Hi all, relatively new to this board; thanks for allowing me to join! I have been in the market for a Steinway grand, and it has been a very educational experience. Reading this forum has been a great help.

Well friends, I have found a piano that seems to "sing" to me. It is a 1903 Steinway Model O in Mahogany. It was restored and refinished in 1990 by Steinway, New York. According to the two seperate piano technicans that have examined it, it has a new sound board, pin block, hammers, strings, etc. It plays sweet and easy.

The deal is $17,900, delivered with a new matching Steinway Artist's bench, tuned, polished, 5 year warranty and full trade in allowance. Pictures of the piano can be found here:

Pictures of the 1903 Model O

I would be forever grateful for your input on this major buying decision for my family. We are not concert pianists, just amatuers who enjoy the piano. Thanks for reading and your input.

Brian

Sounds kind of hard to believe. The price seems really low. I have an O that I was trying to sell for $29,000. I didn't generate must interest, but that is okay because I decided to keep it.

Both technicians said it would have sold for $10,000 more last year. I think the market for these kind of items is REALLY depressed right now. Definitely a buyer's market out there. Now is a great opportunity to "invest" in these kind of items. The global demand for restored vintage Steinways only has to go up over the next number of years, and prices wil likely rise. This of course presumes that the piano is properly maintained.

What do you think?

Without examining the piano I could not make any real assessment of value, Brian. Steinway in New York did decent "meat and potatoes" work in the restoration department at that time, but I do not remember playing any pianos at that time that inspired me.

Having said that, it does not mean that this piano would not inspire me. I may have hit upon a few pianos that just weren't my "cup of tea", or this piano you are now considering could have been been given some careful concert preparation. This could easily give a very different impression to a player.

The long and short of it is that this piano is a good deal.... unless it isn't. You should depend on your independent technicians to help answer that question.

Keep us posted,

Thanks for the replies.

The back story is that the piano is owned by an elderly lady, who now in a skilled car facility with Alzheimer's. Her brother is liquidating her assets. The house was sold, so the piano was given to a regional Steinway dealer on consignment for a quick sale. I have been provided a June 1990 letter from Steinway addressed to the then owners stating that the piano was restored and refinished, and that they give it a FMV (at the time of course) of $21,000 t $27,000. I am aware that the 20 year old valuation has little or no relevance with regard to today's FMV.

Both technicans said that the hammers were barely broekn in, and it appears that it hadn't been played much since the restoration. We carefully inspected the soundboard, and it looked fine; nice tight growth rings and no cracks or varnish disturbance. the only criticism was that in a couple of spots the glue wasn't wiped.

I had Steinway NY research the manufacturing record for the [iano and they reported that the piano is a "Living Room Grand Model O" completed March 11, 1903, and is a "Class 3" piano, mahogany finish, overall length of either 6' or 5'10" (intereting they don't know - I haven't measured it yet); and an approximate weight of 616 lbs.

Does anyone know what is meant by "Class 3" piano? This was the designation by Steinway's in their manufacturing records.

Steinway sold it to M. Steinert & Sons, of Boston Mass on March 30, 1903. Steinway has a record that the piano was brought into their restoration center in 1989 (apparently wasn't finished until June 1990, as per the letter). But they do not have records as to what was actually done to the piano.

Thats what i know 9at least so far).

Thanks again for your help.

You love it, the techs like it, the price is sweet. Buy it.

The O's here are 27k...

http://www.countrypiano.com/showroom.html

I don't know how much difference there is in the price of newly rebuilt O and and 20 year old rebuilds, but it may be significant.

I would only add that if the OP has played some other O's or L's done by good rebuilders and likes the piano relative to them, it sounds like a good deal pending tech evaluation of the quality of work done(not just what was done). If the OP is only comparing the sound to some old vertical or low quality grand, it may not be such a good buy despite the price.

I've played a few other O's and L's, but not being an accomplished pianist, my opinion is not too meaningful. I am not buying it for resale, just for my family's enjoyment. I am trying to find out if the price is fair, so that if something happens that results in my decision to sell it over the next few years, I wouldn't be burned too badly.

