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#1011280 - 03/29/08 01:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee - the youtube link you posted right above at 3:29 PM is the same as the second youtube link you posted at 2:51 PM.
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"Color tones, can't live without them"

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#1011281 - 03/29/08 03:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
oops...corrected
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#1011282 - 03/29/08 03:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
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#1011283 - 03/31/08 01:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
\:\) Thanks to all for pointing me to the right direction and Jazzwee for your detailed pointers.

Next, I am going to try the Evans arp variation for Autumn Leaves.

Question:

1. Last time I did the Evans arps going up and down, the 9th was on the upbeat, does it matter whether the 9th is on beat or off beat?

For eg. can I do something like this?

Am7 -- C E E C B G E G

(The C and the B is next to one another)

2. Using the same 80bpm, what is the swing ratio?

Rosa

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#1011284 - 03/31/08 01:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Hi Rosa, for the Arp exercise, all notes are chord tones with the 9th being the only extension so here we're not going to worry about whether it is on the upbeat or downbeat as the bulk of the notes already define the harmony.

So it doesn't matter. 80bpm is not normally a tempo for jazz tunes so I'll generalize by saying that at 100bpm or thereabouts, you'll be using a maximum swing ratio (close to 2:1).

Most medium swing (non ballad) jazz tunes range form 100-160bpm or so after which they would be uptempo.

This is the range where swing IMO is distinctly heard.

Seeing that you're only practicing at 80bpm, I would play the swing as I would at 100bpm (i.e hard swing and strong accents on upbeats).

This is good that you're practicing this Rosa as this is a good source for jazz vocabulary even in ballad style.
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#1011285 - 04/01/08 04:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
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Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Bump.
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#1011286 - 04/01/08 07:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi All,

What's everyone been up to? I don't know how many of you are still practicing improvisation. I've been working hard on the Bill Evans ARP practice with left hand rootless. Also working up my voiced arrangement of ballad style AL. To be honest, I have been "happily" putting off improv practice. Improvising has always been a bit unnerving to me .... kind of like being thrown into the deep end of a swimming pool and not knowing how to swim. Then I read Jazzwee's comments from a few days ago (page 47):

 Quote:
But imperfection is ok as long as it's music creation IMHO. Jazz is about the moment and instantaneous creation. There's a thrill knowing you can play anything, sometimes you do it well, sometimes you don't. But the masters who can play well practically all the time is another source of amazement. [/b]
After I read this, it struck a nerve. I read it over several times. I then printed it out in large font so it took up the entire page of paper. That day, during my next Arp practice, I tried improvising using those familiar chord tones through the ninth. An amazing thing happened. I was no longer fearful. The fear that was associated with improvising has turned into excitement.

Jazzwee's words sit on my music stand when I practice my AL improvisation. I actually find it thrilling to create in the moment.

Thank you, Jazzwee for shedding some light on the subject of Jazz Improvisation. I bet you don't even realize it when you come up with these motivational gems.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011287 - 04/01/08 09:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
When I was watching my teacher play a couple of weeks ago, his group hasn't played together in over a year and aside from making the record, they don't ever practice.

Then they played at this gig and it's a concert setting, quiet, where everyone's playing is completely exposed. They were obviously not warmed up, probably just stepping to the piano for the first time.

Then in the first 30 seconds of playing, he plays a wrong note. No problem...he highlights the wrong note and plays another wrong note.

After that one tune, he was back in saddle like they've been playing everyday. Of course he felt bad about the wrong note especially since I noticed (well, of course I'm a jazzer so I would notice). But in a sense it was motivating. Here's a top player making mistakes. They always make a mistake.

The answer of course is that in jazz there is never a wrong note, as long as you play it like you mean it. So that's what I meant by that little 'motivational' phrase.

After this little experience, even I felt less concerned about playing in front of my teacher because I felt that since he can make mistakes, I can be entitled to that too.

So in case you don't know, I make TONS of mistakes. Hopefully that motivates you all as well. In general, the more complex we do stuff the more the chance of error. But do we take the easy way out (simplification)? Or do we challenge ourselves a little bit? For a complete learning experience, I think it is better to plod on knowing our imperfections.
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#1011288 - 04/02/08 02:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
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#1011289 - 04/02/08 10:48 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi Gang - Talk is cheap, so I decided to just go for it. Here is my right hand only doing some arp improvisation. I "boosted" the speed to a rollicking 105 bmp. I had been practicing improv the past few days at 90 bpm. This morning, I relistened to Deeluk's latest and clocked him at around 105. So, I got brave and set the tempo there.

When I add the left hand rootless, the speed has to be slower. Didn't want to put you to sleep listening to that ;\)

http://www.box.net/shared/r4v3ilegwo
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A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011290 - 04/02/08 10:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Barb, that sounded great! You're playing with a great sense of confidence and purpose. Nothing to be afraid of with those arps. They're challenging to be sure. But doable. And you got my speed almost right. I think I had it dialed in at 108 on my last posting. Not sure where I got 108 from, I think it's one of the stops on my metronome weight.

