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#1282396 - 10/07/09 11:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Green Dolphin Street is beautiful TLT. I noticed you only play the A-Section of the tune. Is that what's in the book?
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#1282399 - 10/07/09 12:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Green Dolphin Street is beautiful TLT. I noticed you only play the A-Section of the tune. Is that what's in the book?


Yes. I just noticed. That's part I. Part II is in volume 2.

Dang! frown
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#1282414 - 10/07/09 12:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
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This reminds me of the great chapter 'Marinade your ears' from 'Metaphors for the musician'.

Randy recommends an excellent way to train your ear. This is a method you can apply on any new tune, and really, should apply on any new tune. It's heavily based on singing, and one of the difficult part is actually singing the 3rd. This is not easy at all. Once you can do it, you'll be more comfortable playing 3rds and 7ths.

If you're not familiar with the method, I'm happy to try and describe.

Also, ATTYA is not the easiest tune out there. It's often considered an advanced, or difficult tune. The frequent modulation make it difficult. It's a good base for a lot of exercises, but maybe not the easiest tune to start and solo on.
There are other simpler tunes, like Just Friends, Here's that Rainy Day, Getting Sentimental, All of Me, etc...

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#1282427 - 10/07/09 12:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
knotty Online   content
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another good thing to do, whatever tune you're working on, is to break into small chunks. Pick the 1st 4 bars of ATTYA, then study this slowly. Until it feels good. Then do the next 4 bars.
Then put them together.
It's a lot for the brain to practice on a lot of chords / changes at once. But if you break it apart, it becomes much simpler. It's a good way to practice just about anything for that matter.

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#1282466 - 10/07/09 01:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Originally Posted By: knotty


If you're not familiar with the method, I'm happy to try and describe.




Go on then. I'm all ears. smile
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#1282512 - 10/07/09 02:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
TLT, do you see (hear) what happens with that 3rd exercise? Without even trying to solo, you CANNOT make it not sound good. So you see why this is always central to a solo to always be aware of the third.

Now in real playing, the third need not occur at any particular beat. But it does get used quite often. This is VERY HONEST playing smile But try to be conscious (at least during this ear training period) of how to integrate the 3rd into the melody. Most melodies are heavy on 3rds.

I know this sounds almost mathematical and someone will say that this is too structured. But it is a fact. And it is true in Classical music or any other music. Our ear is drawn to this structure.

When playing around with the third as central to the structure, try arpeggiating TO THE THIRD, and STEPPING TO THE THIRD (half step or step). Just hear this in your head and know how to get there.

Again I emphasize that I was taught these rules as I teach you. BUT once you know the rules, later on you will know how to break them. This is just ear training. By no means does this dictate what you should play later on. Although, I guarantee that any good solo will have a bunch of thirds in it.

Dave is right that approach notes + 3rds is very common in bebop.



Thanks for your comments, jazzwee.

Just listened to the recording again, and - yes! smile

So I suppose the next step is to do this, but not slavishly so, and integrate in other chord notes and rhythms? Still just sitck to rests, crotchets and minims, no quavers apart from the pickup one. Certainly no runs of quavers.

Any other ideas, let me know.

I am familiar with the idea of learning the rule first, then learning how and when to break it. So, I don't get too hung up on rules, but for now rules are useful to limit my choices to a manageable level.
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#1282626 - 10/07/09 07:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: knotty


If you're not familiar with the method, I'm happy to try and describe.




Go on then. I'm all ears. smile


Well first off, I want to say I think the book is really packed with great stuff. Everyone seems to have his / her favorite chapter. Many are great. The harmonic analysis chapter is great, the blues and pentatonic chapters are great also.
My favorite is probably the ear training chapter. It is truly packed. I think he could have gone on and on on that topic, but it's actually a short chapter.

