Stupid question perhaps. Maybbe I should re-phrase it: Which experiences do amateur pianists have when comes to improving the techinque and mastering new music after reaching the age of 50, 55 or 60?

I'm 59 now, can play quite a few pieces, but would like to learn more and be able to play my repertoire even better. Do you consider this mission impossible?

No.

Go ahead and try it!

Certainly pianists learn new pieces at all ages. A few years ago, I was tuning for one of my customers who had just recently performed Ellington's Sacred Concert with her big band and a senior church choir. She pulled out the music, opened it to a section where there was absolutely nothing written, and said in her curt manner, "Look at that! I had to listen to the recording over and over, to figure out what to play!" I looked at it for a while, thought about it, and said, "I can tell, you just loved learning this music!" She beamed!

Later, I saw her after a concert, and she told me she was in her 80's.

A few months later, I was having dinner with the Dave Brubeck Quartet, and I told Dave this story. I added, "Isn't it great that music keeps you so interested that you still want to learn new things when you are in your eighties!" He beamed at that, and I remembered, he is the same age!

If it's "mission impossible" then I'm benightedly engaged in it. However, my teacher thinks otherwise and told me just last week that I'm playing more difficult repertoire better now than what and how I played when I started with her three years ago. And, by the way, I surpass the age categories you listed. So there!

Cheers!

What are you currently working on Bruce?

Daniel

Most recent (since this summer) and current* repertoire include :

Rachmaninoff : Preludes Op 23, Nos 3, 4, and 6*.
Chopin : Polonaise, Op 26, No 1;
- Impromptus, Opp 29*, 51 and 66*;
- Etudes, Op. 25 Nos 1, 3 (not completed) and 5*
Granados : Spanish Dances, Op 12, Nos 2* and 7* (just starting)
Mozart : Piano Trio in E major, KV542*
Beethoven : Piano Trio No 4 in B-flat major, Op. 11*
The second rehearsal of the Mozart (movements 1 and 2) and Beethoven (movement 1) takes place tomorrow.

Regards,

Holy crow, Rocket, you gave me a scare. You should have quoted it so it came out this way:

Rather than the way I read it (looking at subject line)

Piano Trios? Do you get to rehearse / play with a cellist and a violinist? (probably silly question!).
I have been listening to a gorgeous recording of the Arensky Trio in D minor (Op.32) and Tchaikovsky A minor (Op. 50) in a recording with Cardenes, Solow and Golabek. Highly recommended.

As for age, well 60 is the new 40 ..
A family member amateur pianist and organist resumed playing only after he retired at the age of 64. He is now 80 and his playing has sky-rocketed to performance levels in the past 5 years. He is very much in demand to play in the local churches and cathedrals (lives in Europe). In fact he just got an invitation to play a recently restored historic organ somewhere in Southern Germany. Of course he practices daily for hours and plays a service or two every sunday. So if you are willing to put in the effort, you will undoubtedly improve.

Yes, I'm rehearsing with a violinist I worked with last year and now a cellist, wanting to perform chamber music, has joined us. Performance(s) will ultimately be determined on how well we can work together, but, initially, it's great fun.


My philosophy!

Regards,

I was hoping it was the new 50, but hey, that's even better!

You should see this movie if you get a chance:

http://theycametoplay.com/

It's a documentary about the Cliburn amateur competition.

(Warning: link plays music, so turn volume down if you're at work.)

Point is: a large number of the competitors are well over the age of 60, and they are still seriously practicing and learning.

I started playing again at age 50 after a hiatus of 25-30 years. I'm now 55, and my playing has improved dramatically in every way. I don't know what will happen from now on out, but I don't see why you can't improve. I played pieces from Debussy's Estampes, Scarlatti Sonatas, and a Liszt selection in recital recently. I couldn't have done that 5, or even 2, years ago!

seems like many of the best pianists are quite up in years.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I don't think it's a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

I'm not a teacher but I think pianists have varying degrees of potential ability. If you are in your sixties (as I am) and you are still quite far from reaching your maximum potential, then I can't see any reason for not making further progress. If, on the other hand, you have been at a plateau for many years, then further progress seems unlikely.

