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#1294779 - 10/27/09 12:32 PM How would you phrase this?
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
I have been teaching a boy who is in 6th grade for less than a year now. He didn't take summer lessons, but he's very motivated and works hard. He picks up things very quickly and is always enthusiastic about piano. Just this semester, his older brother who is in high school just began with me. He is blind in one eye and the other eye can only read when the page is right up against his face, and so after discussing this with his parents, I decided to try out a learning by ear approach. This is new to me, and like all my new students, he enrolled in an 8-lesson trial period. That 8th lesson is coming up in a couple of weeks.

Here are the things I've tried:
-recording his lessons
-teaching him pieces by first playing the different sections, talking about the form of the piece, and then playing everything together.

I have not had much success with this approach. These are simple pieces taken from PA Accelerated for the older beginner books. He would come to lessons not remembering how the piece went when I asked him to play it. Last week, I tried recording each piece he was to work on individually so he could just listen to them and get the sound in his ears, first a slow version then up to tempo.

We'll see how this worked, but I'm not confident that this will work. I'm considering referring him to a Suzuki teacher, even though the approach is mainly for young children, I think that learning by ear from someone who is experienced in teaching this way would work best for him in the long run. However, I don't want to lose the brother.

Right now, due to scheduling conflicts on their end, they do come at separate times, so if the older one went to the local conservatory to study Suzuki there that wouldn't really be more or less running around for them, so I'm hoping that this will work out OK.

How would you phrase this to the parents? I honestly am feeling that I am not the best teacher for the brother, but I want to make it clear that I do enjoy working with the younger sibling.
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#1294789 - 10/27/09 12:48 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
kevinb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 339
Sorry if this is a daft question but: can he see well enough to read the music if you photocopied it really big? Or just wrote the note letters out in some way? But even if something like that worked, I don't see it going far beyond the `three blind mice' stage smirk

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#1294799 - 10/27/09 01:06 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: kevinb]
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
I tried large photocopies of words (since he cannot read any music) and he had a 50/50 chances of correctness when seated the distance he needs to sit back from the piano. I think it would have to be ridiculously large, like one measure per page to make it readable.

I also tried doing colors, like if I took a marker and colored each note a different color, yellow representing C or something like that. All darker colors looked black to him and of the remaining light colors, he got 50% correct.

I don't know how to read braille music, and I've heard it is difficult to learn. So, that is why I thought learning by ear.
_________________________
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#1294839 - 10/27/09 02:08 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
Monica K. Offline
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Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 13769
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I would simply tell the parents that, due to the boy's vision problems, the most effective method of piano instruction would be playing by ear. And because that is not one of your specialties, you think their son would be better served taking lessons with a teacher who is trained in teaching that way. You can always add that the other son is making great progress etc. so you don't see a need for a transition in teacher for him.
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#1294874 - 10/27/09 02:46 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Monica K.]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
If you recommend that they look for a Suzuki teacher for their elder son, you might lose the younger one to the Suzuki teacher because of the convenience for the parents. Not all blind people can be a good pianist although they are likely to have a more sensitive hearing.

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#1294876 - 10/27/09 02:49 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: MA]
AZNpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 1686
Loc: Orange County, CA
I pondered about the same problem before: I'd like to keep one sibling and move the other one on to someone else. I decided to bite the bullet and keep both, lest when you get rid of one, you lose both.
_________________________
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Private Piano Teacher
Member, Music Teachers' Association of California (MTAC)

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#1294885 - 10/27/09 02:53 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: AZNpiano]
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
I pondered about the same problem before: I'd like to keep one sibling and move the other one on to someone else. I decided to bite the bullet and keep both, lest when you get rid of one, you lose both.

yes, that is possible, but I honestly don't think I am the best teacher for the older son, and I'd be doing him a disservice if I continued. I guess I'd like to keep the younger one, and it would probably be in his best interest to stay with a teacher who is working out, but he is an easy kid to get along with, and so I think if he went elsewhere he'd probably have success with them too. Hopefully it won't come to that!
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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#1294902 - 10/27/09 03:29 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4295
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Morodiene,

Can you consider keeping the older boy until the end of December?

