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Hi TLT,

I'm doing a little lurking here. You are really digging in to this thread. Good going!

An easy way to get that Charleston beat is to count those eighth notes in the measure so that you are saying: "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and".
The left hand plays on beat 1 and restrikes on the "and" of 2.

Below is a link to the song titled "Charleston". You get to see the Charleston dance as the song is played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uwm...ynext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

Keep up the good work.

Barb

TLT, I would also start improvising since that's your goal here. Here's how to start very easily. Just remember the chord tones of each chord and play only those but bias your choice to 3-5-7-9 of each chord.

For example,
in Am7, pick C-E-G-B.
In D7, pick F# A C E.
GMaj7, use B D E F#,
CMaj7 use E G B D.
Fm7b5 play A C E Ab.
B7b9 play C Eb Gb Ab A.
(notice how we skip the root)


Play them in no particular order and it will be easier on the fingering if you alternate between going up and going down the notes.

Start off with quarter notes first. Then go with mostly eighth notes and then work on putting a lot of frequent rests in between.

Get your fingers acquainted also by practicing arpeggios on these chords in all inversions (include the root).

When you start this, swing issue will come up. As I said, the phrasing part of this is the most difficult to learn. But there will be immediate satisfaction in the improvisation.

Barb, great youtube example! That's the Charleston. But for our purposes TLT, notice that we slow that down A LOT. So the 2+ will be more noticeable.

When I first learned the Charleston Rhythm, my teacher had me sing the 1 and 2+ while he slapped 1-2-3-4 on a table. The 2+ sounds like it's dragging the beat and the 1 is back on the beat. This constant being on the beat and then behind the beat brings about this tension and forward motion called swing.

You tackled the Charleston maybe way too early in this process, I would look at this on a more long term basis and focus more on the Right hand swing and improvising. The LH can just play whole notes.

Hey swingin Barb, good of you to chip in! So now I know what Charleston rhythm is, and yes, I think it might be best just to leave it aside in terms of playing for now. I'll come back to it.

I've read various things in this thread about 'swing' - not all of which I understand, so why don't I tell you what I do understand (or at least, think I understand) and we can start from there? You're way ahead of me here, so probably however imperfectly I express myself, you are going to get it.

I was introduced to swing in a book on blues. It says basically if I see quavers then I play them crochet-quaver as in 12/8. I see 4/4 on the page, I assume I should play 12/8, unless it says 'straight eights' at the top. This I get, I feel, and I can play.

Now, what jazzwee seems to be saying is that in jazz, swing is going to be somewhere between straight eights and a 12/8 rhythm, but not *ever* *ever* *ever* a strict dotted rhythm. The precise time-differential between that first and second quaver dosen't seem too important. This I can accept, but please tell me if I've got it right.

So, if the above is correct, then you'll understand why, when you say to put the beat on the 'and' of 'two', I'm sitting here scratching my head and wondering where exactly that 'and' is. Because I can cope with eights that are half of a quarter, and I can cope with 12/8, but in between them is unexplored territory for me. But I've digressed on to Charleston, and perhaps I should just leave this bit be.

The next thing I think I understand is that despite the apparent freedom of rhythm, there is a strict beat which cannot be altered. I have my percussionist or my metronome going, and I can't just speed up or slow down at will. Again, I'm used to this, just let me know if I've got it right. There were some disparaging comments earlier in the thread about rubato, and I want to make sure I've understood you correctly.

The above is pretty much what I think I understand.

Lingo-wise, a couple of things in the thread didn't make sense to me. Upbeats, downbeats and offbeats seem to have different meanings for us. For me, upbeat is the anacrusis, the bit of the melody before the first beat of the bar ('the autumn'). The downbeat is '1'. Offbeats are beats 2 and 4? The 'and'? I never knew a word for that one.

Btw, you are both very kind. My efforts, when I play them back, sound pretty pathetic to my ears. But I never did find out another way of learning! I would have liked to have others learning with me, but I'm a couple of years late for that!

Hi again TLT,

I can help on your question regarding the Charleston beat. I realize that you will be holding off on this for a while.

Jazzwee will correct me if I am wrong here. The way I understand Charleston is to count the eighths as half of a quarter as you say above. The count is an even "one and two and three and four and". The left hand has even eighths, and the right hand will swing. Swing is where Jazzwee is the expert. He will guide you well.

I'm anxious to hear you begin improvising. That is where the real fun starts.

Copy that, Barb

So I know I said I wouldn't, but is this Charleston?
http://www.box.net/shared/co96j8jzjn

First shot at improvising:
http://www.box.net/shared/bn38740v7f

You're going to tell me I should have made them detached. Yes, yes I know. Next time. But apart from that, is this what you had in mind?

WOW! TLT - your Charleston rhythm is right on. Now, you have to learn the dance.

And your first improvisation gets a by me.

I am sure Jazzwee will be offering some great advice to help you along. Enjoy the journey.

TLT, in 4/4 Rhythm, all quarter notes are DOWNBEATS.

So in 4/4, there are 4 downbeats in a bar.

Now look when playing Eighth notes, there will be 8 notes in a bar. Eighth notes that coincide with the Quarter note beats are also called downbeats.

The in between eighth notes are called upbeats.

So in 4/4....

| 1 2 3 4 | (four quarter notes)

or

| 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and | (count as 8 separate beats).

also commonly displayed as

| 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |

Now try not to think of this as 12/8 or any other meter. It is just 4/4.