I have a feeling that I "plateaued" in my late forties or fifties. In spite of continued effort, the pieces that were too difficult back then (e.g., the Handel Variations of Brahms) are still too difficult even though I now have more time available for practice. It's some consolation to me that my playing hasn't gotten worse.

My eyes give me more trouble these days but I think my dexterity is unimpaired. I have noticed that memorizing music is much more difficult for me now.

But you don't really know what your maximum potential is. You may have been at a plateau for years, but still be not playing to your maximum potential.

Besides, "improve" encompasses a lot of things! Many aspects of my playing have improved through my fifties, and I've been playing since I was a small child, and accompanying professionally for years. I don't really see any reason why that improvement needs to stop when I hit 60, unless some physical thing like arthritis hits.

currawong's statement that "Improve, encompasses a lot of things" is important. I am 67 and am starting to get some arthritis in some of my fingers. As a result, I probably will not improve as far as difficult finger twisting pieces go. However, I believe I have greatly improved and continue to improve in my musicianship, interpretations, expressiveness, improvisation, polish and all the other parts of playing that can make music more beautiful and fulfilling.

I am not discouraged about my future decreasing technical ability. There are plenty of areas to improve and I intend to work on those.

I'm still improving, and I'm sixty-five. Each year, over the past five or six years, I have successfully learned repertoire that is progressively more difficult. At some point I'm sure I will start to decline, but there will still be lots of progressively less difficult music that will be enjoyable and well worth learning. I see no reason at all to hang it up.

Tomasino

I think 63 is much better than 60 Piano-wise and other wise -

Cathy

58 and going strong. I took my last piano lesson when I was 18. I restarted 5 years ago and my progress has sky rocketed. I think age adds both depth to interpretation and a fully engrained work ethic.


It's not going to be in my area and Netflix doesn't have it yet.

Yes, most definitely. I'm living
proof of it.

But as I implied in another
of your threads, you'll have
to chuck those salon pieces
and other miniatures you've
been playing and dig right into
the big stuff, the stuff that
you'd be playing if you were
to improve big-time, as you
seem to be saying you want to do.
If you want to just keep playing the
type of pieces you've been playing
and keep polishing them, then
you can just do what you've been
doing without changing anything.
But if you want more, then you'll
have to play more challenging
stuff, say, the first or third
movements of either of the Chopin
concertos.

You're not going to improve by
continuing to play things you
can handle easily. Like an
athlete, you'll have to push
yourself if you want to improve,
and that means playing big-time
stuff, not salon pieces.

For example, I just dug into
the Chopin op. 14, with only
below average talent and sketchy
instruction as a child. This
is one of the most difficult pieces
in the repertoire, and the book
says I could not even dream of
playing it, but after years of
brutal, repetitive effort I
can play it so that someone
familiar with the piece would
recognize it.

Note that if you do this, you'll
need a digital piano, and you've
got to be willing to spend many years
working up a difficult piece,
because if you're asking this question,
then you don't have sufficient
talent to work up big-time stuff
fast, like a conservatory player
can. If you try to do that, you'll
burn yourself out big-time.
You'll need to start on a big
concerto at a rate of only
a few measures per day initially.
Anything more than that and you'll
fry your nerves on the difficult
material. Only after you've
developed sufficient strength
and experience can you increase
the pace to, say, a page a day,
and so forth.

Is that the same one that's been stuck at "75% speed" for years now?



Yeah, I'd love to see someone play Rach 3 on a digital and get through it without breaking keys and/or knocking the thing over. I think a digital is a good second instrument, but it's plain silly to suggest that it's the only thing you need.

well, i don't know about the digital piano Gyro, but I do know practice make perfect .. or nearly so.

i've improved a lot these last couple years in spite of pretty extensive cancer treatments, not much practice time, and advancing years.. 53 and 54.

Speaking of treatments, how are you doing these days?