Maybe a transition to another teacher that you have found and recommended - paving the way - would be better for all. The parents would see that you had given it significant thought and found a teacher more likely to have the successful outcome that you want him to have.

It would also give you the opportunity (if the family enjoys Christmas music) to use some of the more familiar songs of the season - the scale melodies - of Deck the Hall, Joy to the World, First Noel always seem easy from my student's points of view, even if they are new to music. There are also very simple ones like Jingle Bells (chorus) and Jolly Old Saint Nick.

There are many pops (Rudolph, Frosty, Here Comes Santa Claus)written in the 5 finger positions with teacher duets, and just maybe this might be something he can do by ear, especially having heard the rhythms before, and by graphic stable keyboard positions. He can leave you with some musical accomplishments that he has enjoyed and that he can actually play for the family this season.

I do a 10 week getting acquainted program if the family wants that option instead of year round study, but it seems abrupt to me for this student to end at 8 weeks of lessons, because of his visual perception and his age.

Have you thought about the fact that he might feel really depressed at leaving his first musical experience with little to show for it. I don't think "tunes" in method books appeal to all that many people, and not having visual acuity really compromises these unknown melodies with cute little lyrics that make them more palatable for the learner.

Maybe the keyboard graphics will help and he can rely on LH/RH - thumbs are finger 1, etc. He would be well oriented to the piano keyboard and the task would be to be repetitive enough in the sequencing of finger numbers so that he would begin to have recall along with his ear knowing which direction the music would be moving.

Bringing up his intrinsic abilities would be better for him at this point, I believe he could do this in the few weeks remaining to the end of the year.

A transfer to a teacher with experience in blind students would then feel simply like the beginning of a new year to everyone.

You could certainly state to the mother and father that you wanted to see the older son placed where he can fit best, and that you enjoy his brother and want to keep him thriving in your studio. Saying like "everybody wins!" is a good idea.

Betty

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#1294906 - 10/27/09 03:37 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
kevinb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 339
People sometimes overcome tremendous disabilities to achieve their ambitions. I'm sure it's possible, in principle, for a person who is this deficient in eyesight to play the piano from music -- if he really, really wants to badly enough. Maybe he would have to memorize a piece a couple of notes at a time, holding a huge photocopy up to his face between playing them. Or something.

But it seems to me that you have to want to play desperately to go to lengths like this. I would guess that a child with average levels of motiviation is not going to make much progress with this sort of approach, however much hard work the teacher does frown

There are businesses that specialize in producing music training materials for blind people, sometimes entirely by ear. But I've no idea how effective they are, or how much effort would be required of a teacher to learn how to apply them (lots, I imagine).

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#1294918 - 10/27/09 04:02 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
Morodiene,

Can you consider keeping the older boy until the end of December?

Maybe a transition to another teacher that you have found and recommended - paving the way - would be better for all. The parents would see that you had given it significant thought and found a teacher more likely to have the successful outcome that you want him to have.

It would also give you the opportunity (if the family enjoys Christmas music) to use some of the more familiar songs of the season - the scale melodies - of Deck the Hall, Joy to the World, First Noel always seem easy from my student's points of view, even if they are new to music. There are also very simple ones like Jingle Bells (chorus) and Jolly Old Saint Nick.

There are many pops (Rudolph, Frosty, Here Comes Santa Claus)written in the 5 finger positions with teacher duets, and just maybe this might be something he can do by ear, especially having heard the rhythms before, and by graphic stable keyboard positions. He can leave you with some musical accomplishments that he has enjoyed and that he can actually play for the family this season.

