Sorry, I'm so grouchy, (re: my last topic on criticism.)

For the most part, I'm pleased with what I am learning from my new teacher but I'm sorely disappointed by her focus on her young, school age students. My teacher enters her youngsters in competitions and has arranged master classes for them which I am invited to observe, not partcipate in. The upcoming recitals are practice performances for her competing students.

When I was a young student, I was never given the opportunity to perform in a recital, competition or master class. One of the reasons I signed on with this teacher was to experience this, but it doesn't seem to be happening. I also find my repertoire choices are restricted because her younger pianists get first choice. I want to work on the Waldstein: "Oh, but another student is preparing that for a competition...." She assigned me two frequently performed Bach WTC Book 1 Preludes and Fugues that she is familiar with. I adore many in Book 2 but she has resisted that. I want to finish the Bach D minor concerto and she is resisting that. I want to learn a Prokofieff sonata - resistance again. I'm quite certain the resistance has nothing to do with the difficulty of the pieces. From what she has said, it has to do with her taste and familiarity with the pieces.

As I'm typing this, I realize I'll have to talk to her about it but I don't think it will get me anywhere without my feeling patronized.

Why compete?...Desire for recognition. Ego?...- Yup - after decades of playing in solitude, I'd like to have something to hang on my wall. Foolish? Perhaps.

Are there any recital/competition venues for amateur codgers?

Deborah, she probably doesn't expect that you would want to do that. How many adults want to perform and compete? Let her know. Do you think she will be patronizing? What if her reaction is different?

That part doesn't sound good.
KS

Check this out! I think there's still time...

http://www.cliburn.org/index.php?page=youtube_competition

google words like: adult amateur competitions and there's a few options to consider?!

I don't know of 'competitions' for amateurs except at the high levels (Cliburn amateur, anyone). The kind of competitions her students are entering likely are age based for youngsters. Once you get into the college range (and beyond) competitions largely are for professionals who want to build their credentials.

What I do not understand is why your teacher is reluctant to have you work on a piece (Waldstein, for instance) that one of the younger students is playing. What difference could that make?

Why would that matter to your teacher, unless you are both playing in the same competition or recital?

I would discuss all this with her - your goals, aspirations, etc. Try to determine whether she is really a good fit for you. If not, there are surely good teachers for adults in your area.

Sorry to hear that Deborah, because you seemed very excited when you first started with her. I find it disappointing that she has been resistant to a few of your suggestions.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I have been getting along with my new teacher very well from the start. He wanted me to work on Chopin's Op 53, but after I told him I wasn't interested, he pushed it no further. I told him I wanted to do some Shostakovich, and while he wasn't familiar with the particular Prelude & Fugue I was interested in, he didn't hesitate to agree, and my lessons have been wonderfully enriching experiences. I did have high expectations, this being a university setting and all, but he has surpassed all expectations had.

My only other serious teacher from the past was also very good about taking my own interests into consideration, so it's almost a little incomprehensible that a teacher would resist a student's first choices, if they are of an appropriate level. While I don't know you personally, I gather you're more than fully capable of knowing what's within your grasp.

I can only suggest that you be very open with your teacher and express your very clear goals to her.

I hope it works out, and the "grouchiness" passes.

Good luck!

Daniel

Without putting words in Deborah's mouth, I do know that her search for this new teacher was quite an extensive one and, from the initial reports, it seemed that it was to be a good fit. Some of this news, then, is very disappointing.

I understand that performance venues for adults not in the competition circuit are few and far between. My only suggestion, Deborah, if you cannot find a performance group for adult students is to try to organize one. We have two here in Victoria, and while the range of abilities is from the novice to the advanced amateur, they do provide two performance opportunities per month to those of us who wish them. Each group is independent of any teacher's studio, although one is supported by the Conservatory and thus limited to students of Conservatory teachers.

While we are limited, usually, to a maximum of 15 minutes each per recital, the performances are nevertheless very helpful for developing stage presence and displaying our progress.

I am quite disappointed for you that your teacher seems to be shunting you to the sidelines in ways that I find hard to understand. Why should she discourage you from working on material that suits you because it doesn't suit her? Surely she has enough professional training that she can - or could, or should - be able to devote part of lesson time to works that have inspired you.

The claim that you can't study a particular work with this teacher because another of her students is studying the same work just makes no sense to me whatsoever. I guess further discussions are in order, but it seeing that some of what you were led to believe is not going to happen, it may be a difficult situation without becoming confrontational on the one hand and defensive on the other.

Do keep us informed of how this issue resolves.

Regards,

Thank you Bruce.

I have found an informal piano social group that is very pleasant indeed, but I want more.

For now, I will give my teacher the benefit of the doubt - until I speak to her tomorrow.

Ohhh, the iron fist in a velvet glove.

Seriously, I have always thought of the relationship between a teacher and a serious adult student as one of collaborator and musical guide. The teacher works with you, not upon you.