In my experience the problem is not that I don't make improvement or learn new things in middle age -- the problem is that it's so slow. I can still remember piano pieces I learned as a kid, and which seemed to take a matter of hours. Now it takes me an hour to memorize one bar of music (literally an hour, and it isn't getting any quicker). I have to spend a lot of time figuring out working fingerings, when in my youth I would just throw my fingers in the right general direction and they would usually land where I wanted.

In one sense it's probably better for people who start playing the piano from scratch in their fifties: they at least don't have their younger selves to compare themselves unfavourably to.

I can't speak from experience since I'm rather young (32), but I do recall my father (above 70) who mentions that for any intelectual thing (for example anything to do with computer) he has to write it down, otherwise he will forget.

If technique is an issue for some older people (I hope the term older people does not insult, cause I certainly wouldn't want that), maybe other areas of music might be more interesting? Like composing pieces that one CAN play (since it's theirs, it will be easier)? Of course one can't expect to write like Chopin or Rach, heck nobody should expect that, but still the pleasure might double/triple/multiple if you play your own pieces.

(This is what I did when I was really young (around 7-ish) and all I had in front of me was Czerny (thus my dislike of the guy... :D). I just decided that I preffered my own works and kept composing, while advancing my technique (somewhat), my own pieces! I still love some of my young ones, no matter how naive and silly they may seem now).

Just an idea I guess...

Kevin: Would provided fingering help? Also would analytical notes on the score help (for example, my students are always helped when I comment on the repetitions, how simmilar things are in some places, etc, so that it's easier for them to grasp the more general notion of the piece)?

You're right, Currawong. Improvement can take many forms. Perhaps there has been a qualitative improvement in my playing. I'm not sure I could say in what way.

What I had in mind by improving was advancing to the more difficult works in the piano literature. For the past decade I have been playing mostly Bach, Haydn, Mozart, early Beethoven, and the easier works of Schubert, Mendelssohn, and Brahms. But my attempts to play the "big" pieces respectably (Appassionata, Waldstein, Wanderer Fantasy, Carnaval, etc.) invariably hit a wall.

For example, I worked for a long time on Beethoven's Tempest Sonata. I started practicing very slowly and carefully, increasing the tempo by small increments only when I could play a movement with no more than a couple of mistakes per page. But at some point well before I attained what might be regarded as a suitable tempo I simply couldn't avoid turning the whole thing into an utter hash of wrong notes. Would you say that I had tried to exceed my maximum potential?

Copake, I don't know your background so this may be completely off. I've had virtually no training in piano, and was self-taught as a teen. Almost 40 years later I got a piano, and had maybe 6 lessons, but had also started studying another instrument. By learning different ways of doing things or approaching them, what I was able to do, and how well, took a sharp upswing. The focus shifts from advancing to harder pieces, to advancing in approach and technique - which then lets the harder pieces fly.

Some of the things that brought me forward on the piano will seem simplistic to anyone who has had years of formal lessons. Examples: * hands closed for 5 note spans, and open for octave spans - rather than in a stiffer readiness-for-anything stance. * being aware that from point a to point b I am covering C4 to A4, preparing and placing my hand there, then from point b to c I am covering a different area, and preparing that the same way - that had a significant effect on accuracy, speed, and less tension. In turn I was able to play more difficult pieces which sounded better. Without a teacher I can't get technical help, but even this made a significant change.

A while back a friend who is a professional musician told me that he always studies the rhythm before anything else. Switching my approach to this also improved what I could do. I think it's this kind of thing which (if you don't have it) can let you progress more than if you play harder music, approaching it as you have always done.

For my part, I'm happy for _any_ part of the process I would have to follow myself to be done by someone else. Well, short of pressing the actual keys But in practice I find that analysis of a piece contributes only a little to my ability to remember it. Sadly.

Sorry! I realized that later, and was going to change it, but hey, a little adrenalin rush is good every now and then.

"I'm 59 now, can play quite a few pieces, but would like to learn more and be able to play my repertoire even better. Do you consider this mission impossible?"