These are some good ideas. I had thought of trying some different music, but his brother had taught him some of the pieces he learned from his method book, so the ability to learn this way is there. I can't be with him to play it for him every day and show it to him every day, however. We are at the very beginning of learning piano, and I just want him to get really acquainted with finger numbers and hand positions and finding the notes. I can't imagine doing anything more complicated than now, but perhaps picking tunes he may already know will be helpful.

Quote:
I do a 10 week getting acquainted program if the family wants that option instead of year round study, but it seems abrupt to me for this student to end at 8 weeks of lessons, because of his visual perception and his age.

I've always done an 8 lesson trial and it's always worked out very well. I'd rather not ask for more money from this student's family if I'm not the right teacher for him. They were hesitant to try to have him take piano to begin with, and I let them know that this was a new experience for me as well.


Quote:
Have you thought about the fact that he might feel really depressed at leaving his first musical experience with little to show for it. I don't think "tunes" in method books appeal to all that many people, and not having visual acuity really compromises these unknown melodies with cute little lyrics that make them more palatable for the learner.
Of course I have thought that! And I feel the same way, as if I'm the failure for not getting through to him.

As for the music, I don't tell him the lyrics at all, and like I said these are just basic melodies for him to get acquainted with the piano. I had planned on veering from this as he got a bit more comfortable at the piano, but that has not happened.

Part of the problem is that I don't think he is highly motivated, and I suspect he rarely practices what I tell him to. I have talked to him about this, but who knows if it sinks in.

Quote:
Maybe the keyboard graphics will help and he can rely on LH/RH - thumbs are finger 1, etc. He would be well oriented to the piano keyboard and the task would be to be repetitive enough in the sequencing of finger numbers so that he would begin to have recall along with his ear knowing which direction the music would be moving.

Bringing up his intrinsic abilities would be better for him at this point, I believe he could do this in the few weeks remaining to the end of the year.


This is actually what I have been doing. These pieces are very much just getting used to finger numbers, hand positions, etc. I'll try some music he already knows in hopes he will actually want to practice that. At least that will get us through the last few lessons and hopefully set him up for a positive transfer.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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#1294953 - 10/27/09 04:46 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
TimR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 1033
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

yes, that is possible, but I honestly don't think I am the best teacher for the older son,


Yet.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#1294959 - 10/27/09 04:55 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: TimR]
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

yes, that is possible, but I honestly don't think I am the best teacher for the older son,


Yet.

Yet what? I'm not sure what you're getting at.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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#1295009 - 10/27/09 06:21 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4295
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Morodiene,

Yet, may be relevant.

I just thought about your singing which is so natural to you?

Can you sing songs he might know or like first and then apply it to the keyboard.

We can do tetrachord fingers for octaves 5-4-3-2-2-3-4-5 without the thumbs for learning scale - this might simply finding key signatures like C-G-F.

And, he just might tactilely be able to learn Gb and Db from the feel being that they start on black keys and use all of the black keys with only 2 fingers being on a white note. You would probably want his to be able to do 5 Finger Major Parallel Positions of any of these 5 first, and then to either use the tetrachord finding of the scale, and later to teach the Db, Gb by using the rules for black note fingerins.

2 3 2 3 4 RH
Db Eb Gb Ab Bb
3 2 4 3 2 LH

He could actually get around the keyboard pretty well if he were able to do this much.

Depending on what key he learns to play in, melodies with simple harmonies could be transposed.

So the question would be, is he teachable through singing.

Also, coming to mind, if he has any desire to "rhyme", writing lyrics and song titles might set into being some melodies he would write lyrics to and compose a short song.

The challenge is being without vision: How would I need to have music concepts introduced to me? What would I understand? What could I be taught by feel, touch, rote and ear?

Also, coming to mind, I would want to have any other limitation that he has brought out into the open so I could understand what else needs to be under consideration. I think it's very hard to make progress with certain undisclosed disorders that kids are being treated for either at school with special education, or in the medical field. Some medications are going to change things sometimes resulting in other symptoms besides the disorder.

I'm just treating this as a "what if" situation and I don't mean to imply that you "should" or "if you had" or anything like that.

