Hi Dan,
Just got back from my second trip down to Houston and was catching up on some threads when I came across this one. I wish I'd have been here to stop by while you were modifying your CC2. Considering how incredible your piano was before, I can only imagine what it must be like now. Glad to hear you're thrilled with the outcome. I'll get in touch over the next week.
Best regards,
Roger

I have had people contact me concerning the Wapin Bridge CD. It is available for sale on the Amazon.com site. I don't want to be in the CD distribution business, so I would ask that anyone who is interested purchase it there. Thank you.

This pertains to the new piano question, and was a "blind test" I think. The Wapin Co. did an experiment where they had a university which wanted to purchase a piano. I believe that it was in Siuox Falls, South Dakota, where Tim Coates (one of the Wapin Co. owners) lives. What they did was to unbox and prep two grands of the same make and model. They were Young Chang grands, and I believe that they were 185's. The faculty picked which one they liked the best. The Wapin guys converted the one which was deemed to be the worst of the two with the Wapin Bridge. Then they let the faculty pick again. The Wapinized piano was chosen this time. I think that this was done as a blind test, that they somehow covered up the soundboard. I was not involved in this, and have only heard about it.

Here is a picture of the sound envelope which I took on note A4 of Dan's piano. This is the Time Series view. The sample on top (left channel) is the Wapinized sample. The lower panel shows the sound envelope prior to Wapin. I took samples in mono, and then loaded them into seperate channels. Wapin was the only change made. I didn't use any special equipment, only the microphone built into my laptop. The laptop was placed in the same postion each time. I have more images to post, but wanted to try this first.

OK, that seemed to work. Here is note A5.

Roy,

I wonder what the spectrum looks like for these notes.

OK. The good news is that thanks to the guys over on the tuner-tech forum, I have figured out how to properly post a picture. There are alot of different ways of looking at the signal. I have worked up a couple of examples. Here is note A4, the full spectrum. The first thing I see is that the 3rd and 4th partials are stronger...


Here is a view of the upper partials of the same spectrum. You can see that there is more definition in the upper partials.

Based on your spectral displays, the wapinized piano should sound a bit brighter. Is that your perception?

Roy123,
"Brighter", to me, implies a certain harshness....lots of attack with a minimum of partial overtones and sustain. That is not, at all, what the piano sounds like. Because the
Wapin pins do not partially mute the strings, as it is theorized the traditional front slanted pins do, the sound improvement manifests itself as clearer.....clearer fundamentals, as well as clearer, and more powerful, partials. It's more like the distortion was removed and the volume was pumped up in all those frequency ranges that the human ear is most sensitive to.

CC2 nails it. Some might call the sound brighter, but I would say "clearer". I agree that there might just be less distortion, or noise. At the end of the job, I sat and listened while he played some of his favorite Chopin pieces. The piano now has a bell like clarity through the treble that sort of just hangs there. It really was beautiful.

The testing I have done somewhat bears out the "less noise" theory. In general, the numbers for Total Harmonic Distortion and the Signal to Noise Ratio are usually improved on Wapinized pianos.

Here is another screen shot. This one is for note D3 at peak signal. You can see that the 2nd and 3rd partials are obviously stronger on the top sample. The numbers for Total Harmonic Distortion are drastically improved on this note.

CC2 Chopin- You're brave, I might consider buying a piano with this modification after I heard it but I dont think I cold bring myself to install something like that on my own piano for fear I wouldn't like the result.

LJC,
Brave? I prefer to think of it more as open minded. I researched Wapin, and the science behind it, well before considering it for the CC2. Given the quality of my piano to begin with, I just knew that, with proper installation, it could only give an even better end product. Proper installation was the key....that's why I contacted Roy Peters. He has a tremendous amount of experience in all of the aspects of piano rebuilding and modification that is required to make this successful, plus, he has extensive experience in Wapin retrofits as well. Who does not want their piano to be clearer, with less harmonic distortion, more volume in the desireable fundamental and partial overtones and significantly more sustain? Besides, if I didn't like it, I would have just had the bridge recapped and pinned in the traditional way again.
Dan

I was very intrigued by the Wapin modification and CC2's enthusiastic praises about it. I recently received several CD's from the company. I am very impressed with the sound of the "Wapinized" Steinway D on one of the CD's. I made some MP3's of several of the selections so that you can all give a listen. To me, the Steinway sounds glorious. At least, it gives you an idea what Wapin can do for a Tier 1 piano. The pianist is Richard Morris.

(MP3 link removed, as it is evidently against the law to post links to protected material.)

No.13 is quite something.

Thank you for putting the recordings on the web. I feared I would never hear a "Wapinized" piano-and they are so very worth listening to.

And a funny, sad, pathetic, whatever moment...After hearing all the praise about the Wapin, I contacted a local Wapin approved tech via email to get an estimate. He pretty much said that the Wapin would only have benefits if my entire piano was overhauled and even then, the financial cost would end up costing four times the value of my piano-not worth it at all. At least he was honest, but it was certainly a bitter pill to take.

A sad response indeed! The local Certified Wapin Installer gave you incorrect advice. I have done more Wapin Bridge Installations than anybody. I helped develope many of the installation techniques Roy Peters uses. I have had greater results from installing just the Wapin Bridge without doing any other work to the piano. The strings do not have to be removed. The bridge does not need to be recapped. If your piano has a value of at least $2500 it is the most cost effective change you can make to your piano IMHO. Perhaps you should re-examine the Wapin Website to read remarks from people who only had the Wapin Bridge installed without any other work.