I know people who are doing it. As it happens, most of the people I know these days are on the wrong side of fifty.

There are things I can't do anymore (without paying the price physically), but I'm glad that continuing to learn is still possible. Research studies indicate that keeping the mind active staves off senility. Your mind may not effortlessly sponge up everything that comes its way, the way a young child's does, but making the effort to keep it active does improve memory retention and keeps the "thinker" alive.

Children experience frustrations too; then comes the challenge of trying to learn during the hormone storm of adolescence; then come the can't-find-a-minute-to-practice years... some of the barriers are out of the path at this time of life. I say, go as far as you can.

Improve? Well, I certainly don't think I can get much worse, which leaves only two directions, straight ahead and up.

Gyro's laughing.

The best think about turning 60 is you become a...
sexygenarian.

Come on, PLUS, surely you can do better than that!

I'm really happy to hear so many 50's and 60's who say they are continuing to improve. It's very inspiring.

Clearly my comments are not scientific, just another old guy who, although over 60, is still improving my piano playing. I know that I play better today than I did when I was 20 or 40 or even 50. That's in spite of arthritis in my fingers! There is no reason one cannot continue to improve as long as one is physically and mentally able!

And, of course, there's no reason to think one has to scrap all the developmental materials and jump into years of "grueling" work to learn how to play a piece at 75t% speed bar-by-bar. Play what you like and enjoy it!

Ed

I restarted a year ago at 59, having stopped lessons at around age 12. I would definitely say I have improved a lot in the past year. Mind you, that means I'm about to move beyond Grade 2 material into Grade 3 materials, not the major works that you're contemplating. I find that I now have a lot more patience and will to practice than I did as a kid. I still work full-time, so don't have much more than a hour a day for the piano, and it's not unusual for me to spend that hour practicing scales and Hanon. I'm also happy to repeat the same problematic measure over and over two dozen times it I have to. When I do take an hour to work on repertoire, I do notice that the time devoted to technique has made a difference.

I have the same problem as another poster with memorization, however. I used to have a wonderful memory as a kid. Can't retain a page of music for more than a day anymore, unless it was a piece I played back in the day, and even those are getting iffy.

Some have an incandescent thirst for knowledge that travels with them for the extent of their lives. Providing this is coupled with a zest for the discovery tour, no limitations through value assumptions and no physical restrictions, there is no reason why the journey would not be progressive 'til death.

Hello everyone,

Once again thanks for many interesting thoughts.

Personally I believe that it is possible to improve even at higher ages. I depends, of course, on many factors like your present level, and the time available as well as the ambitions.

I have made a few actions the last couple of years which seem to pay off:
- Memorising as much as possible of the music I play
- Concentrating the effort on a limited (not too small) repertoire.
- Splitting up the task when studying difficult sections (Practicing 8, 4 or maybe just 1 or 2 bars at a time).
- Being much more consistent with details (e.g. ornaments)
- Being much more consistent with fingering.

Indeed this has lifted my ability somewhat, but I still think there is more to gain. What I don't do is using finger exercises like Hanon or similar. Maybe I should. What do you think? Other good ideas?

I am around your age, and all I can say is that Hanon and Dohnanyi have really helped me, and there's no end yet in sight in what that exercise regime will do for me. But then, I was very much in need of that kind of work since I'd never done much of it in the past. You may not need it as much.

One other thing I think has helped me improve my playing is playing Bach and Scarlatti with no pedal at all, and doing some every day.

I'm 53, and have only seriously returned to piano in the past several years after being mostly disengaged from it since I was a teenager. (I had brief periods of trying to reconnect with piano during that long lapse, but they didn't take. )

Count me among those who are quite satisfied with their progress. I think that advancement is obviously possible with advancing age, but agree with Ganddalf that it's dependent on certain factors.

While I did revisit Hanon briefly on the occasions when I was back at the piano after a hiatus of months, years or even a decade, I don't do any kind of purely technical exercises at all. I have no plans to start, but I'm open-minded about it, too; others here whose opinions I respect highly do find value in them.

