Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
Here is my dilemma and hoping others will chime in. I have been following the structured approach, reading notes, and playing basic to medium pieces, but recently decided to go the lead sheet way. Everything looks fine... I know most of the basic chords you find in pop music, but my trouble is what to do with those darn chords!
Take a simple song (Mary Had a Little Lamb will do), which is in 4/4. My choices which I tried are:
1) Play the C major chord in the LH on every count (4 times), or variations thereof (once for the whole measure, or even roll the chords, like C E G E, or C followed by (E G) together three times, etc.).
2) Play a ballad style: on 1/8th notes, counting 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &: C G E G E G E G.
3) Play Alberti Bass style.
What other basic styles do you use? Especially ones used in pop music (no Jazz to keep things simple). I know some artists develop their own styles which have their own flavor and sound, but I'm just looking for a good sounding style that fits with many songs.
Also, if there is a book on this or a good reference. I noticed most of the places that talk about lead sheets, fakebooks, play by ear, etc., talk mainly about the types of chords, but not the style you play with those chords.
Check out a thread in ABF I just bumped up on Pete the Bean's Pop Piano Pro and Take the Lead series. He teaches left hand patterns and easy improvisation for pop lead sheet reading.
Thanks for the link Barb. There is lots of info in there, and I hope to be able to go through that soon. For now, I'm just looking for some ideas from those who play from lead sheets, and want to see what everyone uses when they read off chords from a fake book, etc.
For fakebook reading, I occasionally add some stride. To make it easy, you can do a shell left hand stride. If the chord changes every 2 beats, plunk out that low root on beat 1. For beat 2, bring your left hand up to a higher two note chord consisting of 3 and 7. Then, repeat process for beats 3 and 4. Try it out on a couple of measures of your favorite pop tune. It adds some nice variety to a song.
A Sudnow Method Fanatic "Color tones, can't live without them"
For fakebook reading, I occasionally add some stride. To make it easy, you can do a shell left hand stride. If the chord changes every 2 beats, plunk out that low root on beat 1. For beat 2, bring your left hand up to a higher two note chord consisting of 3 and 7. Then, repeat process for beats 3 and 4. Try it out on a couple of measures of your favorite pop tune. It adds some nice variety to a song.
This is great stuff! That's why I joined this forum.
Thanks for this info Barb. I was wondering the same thing. Any recommendations for Fake books?
For fakebook reading, I occasionally add some stride. To make it easy, you can do a shell left hand stride. If the chord changes every 2 beats, plunk out that low root on beat 1. For beat 2, bring your left hand up to a higher two note chord consisting of 3 and 7. Then, repeat process for beats 3 and 4. Try it out on a couple of measures of your favorite pop tune. It adds some nice variety to a song.
Also I think the same as Auggiedoggy. This is a great technique for the left hand. I did send the slow blues left hand pattern a couple of days ago, set out in this style. http://cisum.info/SlowBlues.pdf
Looking at these books, in addition to the one Barb mentioned. About to check out the shopping basket, unless someone should stop me
How to Play from a Fake Book - Michael Esterowitz; Paperback
How to Play from a Fake Book (Keyboard Edition) - Blake
The Real Little Best Fake Book Ever: C Edition - Hal Leonard
Beethoven: Fur Elise - Neil Miller Analyzed Editions: A Valuable Aid For Memorization And Understanding - Bonus: Excerpts From The Piano Lessons Book - Neil Miller;
Note by Note: A Celebration of the Piano Lesson - Tricia
Piano Girl: A Memoir - Robin Meloy Goldsby; Paperback
Practical Sight Reading Exercises for Piano Students, Books
Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey - Perri Knize; Paperback
Progressive Sight Reading Exercises: Piano Technique - H
Practical Sight Reading Exercises for Piano Students, Book 1
Music_in_Me, you're trying to do it the way many jazz novices do it, that is, learn from a lead sheet --indeed, I tried to do the exact same thing--but in my experience, this is a completely wrong approach.