In that chapter, Randy teaches you an approach to learning tunes. It's based on singing. Sing sing sing.
1) Sing in pitch. You don't have to be a great singer, you don't need to have a good range, you're just singing for you. But sing in pitch.
2) Sing the melody
3) Sing the root of the chords
4) Sing the inner lines, tenor and alto.
By the time your here, you have learned all the parts so you can sing melody + backup. This is a pretty cool skill to learn, and you are going to learn how to sing and recognize root, 3rds and 7ths with this.
5) Sing arpeggios
6) Sing Modes. You know, basically the scales.
7) Sing a sample bass line. This will teach you a lot about music theory
8) Compose a solo and sing it (that's my personal favorite). This alone will remove many fears you may have about tackling improvisation on a tune.
9) Sing 3rd
10) Sing 7ths
9 & 10 are similar to 4, but more difficult. You are no longer singing a part, but really just the 3rd or 7th. It jumps, so this is painful.

He uses "Everything I Love" as an example. Pick a tune and try it.
I mean if you want to...

Randy makes a point about NOT singing while you play. He does not believe in it.
I sing while I play. Almost always. It doesn't bother me, I enjoy it.
A LOT of people sing while they play.
To me, it's part of the fun. See Oscar Peterson or Lionel Hampton do it, tell me they're not having fun.

Anyway, while Randy advises against singing while playing, he is obviously pro singing as a mean to train the ear. I think that's key.

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#1283433 - 10/09/09 01:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Randy's book is more practical. I actually used his terminology when I refer to 2+3 or 3+2 two handed chords. I didn't learn it from his book but when I saw it, I realized that I didn't understand what was important. The book is a more practical beginning (to intermediate) jazz book. I recommend it before getting into Levine.
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#1283470 - 10/09/09 04:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
At school I sang alto, however, I've not done any kind of singing for a long while. It is certainly good ear training. Like most things, you use it or you lose it. So I used to be able to pick up the alto part of a Christmas carol very easily - now it takes me about 5 verses. But if i try to sing, I can tell it's not good, and ultimately, my ear wins because I don't like doing things that aren't 'good'. My vocal range is pretty limited now. frown

Interesting you should say that about Metaphors. I'm toying with buying a book soon - was going to get Levine. The teacher I went to showed it to me and it looked good. Also, I'm getting on well with the Levine theory book. It's difficult to make a choice when you can't browse through it.
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#1283521 - 10/09/09 07:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Online   content
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http://www.shermusic.com/metaphors.htm
you csn view sample pages.

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#1283555 - 10/09/09 08:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
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Loc: Scotland
That's really handy, I just printed them off. smile
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#1283654 - 10/09/09 10:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Couple of things I recorded today. This is The Lost Valley by Tim Richards:

http://www.box.net/shared/9iu6k00kq8

No great shakes in the improvising at the end - and, no, I'm not claiming that's 'honest'! The reason I looked at this one now is because it has slash chords in it like F/G which I now realise (having been gemming up on this) is a Fsus4.

I think I'm even beginning to get what the 'sus' is for. Mebbe.

Also, I've just started looking at this. It's Song for my Father (Silver arr Richards) also from Exploring Jazz Piano I. I've never played a bossa nova before and I wanted to check in here before I practice it loads the wrong way!

http://www.box.net/shared/adc538iifm

Specifically, where there is a run of quavers I wasn't sure whether to do legato or detached. In my recording, everything is quite distinctly tongued, so I went for detached. The semiquavers of course are legato.

Over the page, Richards has Horace Silver's solo, so I'll look at that next. smile
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#1283831 - 10/09/09 02:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Online   content
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I'm pretty sure you meant Gsus.

And thanks, now I have Sergent Pepper in my head !! wink

One way to play a sus on AL.
You play C-7, then F7sus
Then resolve it so F7 and continue as usual.

I liked you Song For my Father. Do you have the original? What a gorgeous tune.

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#1283900 - 10/09/09 03:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty
I'm pretty sure you meant Gsus.


Ah yes, a senior moment. I don't half get confused sometimes.

Quote:
And thanks, now I have Sergent Pepper in my head !! wink


Sgt Pepper? Gsus for me spells a hard day's night. And you know how hard I've been working.

Quote:
One way to play a sus on AL.
You play C-7, then F7sus
Then resolve it so F7 and continue as usual.


