioned earlier, there is no test by any school or institution for being "trustworthy". Now if your point was to indicate to everyone you don't trust much anyone outside the organization enough to usually recommend them...pointless point, well taken. Whether you meant that or not...its what I read in the print. If you don't understand this, then simply put up a post here to the effect..."Christians.com is the source I usually recommend to find a trustworthy technician"...see how much love that brings you.


If we were not being chastised for being a PTG member, or for the mention of the name "PTG or RPT" this discussion would not have been started and complaints would not have been received by the moderator's. Furthermore, it would have ended peacefully long ago as it should have. For some reason, you cannot let it go. Your words speak for themselves and obviously, others are seeing what I am seeing or they would not be adding their two cents worth.

Emmery, what is it about us that you hate so much anyway? I don't get it.

The majority of RPT's are in fact, trustworthy, honest and excellent technicians. I know this from 40 years of dealing with them. From my experience from seeing their work, attending their work sessions, seminars and conventions all put on by the PTG. If I thought for a minute that one of them were not trustworthy and granted not every one of them is, but then, for that matter, neither is every non member, then I would not recommend them and I would also report them to the PTG which I have done on occasion.

We should all strive to be the best that we can be (members or non members). It is up to us for our entire life time not a school, not the PTG, to make sure our skills remain at a high level, that we remain honest, that our integrity and ethics remains high as does our quality.

Nobody can prevent anyone out there from doing shoddy workmanship on any level whether that person be a member or a non member and I resent the fact that you call it "yearly ransoms for credentials." We pay dearly for these credentials. Not only by passing their tests which are a lot harder than you can imagine but by attending seminars and conventions. For example, even though I live in GR where the convention took place by the time I completed the week, my expenses surpassed $1,500. Not to mention the fact that I lost another $3,000 worth of income by not working that week.

Let me also ask, why some of you receive the PTG journal and read it, if you dispise the PTG so much? And, why are some of you members of the Canadian Association of Piano Technicians if membership is so meaningless?

Horowitzian and Solo are quite correct in their assumptions and statements. I am trying to be as non biased as possible but your continued attitude regarding us is rather annoying and should be stopped.

Pianoguy, if you read my other posts, you will see that I also recommend non PTG members.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1292642 - 10/23/09 07:24 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3169
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
The truth is, the PTG guys who tried to defend themselves in the last dust-up had their hands slapped for doing so while the non-PTG people seemed on the face of things to get a free pass.


One of the PTG members in the last dust-up got an imposed "holiday" from this place by the moderator who was just here. That was for his extremist views. The very same person has been banned from other piano tech forums for the very same reason.
The result of that dust-up is the permanent posting at the top of this tech forum.
If members would like to attempt to state the truth make sure the facts are correct. Because this claim is not truth it is complete fiction.


Nothing could be further from the truth. You guys better stop, this has gone too far. What do you think you will accomplish? I voluntarily withdrew from Pianotech because of a dispute with someone who continually chose to trash the development of the EBVT. We are now friends. I don't subscribe to Pianotech because I don't want 75 e-mails a day that I don't want to read and have to delete.

What I will do is reply to posts as I see fit and express my opinion and give advice according to my knowledge and experience.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1292658 - 10/23/09 08:18 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: sotto voce]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: sotto voce

Even if the bar for membership were so low as to be meaningless to the experts in this field, is there any assurance that a non-member would meet even that low standard?

Steven


It would depend on the non-members' background and own accreditation/experience. There are and have been schools with far more in depth testing of both tuning and piano related theory and practice than the "low bar" one you refer to. I don't really think its that low as some people think, its more or less tempered to a level that is challenging, yet not so much as to lose recruitment revenue. Even the best of schools don't raise the bar so high they have no graduates to represent them. The point is that no independent audit or unbiased comparison has ever been done and no authority exists that comparatively passes judgment on the end result of any tests. It is not uncommon for highly respected technicians that are not RPT's to be lecturing or giving seminars at the PTG conventions, just the same as highly acclaimed PTG members often do the same at non PTG affiliated schools and institutions. It seems as if the issue of "credentials" is a non issue in environments that are truly conducive to learning...so why not here? Ironically, some people in my opinion have a natural knack for tuning and require less school and testing than others to be good at it. Mark Twain once commented that if he just wanted to learn the meaning of the word "redundancy" his nature didn't fit the scenario of sitting in a formal class room and writing the word out 500 times to understand it.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1292701 - 10/23/09 09:48 PM Re: question about a tuner/ restorer [Re: Emmery]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2547
Loc: Not in Texas
This thread has certainly taken a number of "interesting" and disappointing turns from the original topic and seems to have long since outlived its usefulness.
_________________________
Greg

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