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Is there a particular symbol for the middle (sostenuto) pedal?
Apparently only very few composers, like Debussy and Ravel, make use of it. And many pianos don't have it at all.
Is the indication just "sostenuto"?

Thanks,
CA

No, the 'sign' is just sost.

Many composers don't use it because most (if not all) upright pianos do not have a sostenuto pedal, so it's restrictive to the kind of piano you can (properly) perform the piece.

Thanks, Nikolas. I actually have a digital piano, but it has all three pedals, so I was curious...

CA

I think many composers don't mark use of sostenuto pedal because they indicate little or no pedalling of any kind. I don't think this means they didn't intend for a pianist to use this pedal. I don't think Debussy marks any pedal in his scores, for example.

I don't think it's the fact that some verticals don't have this pedal that is relevant. Grainger, who gives detailed pedalling in his works, marks extensive uses of the sostenuto pedal.

Keep in mind, too, that the sostenuto pedal, available on American pianos by the end of the 19th century, wasn't available on European pianos of the time. Previous discussions on this forum have revealed the Debussy's piano did not have a sostenuto pedal, so those who insist that Debussy used it are basing that statement on false information.

Regards,

While I'm a pianist, I don't notate pedal (sustain) unless it's a very precise point I want to make sure they use it. Otherwise I'm assuming the pianists will do what they know best.

With the sostenuto pedalling, the effect is quite different and very precise to leave in chance. While it might be innuendoed (sp?) with held notes and what not, it's not accustomed to be left to the descretion (sp? again...) of the pianist.

In addition to that, classical repertoire has been vomitted all over by incredibly ugly editions (new ones) with dreadful misinformation added (including ludicrous fingering). (For the record, I was teaching on a couple of young ladies and they were playing the first (and 2nd) Bach and some things were just SO impossible, that I proposed to buy them the 2 voice inventions myself (got the urtext editions), so I can just make my own notes.

Bruce: Had no idea about that in regards to Debussy. Interesting!

I believe that information to be accurate as it was confirmed to me in email exchanges with Paul Roberts, author of Images, The Piano Music of Claude Debussy and a well-known interpreter of the music of Debussy.

That said, there are instances in the music of Debussy, Ravel and other composers where the use of the sostenuto pedal is most helpful.

Regards,

That is good to know. However, I do think that particular pedal can actually help play Debussy. I'm thinking in particular the Cathedrale Engloutie where one must sustain the lowest C over several bars while having chords changes. The way modern pianos are so resonant with the damper pedal, I cannot imagine not pedaling each of these chords. Perhaps on the older instruments of Debussy's time the damper and sustaining ability were not as great, so he could have held down the pedal for the entire section without a problem.

Yes, I agree completely. One may well suppose that had the pianos of Debussy's day had a sostenuto he may well have used it. Whether he would have notated or not is another question, since Debussy rarely indicates any pedal use at all. Instead of using damper pedal signs, he occasionally will write: "quittez, en laissant vibrer" (lift the hands off the keys but let the sound continue).

Regards,

Also remember that the "middle pedal" is not a sustenuto pedal in all pianos. In most grands, the sustenuto pedal holds the last note or notes captured by the pedal. In my old Baldwin Acrosonic, the middle pedal was just an ordinary damper pedal for the lower half of the piano.

I've seen the notation "TSP" in a couple of old editions of works like Liszt or Busoni transcriptions of Bach organ works. These were pretty clearly added by the editor, but they generally connote classic "pedal tone" situations.

I think the Banowetz book on pedaling says that the middle pedal on uprights is never a sostenuto (maybe the upright action doesn't allow it?). And that although the sostenuto pedal can found on some European grands, it has never been standard; it is standard only on American grands.

The Wikipedia article on piano pedals says that Debussy and Ravel specified it, but that is referenced in a book that I haven't read, and don't know if it is reliable. I can't remember any explicit use of it in Debussy or Ravel myself, so I wonder which music of theirs the author thinks uses it.

I don't recall reading that from Banowetz, but that was always my understanding too—until this thread last summer in the Piano Forum:

Necessity of a sostenuto pedal?

I was genuinely surprised that a middle pedal with true sostenuto function is a feature on a number of upright brands (albeit generally top-tier ones).

Steven

Expensive high end verticals from Steinway, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, etc. have (or are available with) sostenuto mechanisms, but the vast majority of verticals substitute a "practice pedal".

A sostenuto is pretty standard on European grands nowadays since they want to be able to sell in the U.S. market.

I totally agree with Morodiene too...
It does help in some instances, particularly if you have small hands.
My middle pedal is really a sostenuto pedal by the way.
Interesting information about Debussy, Bruce, thanks.

CA

What would the T stand for?

"The"?

I found what I was trying to remember in Banowetz, thanks to Google Books. In his initial discussion of the sostenuto pedal, he says: "To this day, in most cases, this pedal is standard equipment only on instruments built in the United States; and in all countries upright pianos rarely have a true sostenuto pedal mechanism." So I misremembered it a bit, but it seems from the other comments that the situation has changed since he wrote the book, too.

Tenacious?

I think what Joseph Banowetz was saying is that you can't count on the Sostenuto pedal being there - especially if you regularly perform in Europe - especially if you are off the beaten track. Modern grands all have a sostenuto pedal, but not all concert venues have modern grands, so you can't completely count on them.

On the issue of Debussy, while he didn't have access to one; I quite agree he would have taken advantage of one. There are plenty of opportunities throughout the entire Debussy works where it comes in handy. I had the fortune of studying with Paul Roberts at Castelfranc this past summer and he certainly uses the sost pedal when playing Debussy - and we discussed a number of places throughout the Bk I Preludes where I was using it.

Joe Banowetz also would recommend taking advantage of it - despite is skepticism of its availability. I studied at a summer workshop in Bulgaria from 2006-08 were Joe was one of the teachers. While I didn't study directly with him I did have lengthy discussions with him about practising and pedalling. Like is book, he is a fountain of information when it comes to advanced pedalling technique.