You in Bb? I'm in G. I'm taking it that's an Amin7 I start with? As in ii7-V.

Quote:
I liked you Song For my Father. Do you have the original? What a gorgeous tune.


It's fantastic! I've been working on the solo. It's a scheme I've worked out: look in the book, see what's in it. Download everything off amazon (costs very little), stick it on my mp3 and listen to it for a week. Then play. smile

Lost Valley isn't available from amazon, unfortunately. I'd like to hear it. It's by Richards, for his group, Spirit Level. Their CDs are apparently too obscure to make it to amazon.
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#1283935 - 10/09/09 05:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Online   content
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Never mind the AL example, it's a #11 I play. Scratch that.

Sgt Pepper was in reference to your signature ...

Cheers wink

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#1283946 - 10/09/09 05:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
dave solazzo Offline
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tlt,

that tune, the lost valley, is a gorgeous piece! beautiful harmony!

nicely played! and nice improv at the end.
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#1283951 - 10/09/09 05:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Offline
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TLT, I don't know that Lost Valley but WOW, that's some pretty tune and you do play it beautifully. Rhythmic feel is great!

On your improv portion, just watch your time there. It was getting a little messy...and add accents.
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#1283953 - 10/09/09 05:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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TLT, Beautiful head of Song for my Father! Very well done.
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#1284311 - 10/10/09 12:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
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Loc: Scotland
Knotty - I'll take that as a request for Sgt Pepper. Ah, now I understand! In the album it runs into 'I'll get by...' But I'd always seen them as separate songs. Doesn't matter, it can be Sgt Pepper for now. smile

Many thanks for your kind words, Knotty, Dave and jazzwee. Lost valley does have a bit more of a 'grown up feel' than many things I have tried. Rhythmically, when it suddenly lauches into 6/8, I had to work at that bit.

Talking of rhythmic challenges, Song for my Father's got a few in the 3rd chorus of the solo...
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#1284316 - 10/10/09 12:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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I love Song for My Father TLT. It's easy to solo over (at least for me). Here, because it is Latin, you play the eighth notes straight. It's not swung. It's a beautiful tune and of course Horace Silver's version is the Gold Standard on this.

Rhythmically, I always had a problem retaining the form when playing the head on this one. All those triplets used to confuse me. Then my teacher said, "ignore the triplets" and suddenly the melody was simplified.

I'm amazed you picked this up immediately. It's good you played it slowly.
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#1284320 - 10/10/09 12:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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TLT, who composed "Lost Valley"? Is it one of these million standards I don't know? I didn't find it in my Real Book.
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#1284402 - 10/10/09 03:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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It's by Tim Richards. It's on this album apparently:

http://www.timrichards.ndo.co.uk/spiritlevel.html

I confess I'm tempted to buy.

I've been working some more on the transcribed Horace Silver solo. If I can pull this off (and I'm not sure I can), then you take back every negative word about this book. Is it a deal, jazzwee? wink
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#1284407 - 10/10/09 03:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Riddler Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
TLT, who composed "Lost Valley"? Is it one of these million standards I don't know? I didn't find it in my Real Book.


It's on Rhapsody. I think this link expires after a while, but for now you ought to be able to point and click a bit and hear it here:

http://rhaplinks.real.com/rhaplink?rhapid=6340361&type=playlist&title=Playlist&from=real


Tim Richards wrote it.

Ed
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#1284448 - 10/10/09 04:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Riddler]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Only available in the US, unfortunately.
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#1284598 - 10/10/09 11:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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TLT, it's not that I have anything negative about a book like Tim Richards. Obviously it has nice arrangements of tunes. But you and I know that Jazz is about improvising. So, I personally avoid playing written jazz music. I might copy it stylistically as an exercise but I could do that with any record.

So to me the only book necessary (that shows actual music and not theory lessons), is a Fake Book. The rest, I spend time just listening.

As an example, Green Dolphin Street is a basic standard that beginning jazz students study. It was one of the first tunes I learned. But it's not that easy to solo on.