I haven't made much progress on the piano front since last time. Been covered in fiberglass insulation the past few nights. Afraid to touch the keyboard after that. I did manage to finally pick up the Real Book. I'm hoping to work on ATTYA along with the rest of the gang here.

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#1011291 - 04/02/08 12:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Articulation has improved greatly Barb!

Now combine stepwise movement with arps. Arps have more tension than stepwise moves so you have to balance the two in real improv. Also feel free to start your arps on different notes of the chord. Break the tendency to start at the same note.

A practice for this is to do a run of the chord by doing different inversions in sequence a chord tone apart. For example you can move in triads like this:

C E G E G B G B C B C E ...

This is a more long term exercise but allows you to feel more free to start at any point.

The next variation to this is to learn all the extensions as in:

C E G then D F A then E G B then F A C. Again the purpose of this is the same, to allow you visualize different starting points to create your lines.

I don't mean to say that all arps go up. You may freely reverse my examples to go down.

One other thing you need to think about is having pat endings to your lines. As I listen to your improv, there are many instances where you end with a hesitating chopped off eighth. You can solve that by memorizing variations in endings, particularly those utilizing LONG-SHORT eighths of the same note or just anything different. Consciously think of varying endings. It is ok for example to cut them off abrubtly in unexpected places.

Clearly your articulation practice has paid off because it sounds jazzy. Compare it to your first posts and it is night and day. Good luck with the next step!
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#1011292 - 04/02/08 12:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Deeluk - thank you for your uplifting words. I'm glad you mentioned your 108 speed. When I tried pacing your recording with my digital piano metronome, I did land on 108 as your speed. But, I used Band in a Box for my accompaniment and that increases by 5's. So, I tried it at 110, and that didn't work as well as 105.

I haven't started ATTYA. I need that warm, cozy feeling first with AL. You are pushing me along - which is a good thing. \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011293 - 04/02/08 12:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thank you, Jazzwee. Sounding jazzy, huh? You know how to make me smile!

I have a question regarding those extensions. Looks like the added tones are now 11 and 13. Can I assume that for the minor 7 I will play #13 (that would be F# in the A minor 7).

Also, for the major chords, the 11 would be a #11?
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011294 - 04/02/08 12:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Rintincop - I enjoyed that modified stride example. I use stride occasionally for movement when I play in ballad style. Why is it called "modified" stride in this example? I am hearing the low root on beats 1 and 3, and the closed voicings on beats 2 and 4. Wouldn't this be called "regular" stride?
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011295 - 04/02/08 02:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Thank you, Jazzwee. Sounding jazzy, huh? You know how to make me smile!

I have a question regarding those extensions. Looks like the added tones are now 11 and 13. Can I assume that for the minor 7 I will play #13 (that would be F# in the A minor 7).

Also, for the major chords, the 11 would be a #11? [/b]
Hi Barb, yes on Major 7 chords use #11, but there's no #13 because that's just b7 (just a syntax correction).

If the avoid note is just a passing tone (on the upbeat) then you can just follow the scale. G in this case. Or just don't play the avoid note. This is not a mechanical exercise though, I'm just having you visualize a chord via it's scale and extensions instantly.

It took awhile to get there myself but that really opens up options on how to play and I think that's one of the reasons a beginning improviser runs out of notes to play. So see all those notes for each chord (biasing towards major chord tones of course).
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#1011296 - 04/02/08 08:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Sorry about that #13, Jazzwee. I must have had a DUH moment :p

I've been working on my AL ballad style at 70 bpm. The right hand voicings are jazzy, but I'm not quite sure about correct articulation for slow ballads.

1. - I am able to drag the melody with conscious effort as it works with the left hand.

2. - I assume that at this slow speed, I am NOT to play the eighths long/short (the almost triplet feel of a heavy swing.)

3. - If #2 is true, would it be correct to still accent the offbeats in my eighth notes - while keeping the eighths even?

Thank you so much for your help.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011297 - 04/03/08 03:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb, I had to read it a couple of times to understand where you are going.

If I understand you right, you are asking about ballad playing. Yes you are correct that you would play ballads normally with no swing on eighth notes. 70bpm is very slow so yes swing here will sound hokey if you apply it to eighth notes.

BUT -- I believe, I said this a week or so ago, at 70 bpm, I personally would be playing a lot of 16th notes. These are quite doable here since they only be the equivalent of eights at 140bpm. These 16ths would be at the tempo of Medium swing and thus I would swing them. In other words, I would play the 16ths as if I were playing medium tempo eighths.

The rule is pretty simple actually, any notes played at a tempo simulating eighth notes somewhere between 100-160, I would swing. Otherwise I would play it straight.

If you listen to Hiromi's solo ballad, you will see her doing some heavy swinging of 16th notes later in the tune.