There are thousands of jazz piano method books you can buy that will take you through the steps, each more mindnumbingly complicated than the previous, so that you end up playing something that resembles jazz/popular piano, that is, a bad version of what a pro does. I tried to do this--wade through 3 jazz piano method books, as well as books on classical harmony, counterpoint, etc.--but I didn't get very far and gave up on all book study. It was just too tedious to plow through all of that material. And it was not helping me one bit to play by ear and arrange.
I finally decided that this was not right, because it all comes down to playing by ear. Why plow through thousands of pages of complex theory, when in the end you'll still have to do it all by ear?
Trying to learn to arrange from a lead sht. is doing it backwards. Lead shts. are for advanced players who can play by ear. You've got to have a trained ear first, and the way you get that is by improvising-- before you try to do anything else.
To improvise--you've never improvised, I can tell, or you wouldn't be asking this (you need yrs. of improvising before you'd even think of looking at lead shts.)--you sit down at the piano (a digital is better for this) and just dig in with both hands, playing purely by ear, with no thought of any kind of theory. When you do this, all of your musical experience--your classical training (that is, Alfreds), all the songs you've heard on the radio or on recordings, etc.--is drawn on, subconsciously, and influences what comes out of the instrument.
Initially, you might be disappointed by what you produce, because it doesn't seem to sound like the pros-- indeed, it might sound terrible to you, like an child pounding on the keyboard. But try recording some of it, say, a brief few seconds of your improvising, and you might be surprised that it doesn't sound all that bad. Like anything at the piano, improvising takes practice, and over time you'll get better at it and will gradually zero in on the type of sound you want to produce.
Then you'll have a trained ear and will be able to do other things, like arranging, and playing from lead shts., etc. But more likely, you'll forget about all that, because you'll be playing your own music, your own way, and that's so much better than merely arranging someone else's songs.
I have How to Play from a Fake Book, I think it's the Blake Neely version rather than the Esterowitz but I'm not near it at the moment.
It was enormously helpful. I was able to use it in performance almost immediately (playing for church.)
There is a grain of truth in what gyro said, I think. And that is that for many of us, academic knowledge learned out of context does not transfer well to playing.
For example, I read through my wife's theory books and learned about triads in 12 keys, etc. But it made no sense until I played with a Praise and Worship band. Then I only needed one key, D, because that's all the guitar could play. But I needed to spell chords in inversions in real time, and theory hadn't helped me with that. (I know it does for some people)
Typically gyro has observed something and leapt to the wrong conclusion about the cause. It is not the knowledge that was wrong, but the application.
And no I can't improvise. I can play from a lead sheet though.
1) Play the C major chord in the LH on every count (4 times), or variations thereof (once for the whole measure, or even roll the chords, like C E G E, or C followed by (E G) together three times, etc.).
2) Play a ballad style: on 1/8th notes, counting 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &: C G E G E G E G.
3) Play Alberti Bass style.
4) If the chord changes every 2 beats, plunk out that low root on beat 1. For beat 2, bring your left hand up to a higher two note chord consisting of 3 and 7. Then, repeat process for beats 3 and 4
I have a question: When you play using ballad style, it's easy to do 3-note major chords. For example, C E G, becomes C G E. But how do you handle other chords while in this style? If you hit A7 next, how should you play that? What I have been doing is just change it to a major A chord then open the chord as in the C example above.
Trying to learn to arrange from a lead sht. is doing it backwards. Lead shts. are for advanced players who can play by ear. You've got to have a trained ear first, and the way you get that is by improvising-- before you try to do anything else.
Gyro, sounds to me that you needed guidance from a teacher. You cannot just automatically learn to play from a lead sheet. You obviously have to learn how. But to say you're just going to "dig in" results in what? You still have no guidance so you can still NOT play from a leadsheet.
Like anything else, it's not going to take two weeks to learn. You transfer your frustration at learning to every beginner out there.
Just for comparison, I learned to play a basic tune from a leadsheet within a few months of learning piano. Sure it took years to play in a more sophisticated way, but it could have occurred earlier had I received guidance.
And learning to play the tune from the leadsheet is a totally separate concept from doing a Jazz solo. Playing from a leadsheet is not that complicated. Soloing obviously is difficult.