Regarding such exercises, I have written in the past that "if you need them, they will benefit you; if they benefit you, then you needed them." I still stand by that, though I do recognize that we may not know if we need them. Nor can we really know the difference between the progress we make if we don't do technical exercises versus if we do (and vice versa); there's no control group for such an experiment!

I can't imagine any real downside to technical exercises, though even in retirement none of us has unlimited time to devote to our daily practice. We all have to prioritize and structure our routines accordingly if we want to use our time profitably and productively; the older we get, the more important that becomes.

Steven

I am a 56 yr old re-starter. Never made it past intermediate stage pieces. After my kid's moved on, I took over their lessons. For me, there is no way that I could have progressed without a teacher, and I am very much a "get a book, do-it-yourself" kind of guy.
I am to the point now where I can play the vast majority of piano literature, taking on pieces that were previously beyond my realm.
As mature adults, our biggest assets are patience, perserverence and perspective.

There's a possibly apocryphal story about Pablo Casals - when asked by an interviewer why, at the age of 92, did he still feel the need to practice for several hours every day, Casals replied, "I'm beginning to see some improvement."

I think it is certainly possible to improve, only maybe at a somewhat slower speed than at 20 for example...
Don't give up!

Not at all. I found that after a 35 year hiatus, I was ever more ready to put in the practice. Hey, I'm not chasing boys anymore, I don't work, and I love being home. I have a ton more self-discipline and time now now than I did when playing as a teenager - I rushed thru everything, disappointing my teacher and fooling myself. I'm so glad I was able to retrieve all my old music, plus a friend mailed me a ton more from a yard sale.

Have at it and enjoy.

Your "mission" is not impossible at all. After 60 it is an easy ride, your speed improves quite considerably, you don`t have to make any effort at all, all is done for you, just let yourself go...............DOWNHILL TO THE GRAVE FAST!!!!

Just to add my penny and a half as another adult restarter, in my case age 58. Rest assured you can and no doubt will improve if you put in the time. I'm now playing music I'd never have been able to play when I was a kid taking lessons, and it's only been a year and a half.

My sight reading is vastly improved and more importantly as far as I'm concerned, my technique is much better. I'll also add, for what it's worth, this is all without benefit of a teacher.

I'm pushing 60 as I said, but I just don't feel old, certainly not in the cognitive realm. Barring something unfortunate, and of course one never knows life being what it is, I have every expectation of continued improvement. The day I feel I can't get any better will be the day I consider hanging it up, as much of the enjoyment I derive has to do with the challenge the piano provides.

This post has been reported, so for the benefit all our members, I'd like to take a moment to state what I thought would be obvious to anyone over the age of 8:

It is *NEVER* funny, amusing, or appropriate to joke about the death of someone on an internet forum, regardless of age, reputation, or context.

No further comment on Carldee's reply is necessary and will be deleted.

No further comment on this reply is necessary and will be deleted.

I played well enough as a teenager to get into a major conservatory as a piano performance major. I was immature, young and reckless. I started a second instrument out of pure curiosity (harp). Low and behold, I had a "knack" that was natural. I had a very successful career with the harp, management with Columbia Artists in NYC and lots of great concerts and recitals. Unfortunately, for physical health reasons, I had to end that part of my life July 3rd, 2006. The harp is with a good friend and harpist. After a year, I had to find some outlet for my musical soul. Tried guitar......didn't work. 2 years ago, I played an old upright piano at a friends house for a weekend. I wondered, would it come back? Bought a good digital piano, dug out the dusty music and started. End of story, my partner bought me a gorgeous Yamaha Grand with a great sound. Started with a great teacher at the University of Texas, and practiced and pushed. I now can play for my great enjoyment and she thinks I am making great progress.. Currently working on: Chopin Ballade #1, Finished Schubert Impromptus op. 90 and working on some Debussy Preludes to record on a CD. Life is good................I am 59. Jim

I think I'm going to repeat this gem to myself daily for encouragement.