As a contrary example, if I'm capable of playing Confirmation at 300bpm (which I'm clearly not) \:D , I would play the eighths obviously very straight, but here, quarter notes can be swung.

I have to admit that when I was first taught to swing, I didn't understand this. But listening to a lot of jazz reveals this to be the reality so hopefully I'm saving you the trouble of having to figure this out like I did.

Or to simplify the rule:
"Swing when it sounds good".
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#1011298 - 04/03/08 03:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb, earlier you asked about extensions and downbeats/upbeats. I was thinking about this while practicing and I remember that Bill Evans would often play the 9th as the first note in his arps but on the offbeat (he might do 9-5-7-3). So this keeps him in synch with 5 and 3 landing on the downbeat.

In practice, it is probably impossible for an average person to do this 100% so the real key is if the listener can grasp the harmonic flow if there were no rhythm section. A few extensions here and there (like one note to a measure on downbeats), will probably sound like a substitution of the chord and won't sound bad. Critical area for chord tone matching per my teacher is the 1st note of the measure.

Hal Galper, in concept, is stricter by saying all downbeats. And general that's the goal, but like I said, what harmony is implied by playing an occasional non-chord tone? Is it harmony compatible with the tune? If it is, it will still work but the ear will conceptualize it as a reharmonization or chord substitution. Use your ear as a guide.

When a tone doesn't fit, it will be obvious in the sound (like it will imply a completely inappropriate chord).
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#1011299 - 04/03/08 04:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
That is very good Barb!! The 8th arps now give you long musical sentences plus your LH sounds great with them.

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#1011300 - 04/03/08 06:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thank you Rosa. I'm just playing right hand here. What you think is my left hand is the Band in a Box bass player. He's a talented guy! \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011301 - 04/03/08 07:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee, Thank you for the clarification. My husband is learning just as much as I am here. He thought that at slow tempos, (70 bpm), the upbeat of eighth runs could be accented while keeping the eighths at an even ratio. What I'm hearing you say is that at slow tempos, there is no swing ratio PLUS no upbeat accents.

I think where the communication was a bit hazy is on the term "SWING". We weren't sure if it has solely to do with the ratio when playing those eighths.

For example, when I play with a dragging (relaxed) feel on the melody, to me, that is a type of "swing".

So, to take it a step further, if I accent offbeats while keeping the eighths even, could that also be considered a non-hokey type of swing?

Sorry if we seem dense here. Internet communication does have it's drawbacks at times.

P.S. Those 16th note fills are what I will be adding to my ballads. I haven't done much of that in my arrangements -- but I will -- now that I know how to swing those runs!
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011302 - 04/03/08 05:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb, to me, there's two ways to drag. Dragging to swing or rubato playing. Rubato is more free form while swing (straight eights played off the beat), will land at a specific charleston type interval (usually a sixteenth before the beat or so).

Both types of dragging will restore itself to the normal tempo so in that sense they are similar.

I'm generalizing with the word swing here as we discussed so many ways of swinging but swing is precisely in time. Even the drags are precisely maintained for short periods at a fixed interval from the beat. In other words, swing doesn't meander to random parts of the beat.

Rubato, on the other hand is truly free form and doesn't follow strict positioning rules as swing does. Usually there are no accents. True rubato is rob time and give time back so it is still in tempo.

Swing gives a feel of falling to the next beat. So it is clearly a recognizable "feel", regardless of our attempts here to conceptualize it in words. I know you can recognize swing from rubato so this is just academic. But it's good to discuss.
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#1011303 - 04/03/08 06:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thank you Jazzwee.

I play along with you every day with your AL combo. You play a nice relaxed melody. I would describe that as "dragging to swing" as opposed to "rubato" playing? Am I correct?
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011304 - 04/03/08 08:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
westarm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 63
Loc: Indiana, USA
Barb.....when you say you "play along with you every day with your AL combo", what do you mean and how do you do it?

thanks.

david
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#1011305 - 04/03/08 08:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb, that's correct. When I talk about Rubato it almost entirely in a ballad setting.

It's funny we've assigned these academic terms to this. And probably this is the consequence of not being able to just show it in person. I suppose that's the limitations of internet discussions of things like swing.

Westarm, on page 1, there's a link to a backing track to AL (MP3) file that you can play along with and it includes a melody.
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#1011306 - 04/04/08 07:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi Westarm (David),

Both the mp3 and midi version of Jazzwee and his combo is found on page 22. The midi version is a few posts after the mp3 version.

I started off playing along with the midi version because I needed to slow it down once I got the left hand going.

I practice along with Jazzwee as a warm up before doing any other AL stuff. It gets me in the jazzy mood. I have to make myself stop - it is such fun. \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011307 - 04/04/08 05:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
senderoaa Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 13
great post, guys and gals!

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#1011308 - 04/04/08 05:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
senderoaa Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 13
great post, guys and gals!

I was wondering if there is a way to print all the 48 pages in one document....any ideas?
thanks

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#1011309 - 04/04/08 06:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
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