Any other input would be greatly appreciated~ Thanks!

Price seems great if the piano is good.

I'm surprised the finish on the plate is at such a low quality as far as filling in the imperfections.

Rod, which imperfections are you referring to?

The only picture that is obvious is the one with the serial number. You can see the chips etc are not filled and sanded, just sprayed over.
I will only assume that is the same level of work on the rest of the plate, not that I can see that in other pictures.

Most high end shops make their plates look like new.
It also looks like perhaps the agraffes have been painted.
Not sure but if they are that's not cool.

Only an observation.

I think it might be the serial number picture.

The finish in general doesn't look very well done. You can see it has shrunk up on the music desk for instance, or it just had bad prep work.
Just a pet peeve of mine, but notice that this piano has a gorgeous flame mahagony veneer on the case, and then the legs are maple or cherry, stained mahogany. This was the way Steinway always did it, but if you look at a Mason & Hamlin from the early 20th century, they veneered the legs to match the case. So did the better German companies.
The piano also looks like it has the original keyset.

I agree with Rod's observations as well.
Bottom line, if the independant and qualified techs that inspected it also say the work was done well and it will hold up, along with how much you like it, then at 17k it is a good deal.

Id say go and give it a good listen again. One of my concerns is that NY Steinway hammers were super heavy in the late 80s early 90s. If they were never lightened, they would be poorly matched with a 1903 Steinway O design. Also, my guess is that this piano plays pretty heavy. Heavy hammers and original keys, which were probably not reweighed off to match the weight of the replacement parts which would have been quite a bit heavier than the original parts. You can lift the white keys and look at the side to see if they look new or old.

That's what I thought you were referring to. The rest of the plate looks pretty smooth, as you can see from the other pics of the plate, albeit, the pics are a bit out of focus. Maybe it got damaged during the 20 years since the rebuilding?

I do not believe the agaffes were painted. I didn't know to look actually. The techs didn't mention anything.

Thanks for your critique Kieth. A couple of questions in reply:

1. Where is the finish imperfection on the music desk? I ddin't see that.

2. Well, the legs are original, so I am happy to accept them as they are.

3. I'll definitely check out the sides of the keys. The piano plays quit lightly actually. I have nerve damage to my left hand, and I can't play anything but a light piano.

Thanks for your observations.

You have gotten a clean bill of health on it. The price is good. All you are getting here is a bunch of nitpicking. If you like it, get it.

If the sound matches anything like the price you will be in music dreamland with a beautiful sounding instrument to play. Seems as if it is a good deal on a great instrument. Good Luck

The Steinway experts here can say for sure about this, but I think the Steinways I've seen with the curliced music desk have had the tulip legs. This would not be a significant factor IMO.

One nice thing is that if you wanted to buy a model O with fancy veneer like this today, it would cost a lot extra(probably more than 10K). I'm not even sure if Steinway has that kind of mahogany anymore.

I have had that exact style piano here many times with that music deck and leg combination.

The legs originally had painted grain on the legs to match the case.
Many refinishes do not re-glaze/re-grain the legs as the original.
We do and it looks great.

Did Steinway also combine that style music desk with tulip legs or am I just remembering things wrong?

A 1903 Steinway O is of the earliest scale for the O mdl. Notice no duplex bars and the straight bass bridge. It was somewhat a pre scale mdl. of the M being the only mdl. "O" with 4 wound strings in the tenor(2 bichords in the tenor). If restored at a high level.I personally like this early O scale. It is shorter( being 5'9")than a traditional modern scale "O" (5'10 3/4")that NY made up till 1923 before transitioning to the L. The most recent reissue NY "O" and the standard Hamburg "O" were of the curved bass bridge and 26 note bass with no wound strings in the tenor.

The original casting of the early vintage Steinway grands is or was much more precise than the later years but in general the plate prep as Rod mentions as for Steinway in general was not all that perfect when the piano was new.Overall the castings looked fantastic compared to the Aeolian era Masons,Knabes,Chickerings and ?

