To Mary-Rose's (and Chopin4life's) list I would add Prelude #4, in E min. Am not aware of a nickname for this one, but it keeps popping up in movies and seems to be a popular piece for piano students who are just beginning to learn Chopin.

Me again. I can only write so much and then I run out of screen. Still haven't figured out why this happens to me.

Re: Jeremy's book. First of all, it would make a glorious Christmas present for anyone interested in not only piano music but also some of the great pianist and composers. As I was browsing through it, just briefly, I came across some interesting bits of information:

"Chopin was 5'2":" (Gosh, I thought he was 5'7". And forgive me, but that popular song: "Five Feet Two, Eyes of Blue, but oh what those 5 feet could do" came to my silly mind.

"A passionate lover with a prudish aversion to overt sexuality, he unveiled in the piano a realm of sensual possibilities, never previously dreamt of."

"...he retained to the end his capacity for happiness, and was even able to regard his illness with shafts of humour. He retained, too, his capacity for friendship. And yet Liszt said of him. 'He would give you almost anything, except himself.' That he reserved, in all its richness and variety, for his music."

And Debussy: 'Chopin was the greatest of them all for through the piano alone he discovered everything.'"

That's all for now because I know I about to lose my space again. Be back with my "list."

Kathleen

I guess I tend to overanalyze questions like these, as my first reaction is "best known to whom?" The answers could be different from musicians, from pianists in particular, and from the general public—and even within each group depending on an individual's knowledge.

I don't think anyone from any group would say that the Preludes are categorically what Chopin is best known for. I think that reflects the (lack of) knowledge of the author of the statement, and it may as well have been pulled out of thin air.


This would be my list of individual pieces, too, to which I would add the "Heroic" Polonaise and the Fantaisie-Impromptu. But—overanalyzing again—I think that many non-musicians would recognize these tunes as familiar but not necessarily know that they were written by Chopin.

And that could be a whole other category, in which the Funeral March, in my opinion, would be the most famous of the lot. And while I think that most people of most backgrounds know the name "Minute Waltz," they aren't so likely to recognize it by melody (and they probably believe, too, that "minute" refers to a 60-second duration rather than minuteness in size).

I think Chopin's best-known category of pieces—in a hypothetical, randomly sampled, statistically average way —is the Polonaises. Chopin is so strongly associated with Poland, after all, and two of the Polonaises have readily recognizable themes.

Steven

Yes the funeral march is probably the most famous to the general public, although most probably don't know it was written by Chopin. Yet, about the polonaises, I hadn't even heard of the word "polonaise" until around a year ago when I first got into piano as a serious hobby. But, then again, I was young (and still am) and not very knowledgeable in classical music (I'm still not). Saying that though, the first time I knowingly listened to the Heroic Polonaise, I did think "I recognize that!".

He was 5'7" (unless he was using really big lifts when they measured him for his passport.)

The Piano
Jeremey Siepmann
Carlton Books, pub., 2002, 192pp, hardcover
ISBN-13: 9781858681900

The Piano: The Complete Illustrated Guide to the World's Most Popular Musical Instrument
Jeremey Siepmann
Hal Leonard, pub., 1998, 192pp, softcover
ISBN-13: 9780793599769

Appears to be the same book with a different jacket. Both editions are out of print, but are available from used bookstores. I remember seeing it in such a place, but passed it by. Maybe I was looking for something more hardcore than a coffee-table book; I got a couple on the history of the instrument and on its physical workings at about the same time. Or maybe it was too much money for a used book (our local store is known for that), or not in the best condition (that, too). I'm glad to have a more informed opinion; I'll look for it again--- once my book budget is refreshed. I believe I have enough to read this month!

"I don't know what page it's on, but sometime early in 2008 (I think) we had a long discussion of the various theories of what was wrong with Chopin..."

Thanks, Elene, I found it. Spot-on regarding the time-frame, which was a big help. (Did you know, Scriabin's daughter was named Elena.)

"If it's OK with Jeff Clef, I will address him as Clef."

I like it, Kathleen. I know about a dozen Jeffs, as many Toms, and God knows how many Mikes, and I use the very same device.

"Do you agree that his preludes were what he was best known for? And why?"