I'm 62 and just recently retired. Trying to establish a daily practice routine. Earned a MM in piano performance when I was 26, taught piano for four years, and since then have been playing as a hobby. Looking forward to learning and recording several new works. Because I read well, I find that I learn quickly. Now its just a matter of discipline. I have no doubt that I will improve - but if not - who cares? I'm having a great time !

[quote=Kreisler
No further comment on this reply is necessary and will be deleted. [/quote]

Just wondering if the arbitrary power to delete posts in an arrogant and semi-dictatorial manner while completely forbidding commentary/questioning of such action is not worse than the original offense?

JF

+1
Richard (65yo)

Okay, I'll allow comments. I was simply responding to the desires of some who reported the post and didn't want to see this discussion stray from the original topic.

I was just trying to avoid what happens so often - something goes bad in a topic, and the whole thing gets derailed with meta-discussion on board policy, moderator powers, ethics, etc...

I guess I failed.

I don't think you failed at all, just trying to be sensitive to to everyone and thank you for caring.
The post could certainly be judged as tasteless but could also be taken as a kinda funny side of the topic.
A little over the top but I'd like to think it was made with tongue in cheek.
Richard

Thanks. It gets tough sometimes. I can pretty much expect criticism no matter what I do. I get as many complaints for being too heavy-handed with moderation as I do for going too easy on people. Everybody has a different opinion...

Originally, I was going to comment on the offending post ... but decided that it spoke for itself and needn't be dignified with an acknowledgement. I thought you made the right decision in the first place here, Kreisler.

Steven

"I can pretty much expect criticism no matter what I do."

Don't I know that one!

I don't mind so much if carldee wants to be edgy (we have an Ignore feature if it gets bad enough--- and I'm not afraid to use it), but saving the topic from going into a death spiral over a juvenile remark was worth a try. We've certainly tried it the other way. Moderation saves us from being immoderate. If a person wants to go over the edge, it's kind of up to them; if they drag the whole topic over...

Not easy to moderate. The Internet's a messy place, to state the obvious. I think you do a great job Kreisler. But you're right, whatever you do will probably invite criticism.

I also thought the comment spoke for itself. My thought process when I see something that tasteless and juvenile is usually, "Man, this guy's a moron and I'm going to point it out to him (natually in a very clever way so all the other sympatico members can see what a smart guy I am.)

This first impulse is generally followed by a pang of painful self-awareness along the lines of "Man, you're 58 years old. Haven't you matured out of the need to impress a bunch of strangers in an Internet forum? The original poster already knows he's a moron on some level, why do you want to cause him additional pain?"

Not easy being me, as you can see. :>)

Kreisler You do an excellent job as a moderator (in my opinion). Bear in mind the number of times you feel the need to intercede is rather small in relation to the numbers of posts on the forum. As our society moves more and more into internet space for almost everything, new manners and guidelines will always be needed. Most of us know when a potential problem develops in a thread due to some shallow or immature responses, but someone needs to keep an eye out. Some problems on the internet can become quite dangerous and legally troubling. You do a good job. Thank you. Jim

In my experience on this forum, Kreisler's presence as a moderator is all but invisible; the very few times he intervenes publicly has always seemed to me quite justified.

It must be a thankless* task, and I'm glad he is doing it as well as he does!

*So, Thank you!

Regards,

I'm 56, and still improving.

But I started in my 50's, so I'm still getting beginner gains. And I've been a musician all my life (brass and voice) so I wasn't starting from scratch.

Memory is a problem. Other than that, I'm not seeing a lot of age handicap yet. We'll see how far I get. I have no desire to play the extremely difficult Rach type stuff; I want to play simpler stuff fluently and expressively, and i expect to get there in the next couple of years.

And if not, well, there was nothing worth watching on tv anyway.

Kreisler's cool, and his contributions here are always of value. Sometimes he can illuminate aspects of piano playing and repertoire that I never thought of. Good on him.

Politically, I suspect we're probably miles and miles apart, but this is after all a piano forum, so no concern there.