I wholeheartedly agree with Tim on this. I believe ANY piano can benefit from this upgrade. You probably stand to see a greater difference, given the current state of your piano, than even I did with mine. If you understand the science behind what Wapin does, you will understand why we are saying this.

CC2-You could be open minded and still be concerned with what your final result will be on your piano. Having this done on a pinao you already own seems to me to be similar to buying a piano to be rebuilt before it is rebuilt. I am glad everything worked out to your satisfaction. I guess I'm more cautious than you. Again I might consider such a system on a prospective purchase but I would need to hear it first.

LJC,
As I said, if it had not lived up to my expectation, I would have taken steps to restore it to its former state, but, unlike a total rebuild, I knew that Wapin would take my piano's already inherent potential and develop it fully. I think you would be hard pressed to find anybody, who has had it done properly on their piano, who did not think the result was an improvement. That being said, you have every right to be cautious with your valued possessions....vive' la difference! By the way, for all those interested, "grandpianoman" is working here in New York for a few months and will be coming to my home tonight to see, and listen to, my pianos. He can give you all his impression afterward....stay tuned.

Well everyone, I had a great time at CC2's home last night. He has 2 wonderful pianos, the 1924 M&H CC and a beautiful Bubinga Estonia. The Wapin bridge modification sounded fantastic on the CC. The tone was so clear and the sustain was incredible. I have no doubts about doing this to my RBB now, after hearing the CC.

I also understand now why people are gaga over the Estonia piano. It has a beautiful tone and is certainly beautiful to look at. The build quality is also exceptional.

Thanks again for your hospitality CC2! GP

GP:
Dan is a fine host. I had a great time there. I'm glad that you liked the piano. It's alot of piano, isn't it? It really should be on a concert stage somewhere.

I was also impressed with the Estonia 190. It was my first real esperience with an Estonia. I have seen them at conventions, but never somewhere where I felt that I could really listen well.

It's great to see Tim Coates posting here. He's someone who has alot to offer. He has been invaluable in helping me to become a better Wapin installer. He's done alot of them. Like he says, once you start installing Wapin, and getting use to what it does, there really is very little risk. It has improved every piano I have used it on. Sometimes more than others, but I have always felt that it was worth the effort.

I have posted a couple of MP3's to my website. These are not off of CD's so it should be OK. We have received permission from the pianist. There are two there now, and I will try to add more in the next couple of days. Currently, one is on a 1929 Steinway D, and the other is on a 1913 Baldwin C (6'3"). Here is the link

Wapin Sound Files

Thanks guys,
I enjoyed having each of you in my home and getting to know you as friends. This is just another example of the power of the piano......bringing people together who otherwise would never meet, and having such a wonderful passion to share. You guys, along with Ori Bukai and Jolly Roger, are all class acts in you're own right. I love sharing my pianos and my music with people who can really appreciate them. You're right, the Wapin CC2 and Estonia 190 are both very special instruments. When I play them I have to pinch myself at my luck in having them!! I definitely have to set up a piano party in the near future, after we no longer have to fear snow and ice storms around these parts. Grandpianoman, I very much look forward to you singing for us at that one as well.....by the way, thanks so much for the MP3's you sent me, they sound awesome!!! Take care guys, and keep in touch.
Dan

I just noticed that the Wapin folks have some new mp3's on their website, as examples of what a grand piano that has had the Wapin modification sounds like. Very nice sound!

http://www.wapin.com/podcastsbeta_1.html

I believe two of those are the same ones Roy posted earlier John.

CC@ If you have a piano party I'm in. I'd like to have some new near by piano friends.

OK LJC, you're in. I'll keep everyone posted on the date. Like I said, I want to be sure the weather craziness is done before I make plans. Grandpianoman is going to bring his accompaniest and sing for us as well. He's amazing!!! Ori and Jolly Roger wanted to be here too, so we already have a nice little group going....now we just need some of the ladies.

My piano is down two strings due to a longitudinal mode and a problem with my ears. The strings are getting replaced. LM's are a complex issue but, have you ever measured the before and after strength of LM's on a piano getting a Wapin bridge.

I ask, because a more defined string termination at the bridge would effect the speaking length of the string for a LM. That point isn't always at the bridge as I understand it.

Just curious.

Todd

What are longitudinal modes? What do they sound like?

CC2, you're right, they are the same, just the Schubert is new.

Transverse modes are the string moving perpendicular to its length. Longitudinal modes move along the string length. I like to think of it as the string stretching and compressing but I'm not sure that's an accurate description of the physics.

They are often set off by the sum of two consecutive partials like the 6th and 7th. My sixth and 7th are exciting a LM which fall next to the 13th partial. My ear is very sensitive to it because of an odd hearing curve, but once I showed Richard, my dealer/tuner/tech what I was hearing, he could also easily hear it. It is present on almost every A I have ever heard, and most M&H AA's.

In fact, I have a feeling that a some of people who find some notes in the bass of M&H's A and AA harsh, are hearing the higher order LM's and thinking they are harmonics/partials.

The LM in bass strings is related to both the length of the string, and the core to winding ratios, and probably other factors I don't understand. If you want to know more, we should probably start another thread. My thinking, however, was that if the bridge resolves LM's in the tenor and treble, where the string core to winding can't be tweaked, then it could be a cure to people who are bothered by LM's in those areas. And there seem to be quite a few people who have their pianos voiced down a lot to try and get rid of LM's thinking they are harsh harmonics.

Todd