In the recent threads I participated in on this forum, various people have posted links to a number of pros playing on youtube, to show "how it's done." Although these players are very impressive and polished, with many yrs. of training, I personally would not want to play like them. They all tend to produce a similar sound, probably because of the forces in the jazz community who are constantly trying to make jazz uniform and standardized, like classical music. What's the point of playing like them? They already all sound very similar, so what you going to do, just add another carbon copy to that?
I prefer to just dig in and play by ear, always trying to reach for a new type of sound. You study jazz theory books and you're just going to end up sounding like everyone else. I see no point in doing that. In my view, you might as well not play if you're just going to sound like everyone else. So I study no books and do it all by ear, and if it sounds bad to the textbook jazz players, that's just great, because then I know I'm on the right track. I don't sound like everyone else.
I would love to hear a demonstration of this "new type of sound". Could you please post a recording? A little evidence would go a long way toward countering any skepticism of your theory.
Almost all of my jazz gig playing is based on what I learned from that book.
I usually play with a bass player, but when I'm by myself I play a walking bass line with the left and play the melody and occasional rootless chords between melody notes with the right. This is tricky at first, but once you get the hang of it it works well.
Alternatively, I play 1 & 3 in the left hand and 7 and melody in the right or 1 & 7 in the left and 3 and melody in the right.
Gyro, I wish you luck in your approach. Perhaps there's another option to learning if you don't understand it all. Others can help, you know. You never ask a question here. I am willing to help you if you ask.
HooDoo, you don't get it. You don't want to listen to me, or anyone else. You should develop your own style. Suppose, heaven forbid, that you listened to me and liked what you heard and then tried to emulate it. What's the point of that, copying someone else's style? You might as well not play if you're just going to copy someone else. Someone already plays like that. Adding another copy of such playing to the universe serves no purpose at all. Go your own way. Copying some jazz great just adds another carbon copy to the thousands already in existence from people who previously copied him. That's worthless. We don't need another copy in the universe. There are too many already, thousands of people who all play the same way.
HooDoo, you don't get it. You don't want to listen to me, or anyone else. You should develop your own style. Suppose, heaven forbid, that you listened to me and liked what you heard and then tried to emulate it. What's the point of that, copying someone else's style? You might as well not play if you're just going to copy someone else. Someone already plays like that. Adding another copy of such playing to the universe serves no purpose at all. Go your own way. Copying some jazz great just adds another carbon copy to the thousands already in existence from people who previously copied him. That's worthless. We don't need another copy in the universe. There are too many already, thousands of people who all play the same way.
Gyro - listening to others play is not necessarily about copying someone else's style. Most of us here enjoy listening to music. We are a member of PW because we enjoy the piano. I listen to music on my walks, during mealtime, in the car. In other words, when I am not practicing, I am listening just for the joy of listening. Would you rather me not listen to music and just waste my time by watching TV?
Surprise us all someday and post some of your music. Better yet, put a link to your music in your sig line. We are all ears.
Barb
A Sudnow Method Fanatic "Color tones, can't live without them"
Barb, the greatest favor I could ever do for you is to not post my playing, so that you don't listen to it. You've already got a lifetime of musical experience, which is more than enough material to work with in order to develop your own style.
Forces within the jazz community have already succeeded in turning jazz into something uniform and standardized, like classical piano, where everyone just plays the notes and sounds the same. That's never been what jazz is all about.
With the decline of classical composition and improvisation, jazz is the last place to turn to for people who want to really create and innovate. But that's becoming increasingly difficult with the standards of performance that have been put in place by the textbook jazz people.
You don't want to listen to another jazz pianist, lest you fall into the trap of thinking he's the last word in playing and then copying his style. You should develop your own way of playing. There are already thousands of jazz pianists who all sound the same. There's no point is adding one more carbon copy to them.
Sit down at the piano and dig in and play purely by ear, never thinking for a moment about any theory. This is your own playing, created by you. If initially it sounds like a child pounding mindlessly on a keyboard, that's just great, because it means that you're not sounding like all the jazz players who just copy each other end up playing the same way. You're the one who'll be playing real jazz piano, because you're creating and being original, in contrast to the textbook, everyone-sound-the-same playing that you hear from jazz pianists today.