I do feel that everyone is entitled to give music making a try even when the expectation would be quite limited. Music is one of the magic things we have available to use. If we can't make it ourselves, we can experience it by hearing it, moving to it, and finding the messages through the sounds and the rhythms.

It would be interesting to hear when this is a few more weeks along what you decided and how it turned out for everybody.

Betty


Edited by Betty Patnude (10/27/09 06:22 PM)

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#1295364 - 10/28/09 10:52 AM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
Gyro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 3704
I believe your approach is not
right, that is, trying to teach
him by ear. You're apparently
not used to teaching this way,
and are not comfortable with
it. You're teaching him like
there's something wrong with
him--there is, but this is
rubbing it in. You may not
want to teach him because of
his handicap, but as a teacher
you should be willing to take
such a student.

There is a piano performance
major on the forums who
is completely blind, and he
manages. So this student
should not be much of a problem.
Teach him like you do
all your students. The
only difference is that you put
the book closer.

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#1295369 - 10/28/09 11:09 AM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
R0B Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 282
Loc: Australia (Ex- Wales, UK)
Wouldn't it be great if you could interest him in taking singing lessons with you, instead of piano?

That way, he would not feel in competition with his younger brother, but more importantly, have an instrument that is all his own.

Hopefully, they could complement each other, and work together on some pieces.
_________________________
www.learn2playmusic.com


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#1295372 - 10/28/09 11:11 AM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Gyro]
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
Originally Posted By: Gyro
I believe your approach is not
right, that is, trying to teach
him by ear. You're apparently
not used to teaching this way,
and are not comfortable with
it. You're teaching him like
there's something wrong with
him--there is, but this is
rubbing it in. You may not
want to teach him because of
his handicap, but as a teacher
you should be willing to take
such a student.

There is a piano performance
major on the forums who
is completely blind, and he
manages. So this student
should not be much of a problem.
Teach him like you do
all your students. The
only difference is that you put
the book closer.



And how does the student put the book closer when it has to be touching his nose to read it? He will have terrible posture and technique if he has to sit close and lean over the keys. By the way, I'm not totally forgoing reading. I will talk about notes and draw them very large on a wipe board. However, I don't think it's helpful for him to try and read at an angle that would make playing almost impossible.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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#1295387 - 10/28/09 11:32 AM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: kevinb]
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
[quote=kevinb Maybe he would have to memorize a piece a couple of notes at a time, holding a huge photocopy up to his face between playing them.
[/quote]
This might also work in combination with the recordings. Maybe if I have him get the books, he can at least refer to it when he's stuck doing it by ear, set the book back on the stand, and continue in that way until it's solid in his playing. I'll give this a try.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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#1299152 - 11/03/09 08:59 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
Just an update:

I spoke with my friend who is a Suzuki teacher and she explained that Suzuki students actually spend 2-3 weeks just listening to the piece they are to learn every day, before even trying to play it. I didn't realize this, but things started to make sense. I decided to try teaching him familiar tunes, maybe a couple of Christmas songs to learn.

At his lesson today, I asked him if he listened to the recordings I had given him every day, and he said "Well..not...every day." Which translates to 2-3 times tops during the week (I did ask him to listen every day). I asked him if he could remember any of the songs to play for me, and he could not. I pointed out that he first has to know how the song goes in his mind before it can tell his fingers what to do. If his brain doesn't know the song, his fingers won't either.

Also, I found out he has a magnifier at home, and can read without it at a 16 font size, so I modified my assignment sheets so he can at least keep track of what he's supposed to do. I told him for this week to take the 3 songs I gave him and just listen to them 2-3 times per day each, but not to try and play them unless he can sing them in his head.

I taught him the C major 5-finger position, explaining what half steps and whole steps were, and where they lie within a major 5 finger pattern. I then showed him that G major looks just like C major in that it's all the white keys.