I don't have a definite opinion about this. The waltzes are certainly very familiar, and the etudes. Right now, I'm working my way through Garrick Ohlsson's reading of the Nocturnes. He takes them at a deliciously slow tempo, one might almost say eccentrically slow compared to other readings I have on disc. There's a lot to be said for it. He reads them to make it sound as if Chopin was doodling or improvising at the piano, late at night in the summertime, with the fragrant night air flooding through the open windows; his thought unfolding very gently. My special favorite, the G min Op. 37, No. 1 is especially delicious, with the turns and trills slow enough to hear them in a more detailed way... almost like a string vibrating at such a low frequency that you can hear it tick back and forth. And who knows, performing them on the Bosendorfer Imperial, maybe the resonance of those extra bass strings can be sensed, if not heard directly.

Whether it would work on the concert stage, I'm not so sure; it may be too intimate, too narcotic, to project in a big hall. Never mind, it projects fine in my music room.

Well, now that it has been discovered that Siepmann was incorrect about Chopin's height, I wonder what else he has written that perhaps is not true. I know he has a great reputation, so perhaps I am being too hard on him. He mentions in this same book that Liszt practiced 14+ hours a day. Maybe so, but how often I wonder?

Kathleen

Probably huge swaths of humanity could hum the first few notes of the Funeral March, though they might have no idea where it came from. What would Warner Brothers cartoons have been without that piece?

Among the preludes, certainly one which entered the popular consciousness is #20, the one Barry Manilow used for "Could it Be Magic?". If you were trying to forget about that, I'm sorry I reminded you! (Another pianist of Polish extraction with a heroic nose!)

Kathleen, or someone, why not try to look up Siepmann and write to him? Perhaps he'd chat with us a bit.

Liszt couldn't have practiced 14 hours every day... would have left no time for chasing women... no, seriously, he was busy composing too!

Elene

I listened to Siepmann's book on tape a couple of years ago - I remember the height business and I think some sort of mistake about one of Chopin's sisters, or maybe Elsner or Maria - whatever it was it was obvious - - anyway except for a couple of faux pas like that I thought it was a pretty good book.

The notorious "Funeral March" was the first Chopin I ever learned to play -(and all I learned of his for a long time) - I must have been about 10. I remember I couldn't keep a straight face. I wasn't into Chopin yet and it was just so campy at the time.

Frycek, surely you don't mean that you played the whole Funeral March, with the ginormous chords, at age 10?? If so, that's phenomenal!

Elene

Kathleen,

Can you please describe what you mean when you say you run out of space? Does the page go blank? On my screen, when I reach the bottom of the text box where I write, a scroll bar appears on the right, so I can write more (although usually I don't write very long messages... )

CA

Now that you mention it, I've had to sort this out in my head. It must have been about a grade 3 version - there were really spooky tombstones printed on the top of the page and it sounded just like on the cartoons - I remember that vividly. (I was probably more about 8.) I learned the whole real thing later probably at about 13. I was a big kid for my age and I've got pretty stretchy hands from playing hymns (?)-always have had.) I think my subconsious has combined the pieces. I've never done anything phenomenal in my life.

Elene: As much as I would like to, I would not have the nerve to write to Siepmann. He might think I was more knowledgable than I really am.

Frycek: That's good news about his book being fairly accurate. Now I just have to figure out how to get it...from Oxford Publishing? But which one? That's funny about your playing the Funeral March, with the tombstones on top of the page. You should try to find the music again, record it, and play it through speakers for all the little kiddies to listen to on Halloween. Though I doubt they would even know what it is.

And on that subject, the more I thought about Chopin's most recognizable compositions, I have to agree with Steven. Not to sound so negative, but I think the average 30 year-old today (and I said average for there are always exceptions), would not recogniize ANY music by Chopin. Just where or when do they listen to classical music? It's rather sad, but I think that's pretty much the situation. I remember going into Target a few months ago and trying to find the "Classical" section in their huge music department. When I asked the clerk where it was, he said they didn't have one. I guess they only display what will sell, and obviously classical does not sell. The same went for Barnes and Noble. Good grief, you would think they would have a large classical sectiotn. Not the case at all.