Yet funnily, I didn't take the 'outrageous' post earlier in the thread with much more than a grain of salt. Difficult for me to see what the fuss was about, but perhaps I wasn't reading much into it. Obviously others were, I guess I just missed out on that one.

Oh what a teacup these moderators navigate!

On the original topic, I think about this often because I want to improve a lot, and worry that I'll be limited, due to age.

In general we tend to overestimate our mental decline. When we forget a name we think "Oh, I'm getting old!" But when we were younger we forgot names, too. We just didn't think about it as much.

As you can see in the blog in my signature, I've plugged away at sight-reading for 1-2 hours per day for almost two years now, and still have a long way to go. You might think this slow progress is due to my age (56). But I worked on sight-reading when I was 35, and had just as much trouble. I gave up, even.

I recently memorized the Bach 2-part invention (#8 in F), which I'd memorized as a teenager (and forgotten, of course). I'd love to know how long it took me back then, but I bet it didn't take me much longer at this age.

It's hard to know how much I can improve, but it really doesn't matter, because I'm going to keep trying anyway.

>>>Is it possible to improve beyond 60 years' age?

what is age? just numbers, men is supposed to live around 150 years so man you 're still in your teens Where there is a will a way will be found.

I just retired on August 1st and at 65. I have been looking forward to this new beginning/adventure with learning piano in my retired years. I am excited about the possibility of a year from now, 2 years from now, etc, to look back at what I have accompished and all that lays in the time to come. Why not? My health and attitude is pretty durn good - Dijango played with a couple fingers and Willy is still rolling at 75. I am expecting with a lot of piano enjoyment my fingers will stay flexable longer and my mind will remain sharper many more years than if I did nothing in comparison. It is wonderful to be in this time of my life and, having a very supportive spouse adds to the pleasure, not to mention the terrific community here in the Piano Forum - knowledge and fellowship. Thanks for the space. Richard

Congratulations on your retirement Richard! I'm terribly jealous. If I could afford it, I'd retire tomorrow and practice all day long. I was off from work yesterday and did just that. By the end of the day I felt utterly sated, happy and calm.

Thanks Deborah, It's an exciting time to be alive for me. My Honey has 2 years to go to join me but she is very supportive as I mentioned.
Richard

I am going to be (groan) 73 in 2 months. I became interested in the Amateur Competitions that have been springing up all over. I now have a little more than an hour memorized and can draw on as I add new things. I really need a goal and a competition is just the ticket for me. I have learned SO much in the last 3 years. Currently have a video on the Cliburn Youtube Amateur Competition. Equitater, my moniker.

Hey! Your Chopin Op. 9 No. 3 was better than some professional performances, in my opinion. Nice work!

It's worth understanding that as neurons die (as we get older) neighbour neurons (who already have their own muscle fibers) have to take on their muscle fibers - a 'He Ain't Heavy' kinda thing. The overloading is what makes Motor-Neuron disease eventually debilitating.

Good inspiration Musica71, thanks for an upbeat senior note.
Richard

musica 71, very nice! Your performance is one of the better ones I've seen in that group.

Hi guys, I'm new here and I'm kind of feeling overwhelmed at having to read 73 posts on this thread, so I'll just say what my own experience is.

I'm 62, and I can honestly say that I'm getting more out of the piano than I ever have before. I feel like I've finally learned how to practice, using a method that works for me.

It also helps me enormously that I don't have a teacher. I can do exactly the pieces I want, and I can spend as much or as little time as I want on each piece. Of course I do make use of all the advice my teachers have given me over the years.

Incidentally, I think the thing that's caused the most improvement for me is that I sang with an a cappella Renaissance choir for about ten years. Even though I didn't play the piano much during that period, it really sharpened my awareness of phrasing and musicality in general. I now at least know how to make the individual voices in a piece "sing", and how to listen to what I'm playing. This is a great help especially in Bach.

I am somewhat surprised at the implication that having a teacher means you can't play what you want to play. Surely that varies from teacher to teacher and the ideal situation would be to find a good teacher who does let you play what you want to play.