We then proceeded to sing Mary Had a Little Lamb together, and then I told him to start on finger 3. He was able to pick out the tune very easily, then we did LH. We did Jingle Bells and Ode to Joy, too. Then I had him try Mary in the G major position.

He was very successful in this and actually smiled a few times! I plan on teaching him all the major 5-finger patterns, then moving on to chords so he can learn to harmonize the songs he's learned. This might have just done the trick. Thanks everyone for the comments!
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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#1299290 - 11/04/09 07:19 AM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
lilylady Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 3303
Loc: boston north
It sounds like progress Morodiene! I like that you are teaching him relationships. He will be able to translate that into playing on his own as well.

Did you ask him what his goals are? What he wants to do? (surely you did, but I don't recall what his response is if it is above)

If he is not highly motivated, that would make lessons much more of a challenge.

Before I read your last note, I was going to ask if you had taught him a couple of basic chord triads. HT and then as arpeggios. C (then F and G). That usually makes most students get a sense of accomplishment! And gives all students (and especially him at this point) a feeling of what the whole keyboard is as well as black and white key relationships. It can be done by feel as well as by sight.

It also is a nice foundation for 'fooling around' on the piano.

I hope you keep us informed with your progress with him. ;-)

LL
_________________________
Let the people who think that life is a race get to the end ahead of you.

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#1299780 - 11/05/09 03:27 AM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: lilylady]
Wizard of Oz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 101
Find this student a good teacher who knows how to teach exclusively by ear. You can teach beginners how to play without reading music at all. Music is aural so forget the sheet music, get this student to sing the melody to the song he is learning first.

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#1299959 - 11/05/09 12:26 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
AZNpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 1686
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
At his lesson today, I asked him if he listened to the recordings I had given him every day, and he said "Well..not...every day." Which translates to 2-3 times tops during the week (I did ask him to listen every day). I asked him if he could remember any of the songs to play for me, and he could not. I pointed out that he first has to know how the song goes in his mind before it can tell his fingers what to do. If his brain doesn't know the song, his fingers won't either.


Are the parents being helpful at all? My understanding of Suzuki is that parents are essential in their kid's musical education, and you can't have the kid go at it alone.
_________________________
Middle School Choral Director
Private Piano Teacher
Member, Music Teachers' Association of California (MTAC)

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#1300030 - 11/05/09 02:20 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
Janlo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 9
Morodiene, that the boy actually smiled is a wonderful sign of progress. Perhaps more motivation will come now.

I wonder if the parents are aware of certain resources available for the blind and visually impaired through the Library of Congress. Here are two links which may be of interest:

http://www.loc.gov/nls/music/instructional/courses.html#piano

http://www.loc.gov/nls/music/index.html

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#1300033 - 11/05/09 02:29 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: Morodiene]
Janlo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 9
Morodiene, here is another link which may interest you - perhaps you could consult with this organization, the Music School of the Lighthouse [for the Blind] International:

http://www.lighthouse.org/education-serv...and-procedures/



Edited by Janlo (11/05/09 02:29 PM)

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#1300066 - 11/05/09 03:39 PM Re: How would you phrase this? [Re: AZNpiano]
Morodiene Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 4597
Loc: Wausau, WI
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
At his lesson today, I asked him if he listened to the recordings I had given him every day, and he said "Well..not...every day." Which translates to 2-3 times tops during the week (I did ask him to listen every day). I asked him if he could remember any of the songs to play for me, and he could not. I pointed out that he first has to know how the song goes in his mind before it can tell his fingers what to do. If his brain doesn't know the song, his fingers won't either.


Are the parents being helpful at all? My understanding of Suzuki is that parents are essential in their kid's musical education, and you can't have the kid go at it alone.


This "boy" is in high school, and while he is not as mature as your average high schooler (I think there may be some other deficiency there), I would like to see if he can take this on his own. He knows how to listen to the recordings on his own, and I think the responsibility will be helpful to him. If he doens't however, I will be sure to enlist his parents' involvement.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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