There is an organization in my area that serves this very purpose, the Adult Music Student Forum:

http://amsf.us/

On that site, they have a page of links to resources that might offer you something useful:

http://amsf.us/links.html

Good luck. It's frustrating to want to play for people but to have no place to play.

Deborah --

I agree with BruceD's advice. We have a well-established performance forum for amateur adults in the DC area that has musicales (in members' homes) or full recitals (usually in more formal settings) for all levels of expertise, and it seems to be flourishing. Here's a link to their home page: http://www.amsfperform.org/index.html It may give you some good ideas.

As for your teacher, the first step (which you sound prepared to take soon) is to talk to her and let her know how important it is for you to have a significant role in deciding what you're going to work on. If she continues to resist, change teachers. We spend a lot of time and energy trying to plumb the depths of the music we play. That's much easier to do if you love what you're playing -- the motivation to practice is built right in. Every teacher I've had since the 8th grade has understood that and encouraged me to tell them what I wanted to study. Of course we should be receptive to their suggestions too -- we retain their services because they know more than we do. But no one knows more than you do about what you like, and a good teacher will always find a way to harness your enthusiasm.

Good luck, and let us know how things progress.

Hey, Phil, great minds think alike.

Are you a member of AMSF? Have you played on any of the recitals? I've only done one so far, plus a nursing home gig.

The AMSF website looks well-organized and quite comprehensive. As one of our groups continues to grow and as the need may eventually arise to split it into more than one performance group, the AMSF website gives me some good ideas about possible directions to consider. Thanks for the link.

Regards,

I can't really comment on the rest of your post, but this part at least is something I am familiar with.

You can't expect a piano teacher to be familiar with every piece of music ever written, even from the standard repertoire. A teacher will be able to teach better pieces that he or she knows well. A decent teacher will be able to give some assistance with unfamiliar pieces, but not as much.

Many teachers are uncomfortable about helping their students with difficult pieces they don't know, because they are aware that they'll only give a limited service. I can very well understand why a teacher who mostly teaches young-ish children would be reluctant to offer assistance with a Prokofiev sonata. These pieces are mostly very challenging, and I suspect off the radar for all but the most prodigious of young students.

But if you make it clear to your teacher that you have realistic expectations of the service he or she can offer, then most likely your teacher will see things in a different light.

"For the most part, I'm pleased with what I am learning from my new teacher but I'm sorely disappointed by her focus on her young, school age students. My teacher enters her youngsters in competitions and has arranged master classes for them which I am invited to observe, not partcipate in. The upcoming recitals are practice performances for her competing students."

This part caught my eye - so unfair to sideline adults away from performing without asking. That's 3 big motivators and learning opportunities that you miss out on: competitions, recitals in preparation for comps and master classes. The fact that she doesnt want to double up with Waldstein makes me think that there is a recital that you will be asked to perform in - Is that the case?

Anyway often it's an assumption on the teacher's part that adults are delighted to refuse performing. Discussing it with her may bring a good result for you. Hope so.

The first adult I taught I put straight in the next recital, told her I wouldn't take no for an answer because it's an excellent opportunity to increase progress and skills.

PDad, i like the idea of piano coach, I went through a few tell-you-exactly-what-to-do piano teachers, there was some strangely condescending behaviour. Probably some teachers are confused by having a thinking adult on their hands. I remember one doing cutting and pasting for me in lesson time, and cutting through the some of the notes that I had made the previous week with her scissors, and discarding them. She wrote notes for me, thank you very much. I left at the next holiday break.

I can't help thinking that if you're an adult in search of a piano teacher, you'd do best to find one who specialises in teaching adults. Or, at least, has extensive experience of doing so. Teaching adults is not the same teaching children. For school/college teaching (in the UK) there are different training programmes and qualifications for teachers of adults and of children -- I don't see why private teaching should be different in principle.

I agree completely. Once a student reaches a certain age, they should have a significant say in what they're going to study whether they want to choose a piece because they love it(one of the best reasons) or want to use it for an amateur competition or any other reason. This seems to apply especially when one is a high level adult amateur. If the teacher feels a student's choice is highly inappropriate, a good explanation should be given. At the very least the teacher should give them a list of, for example, suitable Beethoven Sonatas and ask them which they'd prefer.

In NYC there are quite a few amateur piano organizations one can join if you're interesting in playing for others. From what I've heard, there is also a fairly extensive circuit of amateur piano competitions around the country, but I don't know the best way to get the details about them.

Oddly enough, I think that this very view is the problem. The children are being taken seriously, have masterclasses, are enrolled in competitions, have first pick of pieces with the adult allowed to have what is left over. The adult should be taken as seriously as the children. Or an assumption is being made that "adults are not the same as children" in a way that is not wanted.

But adults are not the same as children. It's up to teachers to decide how they deal with that fact. They can deal with it well or badly, but it doesn't change the fact.

In UK state schools you generally can't get a job teaching kids with an adult teaching qualification, nor vice versa. That's not to say that the needs of adults should be subservient to those of children, merely to recognize the different needs.