Above, the numbers are downbeats, the offbeats or upbeats (same thing) are the +'s or and's if you say it out loud.

In jazz most tunes are in 4/4 and the typical division of notes is in eighths. This is probably true 70% of the time. So we learn to solo in eighths and vary it with quarters and whole notes but the basic phrase is driven by eighth notes.

Now how does this relate to swing?

The idea of a dotted eights concept will lead to a non-authentic sound. Real jazz is more flexible than that. Sometimes I will play straight, sometimes a ratio closer to a 1:2 (short:long pairs of eights).

I want to deemphasize the dotted eight concept and have you concentrate more on giving accents to the upbeats/offbeats (the + notes). If a line you play has a note falling in those parts of the bar, accent it. You can accent it more or less to your desire and accenting in itself will often give it a little extra time.

To practice, play a scale and accent every other note (match it to land on the + of the bar.

I'm trying to get the time to make another example...

TLT, you've certainly conquered your understanding of the Charleston Rhythm! I would say you're covering this material at an incredible pace.

Regarding the actual playing, at the beginning, the time was a little off. The 2+ needed to be dragged back a little bit and then by the end, you really got into the swing of things and it started to sound more swingy. I'm being very exacting here so that you can listen to yourself and hear this.

Playing charleston as a 'comping' style on the left hand is something that has to be ingrained in the subconscious so I'm not expecting you to apply it to playing immediately. I don't even remember when it became automatic. Maybe a year later for me.

Let me say a few words about left hand comping. At the beginning, playing whole notes is perfect since we don't want to distract the right hand. But if you listen to actual Jazz greats comp, the left hand never does anything fixed. Typically comping fills some empty spots and many times you never do it completely. I remember in some of what I recorded, the LH may only do the 2+ occasionally. Bill Evans would shift from whole notes to Charleston. So no fixed rule here. Variation is often the key.

I have good news for old thread readers!

A COMPLETE PDF (TEXT ONLY) of the entire thread is now available for download on Page 1 (Index).
This is the Jazz Study Group 'Book' now! It is huge. But makes for a lot easier reading when done offline.

There's a lot of information here shared by many people.

Courtesy of Ed (Riddler). Thanks Ed!

That's what I'm afraid of!

Thanks guys for getting the thread more user-friendly. I don't know you all personally, but thanks all the same.

Hi jazzwee, I just had a more careful look through your comments, and I think now I'm getting somewhere in understanding. Charleston rhythm (once I understood what it was) is something I've heard and I didn't find it difficult to play simply, obviously it will be a while before it's automatic and accurate.

There was just one thing I wanted to quiz you on because I want to be sure I understand you.



You mean short-long as in a scotch snap? Maybe a very laid back scotch snap?

Barb - I'll let you know when I've got the dance covered.

Here's a quick solo I just did...

Jazzwee's Autumn Leaves Solo

This is played at 150bpm to a backing track. This is very rough. Single pass recording of multiple choruses. The backing track was created by the Yamaha keyboard so I don't particulary like the bass playing.

The point I'm trying to demonstrate here is that I decided to stick to straight chord tones ONLY. This means I tried to stick to 1-3-5-7-9 of each chord. So there's nothing new or unusual in my note selections. Everything is being driven by the swing and phrasing (hopefully).

On the swing side, I'm concentrating on legato playing of eighths with accents. Perhaps the best way to discuss swing is to show examples.

Here's another solo that's played at 175bpm. Now I make zillions of mistakes here. But I'm just trying to demonstrate very fast playing (which obviously I'm not that good at). But notice that when playing fast, there's really no swing in 16th notes.

The swing often comes from ending of phrases and the eight note and quarter note playing.

Fast Solo
Fast Solo2


Another comment on note selection. Whether playing fast or slow, the note choices are the same. It's just streaming a lot faster. I'm still picking mostly chord tones here and later on adding some chromatics.

If I were to actually play Autumn Leaves in a gig, it would probably be reharmonized and there would be a lot of chord substitutions. That would offer more note choices and create a more modern jazz sound.

Hahaha! TLT, you are stretching my limited UK knowledge here. Aside from a "Crotchet" and a "quaver", I'm out of my league here. I have no idea what a Scottish Snap is...particularly since Jazz is an American invention, I wouldn't look elsewhere for Rhythmic origins

Just for fun... Here I'm just playing a snippet with a guitar sound on the keyboard. Again Autumn Leaves. Sometimes, the different instrument sound gives me different soloing ideas. I also like doing solos with a saxophone sound.

Guitar Patch on Keyboard

BTW - I'd rather play a real piano or at least a weighted keyboard when recording. I'm not used to the unweighted synth keys. Very little dynamics control. But this is all I can do in limited time.

Like the recordings above, these are imperfect single trys at recording. So they are like practice sessions.

Sax Solo (on Keyboard

At least these examples might illustrate how swing sounds on different instruments...That's my excuse anyway

On this one I keep losing the form...

Don't bash me too hard with these recordings...

I liked all of them, jazzwee.

And I got out my old lead sheet for Autumn Leaves - probably won't really join in here, but it was fun to play thru with a little more skill than I had the first time

I'd still vote for this for best thread on PW. I suppose the Chopin thread might give it some competition, but this is terrific.

Cathy

Thanks Cathy! We're just here to inspire and teach and we are Piano beginners like everyone else in this forum. Hopefully we are filling a need and provide a platform for many to jump beyond the "beginner" level.

I really appreciate your comment.