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#1294813 - 10/27/09 01:28 PM Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II?
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Hi!

I would like to hear some inputs about the supposed deformation of the AWA Grand PRO II action, after some use.

/Andrée

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#1295371 - 10/28/09 11:11 AM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Andree]
maserman1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 151
Loc: U.K.

Not sure what you mean by 'deformation'. If you are refering to uneven key hight and noisy/sticking keys, these problems are well documented and discussed in earlier posts.
_________________________
Bechstein C 1890, Rebuilt
Bechstein V 1888, Project

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#1295528 - 10/28/09 03:42 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: maserman1]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Hi!

With deformation I mean the metal piece on the hammer which rests on the end of the key.

/Andrée

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#1295839 - 10/29/09 04:47 AM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Andree]
maserman1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 151
Loc: U.K.

Ah - the capstans!

I've never heard of any fault with the capstans themselves. the only problem connected with them is grease contamination from the hammer fulcrum, which causes noise/wear of the key slips.
_________________________
Bechstein C 1890, Rebuilt
Bechstein V 1888, Project

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#1296111 - 10/29/09 03:13 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: maserman1]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Okey, perhaps I misunderstood the problem. However, who is interested to buy a piano with this type of issue?

/Andrée

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#1296148 - 10/29/09 04:16 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Andree]
AlphaTerminus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
Yeah I was going to get a Kawaii CE200 (same action as MP8II) as a DP for the bedroom. This post, as well as some other online reviews, have convinced me to not do this. Does anyone have a counterpoint? That DP seems like a good value. But I bang the heck out of my DP and don't want something that craps out after a year or two.
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6

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#1296167 - 10/29/09 04:36 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: AlphaTerminus]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: AlphaTerminus
Yeah I was going to get a Kawaii CE200 (same action as MP8II) as a DP for the bedroom. This post, as well as some other online reviews, have convinced me to not do this. Does anyone have a counterpoint? That DP seems like a good value. But I bang the heck out of my DP and don't want something that craps out after a year or two.


Hi!

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean with counterpoint?

/Andrée

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#1296223 - 10/29/09 06:12 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Andree]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9368
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
AlphaTerminus,

Quote:
Does anyone have a counterpoint?


The CE200 is a very good digital piano for the price. Its sound engine is a little dated - especially when compared with a current generation CN32/CN42, Yamaha, or Roland. However the wooden-key keyboard action is among the best available. If I was looking for a solid instrument to use as a MIDI controller for Ivory or Pianoteq, the CE200 would be very high up on my list.

Originally Posted By: Andrée
I would like to hear some inputs about the supposed deformation of the AWA Grand PRO II action, after some use.


Originally Posted By: maserman1
Ah - the capstans!

I've never heard of any fault with the capstans themselves. the only problem connected with them is grease contamination from the hammer fulcrum, which causes noise/wear of the key slips.


I too am not aware of any problems related to the capstans on the AWA Grand PRO II. Andrée, are you sure this is what you mean by 'supposed deformation'? Do you have any forum posts to illustrate this point?

Some early AWA Grand PRO II actions had problems with 'squeaking' keys, however this issue has long since been resolved by switching to a teflon-based powder lubricant.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1296240 - 10/29/09 06:43 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Kawai James]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Hi James!

What I meant with "supposed deformation" refers to another thread on this forum:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1294652/1.html

In the fourth paragraph in the initial post, the word "deformation" is used, perhaps the writer meant something else...

/Andrée

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#1296265 - 10/29/09 07:26 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Andree]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9368
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Andrée,

Thank you for referencing the other thread.

I believe the rubber switch pads that you are referring to are designed to compress and retract in this way - this is why they are manufactured from rubber.

This is an important part of the action mechanism, and not a fault.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1296472 - 10/30/09 06:56 AM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Kawai James]
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
Hi,

I'm the one who spoke about this issue. What i meant is that the rubber pad at the end of the key lever is likely to be somewhat compressed at the point where the hammer lays.

I have noticed this on the mechanism 3 keys reproductions found in some shops, I noticed that the initial downforce needed for a key to start to move was not the same for all of them, and the only explanation was that for some there was more friction, and I noticed that the rubber pads were not totally resilient, and some where eventually more or less "dug" where the hammer lays.

On this picture you can see the pad at the end of the keys.



I have not such problem of irregularity on my CA51, but I feel friction compared to a real piano for which the metal pilots on the end of the keys is in contact with felt.

Also you can read the jommo post here (need a translation) that speak about changing something on each key and a better action then http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethread-tastengeraeusche-kawai-122539-4449379-10.html

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#1296566 - 10/30/09 10:35 AM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: sieg66]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Hi Sieg66!

I have to ask you about the reproduced key mechanism you are refering to in your last post. You say that the initial force needed to create a movement of the hammer depends on the degree of deformation on the rubber pads. Are you sure that the difference does not depend on the different weights on each hammer? I believe they want to illustrate the heavier and lighter keys as they appear on the real keyboard, but I might be wrong.

/Andrée

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#1296741 - 10/30/09 03:50 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Andree]
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
Hi Andrée,

You may be right, if you look at 1'10 in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58ZXnzEVaZs

you can see that the left hammer is bigger than the right one, but I also noticed, in the real one, that rubber pads were slightly distorded at the center. These rubbers are covered by a transparent adhesive that in my opinion is not as slippy as it shoulf be, giving some sluggish feeling. In a real piano there is not such a resistance when you start to depress a key.

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#1296798 - 10/30/09 05:14 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: sieg66]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Hi again!

It seems to be the difference in weight that caused the feeling of heavier touch on some keys. However how would you describe the character of the surface you call "rubber", to me, rubber is a high friction material? If they have used this in the mechanism then I believe the purpose is to give friction rather than trying to eliminate it, or what do you think?

/Andrée

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#1297061 - 10/31/09 07:49 AM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Andree]
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
Sometimes ago I opened my CA 51 to do some (successfull) regulation, and I closely saw these pads. They are made of two components, one is a black neoprene type material, like maybe for a diving suit, with a slippy surface made of thick transparent plastic that seems sticked on it. You can see them in the above video.

Maybe the purpose is to reduce noise, for the hammer can fly away from the key then fall on it, they are not linked. But the fact that there is some pressure and the rubber is slightly compressed result in some friction, especially in the start of the depressing of the key.

But if you like the touch of kawai CA's, it's surely not a problem as it don't seem to make worse.

In this topic http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...html#Post661808

Cloudswimmer spoke of the sponge like feeling after playing his accoustic and FP7, it's the same feeling I get after coming from my parents grand piano.

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#1297110 - 10/31/09 09:29 AM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: sieg66]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Sieg66, thanks for your input. I have looked through other threads on this forum, and been in contact with Thomann.de trying to understand how big this problem actually is. Thomann says that Kawai have had some issues with their wooden action but since about two years the complaints have been reduced.
I presume that you have had your CA51 for about one year now, can you give us an update in how you feel today about the action/quality. Are you satisfied with your purchase?

/Andrée

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#1297273 - 10/31/09 02:39 PM Re: Deformed key action on AWA Grand PRO II? [Re: Andree]
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
I think I still prefer my Kawai than other brands models. I'm satisfied with it, especially after having reduced significantly the keys lateral move (wobbling). I have never had squeaking issues.

The touch is a bit light and sluggish, but I never get pain in my arms and it's a good thing. The sound is too dull in my opinion, and we are far from the sound of a real piano, even of a recorded one. If I were you I will wait for CA 63 and 93, but I don't think that currently other manufacturer give you a better choice than kawai (appart from V piano or GT / Avant grand).

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