As for the finish,you have to take in consideration that any hand rubbed lacquer finish of 19-20 years is not gonna be like day 1.We refinish Steinways that are 20-25 years old. It actually looks pretty good for it's age.I am sure the dealer did a major ? in getting it prepared for resale.

I've seen examples of pianos 20 years back that were restored at Steinway. Most were with new soundboards,bridges and ribs but some had original pinblocks,keyset and damper action. So Steinway does not necessarily do complete remanufacture on every piano that it does.

One side note. Notice that Steinway in restoring the piano changed the hardware from nickel to brass as opposed to plating the original. They actually just replace the hardware as opposed to replating like most independent rebuilders. Afterall Steinway Restoration has access to parts and materials as the does the factory.

Seems like a fair price though a 19 year old restoration even if the piano was never played is not the same as a fresh restoration. Exposure to the elements affects that untouched piano.I'm sure it was not sealed in an air tight hermetically sealed baggie.

That vintage style music rack accompanied the tulip legs,ice cream cone legs,etched sketch case spade legs and other obscure legs from 1897ish to maybe 1907ish. Steinway than went to the newer 380 sketch case with the squared off fallboard,arms,spade legs and ? The vintage era Steinways also had the double molding on the case.

Speaking of double molding on the sides, would it be correct to say that no present day models from any maker do this? I always found it very attractive. I think I've seen it on older Masons also.

If you like the way the piano sounds and feels, the price is certainly reasonable. In today's market you might even be able to get the piano for a flat $15K. Wouldn't hurt to ask.
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But before you do, hire a professional piano technician, preferably one who is a RPT, not affiliated with the selling dealer, and have that person go over the piano for you.
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The "O" can be a fabulous piano.
Good luck with your purchase.

My 1919 M&H has a double molding, something I've always liked, but it does collect dust...lol

If the above is true run, don't walk, to the dealer with a check!

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

It was originally priced at $18,900. they took another $1,000 off, and threw in a new Steinway Artist's Bench (worth $500+ I believe). Also I will be getting a cover key from Steinway, plus the normal shipping, polishing and tuning, with a 5 year warranty and full trade in value in the future. I feel that is a good deal, and I didn't want to squeeze them anymore than that.

One of the techs put a gauge up to one of the pins, and measured it (#2 I believe). He tested the tightness of several pins, and said it had to be a new pin block. The sound board is definitely new too. Well, new as in 20 years old.

The first tech was affliated with the store. I brought in a second tech, not affliated with the store, and he bascially confirmed everything that the first tech said.

The piano was only at the store for a couple of weeks before I came across it. I was looking at a 2004 M they had (for $42,000) and I couldn't justify buying it. The O sounds so much better. So when I went back there by happenstance, there the O was, and well, the rest is history.

I sincerely appreciate all of the input, postive as well as negative. I know some restorers/dealers arent't thrilled to hear that this piano is going for $17,900. Even the techs said that a year ago it would have sold for about $10K more. But the market speaks for itself, and this may just reflect a price correction in the luxury piano market. If there is such a correction, it is a good thing, because it will bring more buyers out of the woodwork (like me) to pull the trigger and buy a piano. This will inevitably put pressure on the prices, and they again will rise. Just the normal ebb and flow of a market.

Does anyone know what Steinway meant back in 1903 when they classified it as a "Class 3" piano? I believe 1903 was the first year for the O. Am I correct?

Thanks again.

There is no price correction in the market. You paid a fair price for what you got. As I mentioned earlier,your restoration is near 20 years old and is not to be compared to that of a newly restored piano.
I believe the first year of the "O" was 1901 or 1902

nylawbiz,

It sounds like you are moving forward with the "O". Congratulations!
I don't know the significance of the Class 3 designation, but it is probably safe to assume that, at the very least, it is not anything derogatory. If it were, you could be sure that it would have been very quickly pointed out by the experts on this forum.

BTW, a friend of mine lives in a beautiful home situated on the side of a mountain off Rt.22 in Hillsdale. He has amazing views of the Berkshires.

fingers

Thanks for the info. How much would you say a newly restored 1902 O in Mahogany is worth in today's market?