Gyro - I gotta ask this... Do you gig with other musicians? Do you jam with other musicians? Do you have any desire to ever perform with other musicians? Do you/did you ever sit-in with a band?
With the decline of classical composition and improvisation, jazz is the last place to turn to for people who want to really create and innovate.
There's also New Age piano playing. In fact, listen to what can be just with a few seventh chords in the right hand...
Desert Flowers is from one of my online lessons where students learn how to use the power of limits, i.e. playing only seventh chords in the right hand. This is actually a modal improv.
To take Gyro's odd view, we should not listen to music of other people! What's the point of doing that? We should listen to our own music. No more Beethoven, no more Mozart, no more Clayderman. Only your own music.
This begs the question Gyro: Why did you join this forum? What's the point of learning from anyone else if you only believe in your own "sound"? Can you spell weirdo, Gyro, which incidentally rhymes with your name?
Gyro, you are beginning to infuriate me. You are not a musician, you have no idea what it means to be one. You repeat your posts verbatim, you haven't said one thing helpful to a pianist here.
Wynton Marsalis, one of the the top jazz musicians today says that all people imitate to learn. He is at the forefront of jazz education, and you are telling me that he is wrong?
I suggest you quit playing the piano now and just give up. Stop making excuses about your playing and post some songs for us to hear. If you cannot prove your way is better than get out of here.
Let's face it, Gyro doesn't play jazz, he's never played a jazz gig, or even played with a band. And whatever new sound he is making, its probably not "jazz"..If He actually goes to a jam session to sit in.. he is probably one of those clueless people musicians will make fun of behind their back.
He is giving people advice to beginners on how to get used to improvising freely, which is fine, but it's not jazz.
So far, we have these styles (I added three new ones at the bottom, plus the summary from everyone else):
1) Play the C major chord in the LH on every count (4 times), or variations thereof (once for the whole measure, or even roll the chords, like C E G E, or C followed by (E G) together three times, etc.).
2) Play a ballad style: on 1/8th notes, counting 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &: C G E G E G E G.
3) Play Alberti Bass style.
4) If the chord changes every 2 beats, plunk out that low root on beat 1. For beat 2, bring your left hand up to a higher two note chord consisting of 3 and 7. Then, repeat process for beats 3 and 4
5) Alternate inversions on the beat. Example, CEG, move lower GEC, back up CEG, lower GEC, etc. Lots of variations possible.
6) Oompah. C, EG, C, EG.
7) Arpeggios at various speeds. C, E, G, E quarter notes. CE, GE, CE, GE. (eighth) CEGE, CEGE, CEGE, CEGE. (sixteenth)
8) A woman at my church did this particularly smoothly: C, C octave, above that G, E, C, Repeat.
9) boogie. C4, C5, E4, C5, G4, C5, C4. with a dotted rhythm.
10) root-fifth. C4, CEG4, G3, CEG4, C4, etc.
11) I play a walking bass line with the left and play the melody and occasional rootless chords between melody notes with the right. Alternatively, I play 1 & 3 in the left hand and 7 and melody in the right or 1 & 7 in the left and 3 and melody in the right.
12) Play a full arpeggio: In ascending order, C G E G C, then back to G (for 3/4 time).
13) Play low C, then higher C, then C Major.
14) Play low C, then 2nd inversion of C chord, then C major. If in 4/4, play C major twice.
I still don't know what to do if I have a seventh chord to play, say A7 or E7. How do you make it fit some of the above?
I still don't know what to do if I have a seventh chord to play, say A7 or E7. How do you make it fit some of the above?
Those chords are often used as secondary dominants in the key of C, sometimes to modulate to another key. Another use is E7 to lead in to Am (still in C)or A7 to Dm. Of course they must harmonize with the melody.
You know, we really do need to upload audio samples to make things clear. With that in mind, here's Mary Had a Little Lamb with the 1-3-7 and 1-7-3 method of playing it:
That technique sounds better with a split keyboard and a Bass sound in the left hand, because it's hard not to play the bass line too loudly, as I did in that example.
I was wondering the same thing. Any recommendations for Fake books?