The problem is with how this might be perceived. In what way are adults not the same as children? The problem is that certain ideas abound about what adults are like and what they want, and it is these ideas that provide an immense amount of frustration for those who do not fit the picture. I've seen explanations on how adults should be taught by some experts on college teaching, and I would give any professor following those things a wide berth. But I could also recognize what they were saying.

Instead of focusing on adults and children, why not focus on what the art requires? What is it that we need to learn and develop? Follow that. Then we can get what we need.

That's a different kettle of fish. The first years in primary school are developmental, and you are involved in child psychology as much as you are in teaching. You have to know that a 5 year old does not yet have the concept of conservation, so that to perceive 5 glasses of water, he must fill 5 individual glasses with water and stand them side by side. At an older age you teach the subject and concept.

But what we are talking about here is an adult student who is not doing competitions, recitals or masterclasses. What is childlike about those things?

Changed my mind. I'm waiting with baited breath for what Deborah will have to say.

Quite so. And in teaching adults you are involved in adult psychology.

To be honest, I am surprised that what I originally wrote was even controversial. That an adult would do better with a teacher who is experienced at teaching adults, rather than teaching only children, seems almost self-evident to me. But perhaps I'm missing something.

Well, yes, I think I agree.

But don't you also think adults are a more heterogeneous population?

How many hobbyist adults want to work on Prokokiev? Or the Waldstein?

We have hobbyist adults with great talent, and some with very little chance of learning anything. We have serious adults, the same way. And everything in between.

On one point I'm inclined to disagree, I hope nobody takes this as a criticism.

Children are encouraged or even forced to do recitals as part of the learning process. I'm doubtful this is useful for the average adult (and I'm fairly sure the average adult is reluctant to take part.)

Now here's the harsh part. My take, adults probably shouldn't be doing recitals. Adults should be doing real performances, working gigs (paid or not.)

Why?

Even if there is such a thing as an average adult, what matters is the particular adult. And if the particular adult wants to take part in recitals, again
... why not?

[quote=TimRNow here's the harsh part. My take, adults probably shouldn't be doing recitals. Adults should be doing real performances, working gigs (paid or not.) [/quote]

But adults need the opportunity to practice performing in a less weighted situation. This is part of the whole picture of learning how to play an instrument. I maintain that performing encompasses a set of skills like any other discipline. These skills can (and must) be learned, at any level of playing.

Actually, I'm not sure what, in this case (the studio of a respected, recognized teacher of competitive, advanced students), is different between adults and school-aged kids (we may be talking more about teenagers than 7 year olds here).

Competitions...high-level recitals...master classes...this sounds to me like older school-aged students. And in this case, the adult student *chose* this teacher because they wanted exactly these opportunities for advancement. And is not getting them.

Unless the adult student it getting a substantial discount it sounds to me like she is paying the same amount of money for substantially less opportunity.

_Unless_ the teacher feels she is not ready to participate in competitions and master classes. Which is fine but the teacher needs to say that. As an adult student, I'd rather hear *that* than be left to assume that I was given less opportunity than the school-aged kids because the teacher assumed they would be going on to major in music and I wasn't.

Well the adult in question has yet to ask, it seems to me!
SO perhaps this teacher is not as resistant as she sounds.
I will add that my own teacher's experience was that not a single adult student had agreed to participate in recitals in the past, so the teacher stopped asking. That does not mean that an interested student could not ask to participate.
Having said this, if the teacher agrees (which they usually do unless the student in question is not likely to be prepared enough), then you run into the problem of having to perform in the company of a much younger group. That often creates added insecurity and the adult student will ponder for days whether he or she should be last, in the middle, or in the beginning.. whether he or she should be introduced differently etc.. The best option is to be involved with a peer group as was suggested and to search for performance / competition opportunities. Now if the teacher refuses to assist with preparation for those, that would be completely unacceptable..

It is a bit weird to be the lone adult on a concert with a bunch of little kids. But can't one just look at that as part of the challenge?

And isn't it good for the kids to see that adults are interested in playing, and that it's not just something their parents are torturing them with?

As a returning to the piano adult beginner piano student, I DID ask my teacher if I could participate in the recitals because I wasn't asked. But I felt I would be missing an important learning opportunity. Yes, at first I felt "weird" being the only adult among elementary through high school students, but I didn't care about that.

Actually there was no real problem of how to introduce the one adult among the young people during the recital. My teacher put us in the order of our playing level. So I actually played second after an elementary school-aged girl who was less-experienced than I was. We were treated all the same. The most advanced student played last and the very last performer was my teacher.

That is how I looked at it - I had to have a challenge for myself in order to accomplish the goals I had set out for myself, which I had told my teacher up front. I had the goal of studying the piano seriously and advancing through the repertoire as far as I could go and acquiring the technique that would allow me to do so.

And yes, it is good for young people to see that piano can be a lifelong pursuit at a high level regardless of whether one majors in an instrument or goes on to teach/perform. That even as "amateurs" one can pursue something in a serious way and gain enjoyment from that.