CA: I don't know why I am the only person who seems to have this trouble. When I come near the end of the box, I switch to Full Reply Screen and hit that scroll arrow, which gives me another half of inch. I have to do this a few times, and then I can't see what I am writing as the screen keeps bounching around.

Well, I'm bouncing agin, so that's it.

Kaithleen

I don't remember seeing this image before:



It's from the Cortot edition of the Preludes (in French).

Steven

"I guess they only display what will sell, and obviously classical does not sell. The same went for Barnes and Noble."

Actually, Classical is a good, steady seller--- not with the flash, glamour and hormone overload of the pop, rock, and country charts (and its ready turnover), but very respectable. The B&N music dept. manager told me the other day that the sales are going to downloads, rather than to people in the store buying pieces of plastic (except, of course, for old fuddy-duddies like me who have lived through any number of OS and platform changes and who know what it is to have their hard drive go south, or their record collection become useless).

Even in a big chain like B&N, every store is not the same, and some managers do a better job stocking the classical section.

It may be a losing battle. Their business model features a built-in disincentive to buy anything in the store (it costs a lot more compared to ordering for home delivery), but of course you have to know, in advance and sight-unseen, the nature of the content you're ordering--- and tolerate the suspense of seeing if UPS is going to get it there, when they gt good and ready. That may be fine for the older, already-educated and jaded sort of person, but it cuts off the feet of the market for the up-and-coming listener.

But, who am I to tell them how to do their business, or to persuade them that cash sales are worth their while.

If it's any consolation, their selection of books about music is an even worse train wreck, and I think, frankly, the managers and buyers just don't have any clue what to stock.

Hmmm, I may have worked my way around to agreeing with you...

I took a trip to my local HMV just the other day and they did have a reasonable selection of classical music on offer (not that I was looking for it at the time), though I do prefer to download it onto my iPod (that I'm using right now to write this as a matter of fact). That way I can take it anywhere, use headphones so I don't disturb other people, but I can also use a 'docking station' to play it without headphones. The wonders of modern technology. It's a win win situation in my case.

Kathleen - if it's any comfort, which it probably isn't, I bounce around when writing replies too.

Sotto - I'm not sure if I've seen that portrait or not. I am wondering if it is a very poor reproduction of this one - what do you think?

Wouldn't it be exciting if it were a hitherto unknown photo! I know that Cortot did collect Chopin memorabilia.

Mary-Rose, the portraits seem so similar that I do reckon they are the same. But I'm not sure I recognize the one in your link, either.

It's confusing! I know the more familiar images by virtue of having seen them repeatedly; in the case of less known ones, it becomes hard to recall if I've seen them and forgotten or really am seeing them for the first time.

Steven

I don't think I've seen that portrait either. Will wonders never cease? It isn't coming out very clearly on my screen; it's awfully dark. At first I thought it was the angelic one that was by Rubio? or just attributed incorrectly to Rubio, I can't remember? but it's not. (Too lazy to look up the other portrait.) It doesn't appear to be a photograph.

Frycek, I think playing the whole Funeral March at age 13 is pretty fine too. I'm still challenged a bit by those hefty chords, which push my own stretchiness to its limits.

I love to play that for Halloween and Day of the Dead (unoriginal though that may be), but haven't looked at it yet this season.

Borders has a pretty good classical music section, and also a decent number of books about music-- at least they did last time I looked. Unfortunately I tend to help wreck the local economy by buying online like so many others.

Elene

The portrait I used in my link was this quite familiar one from 1844; I made it darker to more closely resemble the poor reproduction of the first.

That makes sense. Cortot owned that portrait at one time. He mentions it in his In Search of Chopin. According to Cortot one of Chopin's female students was engaged to the artist. She asked her fiance to paint a linkness of her "beloved maestro" and Chopin agreed to sit for it if the artist could come to his apartment as he was no longer able to manage the stairs to the artist's studio. The artist obliged.

Now that portrait is familiar! (And the one of which the other two reminded me.)

Steven

Hey, remember that "studly" image of Chopin that we were all ga-ga about. Well, at least the ladies were. When I think of that now, I am a bit ashamed.

It is good to know, MaryRose, that I am not the only one who has a ghost haunting my site on the forum.