If I flopped the lead sheet in front of you, would you be able to play based on what you learned from Tim Richards' book? Could you play it two handed and then shift to comping one handed? Could you comp it with just two handed chords if someone is singing the vocals? Could you solo on it?

I haven't seen this book, mind you so maybe it's more complete than I might think. So you can always prove me wrong here.

But hopefully, you can see the difference in what you learn from a teacher. I'm hoping that you will learn to bring this skills out from inside you.

BTW - I saw the Lost Valley tune on Itunes by Tim Richards right after I posted. So I figured it was an original of his.
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#1284804 - 10/11/09 11:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

If I flopped the lead sheet in front of you, would you be able to play based on what you learned from Tim Richards' book? Could you play it two handed and then shift to comping one handed? Could you comp it with just two handed chords if someone is singing the vocals? Could you solo on it?


Good point. I've been mulling this one over today - where I want to take jazz and what I want to get out of it. I think the chances of me gigging with a fakebook are about nil.

Certainly I do much better with an arrangement, but I suppose that's to be expected given my previous training. And I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily to read from sheet music - I'm more concerned with the musical output, but I can see it makes me less versatile as a musician.

Maybe I should just start harmonising as I used to. Simply, not jazz.
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#1284819 - 10/11/09 11:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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But it's not in the gigging TLT. What are my own chances of gigging at some restaurant?

I never said you should stop playing written arrangements. You are correct that it gives you musical output now.

I'm just telling you though that the feeling of being able to play anything at any time without anything to look at is such a rush. You're creating your own music then. At some point, who even needs a fakebook?

And I've watched you progress so I know you're capable of this.

It's probably the reliance on written music that holds you back. It's fine to do both. One being a technical training. If you want to make significant progress, I would spend 80% of the time on improvising.
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#1284946 - 10/11/09 03:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
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I think playing from sheet is an important part of ear training.
If you can read music, then I think it's totally fine to pick up an arrangement and play it.
Pick up a Garland arrangement, and I am sure you will absorb the language much faster. Same for bebop, pick up the Omnibook and you will absorb Parker blues much faster.

I think you need a balance of this, strict technique, transcriptions and improvisation.

If you only play from sheet, that's all you'll know how to do. Certainly, there is more to music than playing someone else's.

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#1284949 - 10/11/09 03:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Always good to get different opinions.

For me, I was always so great at memorizing, so dreadful at sight-reading, it feels really strange to be on the 'I love sheet music' side of the street.

I've just been improvising. Honestly. smile I mean, honestly, honestly.

I don't know about 80%, but I've been doing an awful lot of scales lately. LH's beginning to keep up now.
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#1285648 - 10/12/09 06:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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I almost forgot about this thread.

When I was just starting out, and I was given these rules on how to improvise (just like I'm telling you), I felt like I was creating no product. Everything sounded bad. But by repetitively doing the routine of 3rds, etc., the ears pick it up. Then something will just change. But like anything else, it doesn't happen fast. In piano, it comes in waves as you know. So you just keep plugging along and training for it and it just comes.

When I say improvising, there's many parts. Changing voicings, changing rhythms. It's not just notes. But you just try out something different every day.

I don't know if improvising is something that can only be done by some people or not. When I started I was able to improvise. Badly maybe but I was able to create melodies. Is this a requirement? I don't know.

Maybe we can ask Knotty and Riddler who both can seem to come up with melodies.

Can you invent a melody? (forgetting the chord progression for a moment).

It would be sad if it cannot be learned, especially by otherwise musical people. I'm of the feeling that it can be learned. People who do licks do it quite mechanically actually. All I do here is explain it more intellectually so it can be duplicated in any key.
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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Happy Easter!
by Marko in Boston
50 minutes 1 second ago
Easter Themed Recordings - Kawai CA95
by wolferblade
Today at 04:55 AM
First recordings - Some music for Easter
by wolferblade
Today at 01:01 AM
Recorded a song on my workstation tonight
by Arizona Sage
Today at 12:04 AM
How to tune a piano.....
by Grandpianoman
Yesterday at 11:46 PM
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