Now...you all have to tell me how you post those images on this site. I haven't been able to figure it out. I think Frank doesn't want pictures because he has certainly made it difficult.

Thanks, Elene, for letting me know about Borders. I had forgotten that they also sell Cd's. My daughter gives me gift cards for every single holiday, and I have several in my purse, just waiting to be used.

Chopin4life: I had an iPod and have thought of downloading some music but have been a bit hesitant in doing so for fear I will have problems. Does it work well?

Thanks all,
Kathleen

Kathleen, while I kind of hate to support big chain stores, Borders gives me so many good coupons that I go there fairly often. You can easily sign up for their rewards programs, and they often give 30% off or even more, with CDs often included.

The student who married the painter, Rubio, was Zofia Rozengardt. (I think that's the correct spelling.) She's the one who wrote a diary that included descriptions of her lessons, the one that's extremely unflattering to her teacher. Yet, he seems to have been quite fond of her and her husband, and if I remember correctly, he wrote his only piece of sacred music, now lost, for their wedding.

Elene

I'm afraid we may have managed to merge a couple of "reminiscences" like a pair of old gossips at a funeral - according to Cortot the lady student was "Vera de Kologrivoff" and she married Rubio three years after the portrait was done.

This is from In Search of Chopin by Alfred Cortot:

"In a letter to Chopin, dated 1843, she informs him that she has spoken to M. Rubio about a portrait. To save Chopin the effort of climbing stairs, Rubio has for this once consented to depart from his normal practice and come to him with his palette and brushes. Rubio is determined, she adds, 'to finish the little portrait in oils in two sittings.' She ends by urging Chopin to agree to the project because she wishes there to be in existence 'a portrait that is a likeness.' "

Steven: I keep meaning to ask you about that dog in your closing. Care to share?

Elene: Thanks for the tip about Borders. My daughter worked for them for two years as their event planner (at our local store), and she never once mentioned anything about discounts.

Frycek, you're right. Now I'm home and can look things up, and I see that it was indeed Mlle. de Kologrivoff that married Rubio. Zofia Rozengardt married the poet Bohdan Zaleski, and Chopin wrote not just one but two pieces for the couple, and was a witness at their wedding, despite the apparent clashes with the bride during her lessons. See Eigeldinger pp. 188-9.

I'm confused about the portrait; I don't know if there is one portrait that looks subtly different in different reproductions, or two portraits that look very similar to each other. On p. 68 of Ates Orga's Chopin bio, one finds just the head of a very angelic-looking portrait. The caption is "Chopin. Portrait by Teofil Kwiatkowski formerly attributed to Rubio (Alfred Cortot Collection). But in the original edition of this book, the same portrait was captioned "Franz Liszt"! I don't know how trustworthy the second caption is either.

I couldn't find a good view of this portrait (or portraits) this morning when I did an image search, but here is a sort of decent look at the one that's in the Orga book:
http://www.documentamusica.de/html/en-bio-chopin.html
It doesn't say who painted the original.

While looking for that, I came across someone's attempt at reconstructing the Delacroix double portrait:
http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/c...ndDelacroix.jpg

If you want lurid and not overly accurate writing, you could check out
http://www.sexualfables.com/vampires_in_venice.php
which is mostly about Sand and Musset, but also mentions Chopin as one of the weak, boyish, and easily controllable men Mme Sand was attracted to. Sigh. Don't get me started....

Elene

A good, if not complete, online source for Chopin portraits is this:

Chopin portraits

It was started in the last few months of his life by George Platzman, the University of Chicago professor responsible for acquiring the great collection of first editions housed in the Regenstein Library there (and which, as many of you know, are also available online). He passed away before he could finish the site, so there are several portraits and/or images that ought to be there that aren't.

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff.

All those portraits, and we still barely know what he looked like.

Seeing the Clesinger bust and the death mask directly next to each other made it clear how many little improvements the sculptor made; I'd been thinking that it was more literal than it really is. The bust seems to me like what Our Friend might look like as a sort of perfected heavenly being. Which I guess is reasonable!

Elene

Or if he hadn't just died a protracted death after very debilitating illness.

BTW if Cortot's portrait isn't the Rubio that means it may still be out there somewhere - - -

(if the Russians or the Nazies didn't get it)