I find that a good teacher at this stage of my life works more as a coach and collaborator rather than a technical disciplinarian or a repertoire dictator. I and my teacher spend lesson times discussing interpretive directions and alternatives to my initial play-throughs, but, with her experience, she listens better than I and hears what I sometimes do not. While I feel that a lifetime of listening to music and a certain "musical sense" would allow me to work well independently, I also find my teacher's suggestions and advice invaluable, they save me time and effort and the collaborative spirit of my lessons is something that I would sorely miss were I not studying with her.

Regards,

THERE!!!! -- found you.
Hi, equitater -- I just joined and saw people talking about you, so I knew I'd find you pretty soon.

I can just say that I HOPE it's possible to improve beyond 60, because I'm the same age as you.

The answer, by the way, is absolutely yes. There might be some aspects that become harder, like memorization and maybe (depending on a lot of things) some fingerwork. But you can keep improving on most aspects almost as long as you keep living.
P.S. I've been improving all the way up to 59, and I don't intend to stop.

I am sixty-two and I consider my playing has improved out of sight over the last year or two. I have to concede, however, that this may be simply due to my playing more because I no longer work every day. What I do find interesting is the mental aspect - how players' minds change with age. Some, perhaps most, confirm the musical loves of earlier years and restrict their remaining time to a progressively intense and specialised study of them. A few others, like me, seem to go completely berserk and extend their musical landscape and language in all directions. There is no right or wrong about it but it is just something I have noticed in people beyond middle-age. The narrowing group is much larger than the broadening one.

I'm 63. In the last 12 months I've greatly improved sight reading, rhythm, ear training, and physical skills (crossover, reach, etc.)

So far, I'm still on a roll. Someday I'll peak and decline, but I think it will be at least 10-20 years from now. Perhaps later I'll shop for a heavenly grand piano!

Hop

Good to hear that other pianists around my age consider continued improvement to be possible. It is a bit difficult to be objective, but I believe that I also have improved during the last 10 years.

In fact I find it easier to memorise music today than 10 or 20 years ago, and this is even true for 20th century music where tonality is often hard to make out.

Overcoming technical difficulties is an increasing obstacle, though. I think I need to practice more now than earlier to master difficult sequences.

I don't have a teacher. Living in a rural region I have to travel quite some distance to find one. But maybe it is worth it.

You say: "Overcoming technical
difficulties is an increasing
obstacle," as though this is
something new that has only
appeared as you've grown older.
But this is not a new thing at all.
Technical difficulties--specifically,
being able to hit the right notes
in the right time at tempo--
in fact, are always the number
one problem in playing, from the
earliest stages to the most
advanced. What keeps you from
sitting down and playing, say,
the first or third movement of
either Chopin concerto? Tone
production is not the problem;
you can produce great tone if
you limit yourself to just a few
notes at a time. Nor is artistry;
everyone knows what he'd like
to sound like.

The reason you can't play difficult
pieces like this is that you
can't hit all the notes at tempo,
that is, the technical difficulties
are too great. And the reason
that the technical difficulties
are too great is that you do
not have enough strength to hit
all the notes at tempo. And
the way you develop such strength
is by practice, hard, repetitive
practice, in order to "master
difficult sequences." But this
is not something new that you have
to do "more now than earlier." This
is always the number one problem
in playing, and always has been,
and always will be.

My main objection to practice a piano concerto is the fact that want to prioritise music for public performance. Not on big scale, but local, small town scenes. Most frequently I participate in concerts together with other musicians, most frequently a choir, and I often serve as an accompagnist. During such events I also often play a solo, most often a piece of 3 - 7 minutes. I have to be able to learn new music to play along with the other musicians (sometimes even venturing into non-classical or cross-over styles).

My dream would be to perform chamber music by e.g. Schubert, Mendelsohn or Brahms together with a small group of string musicians. The closest I have got so far is performing song cycles of Schubert with a vocal soloist.

I am young, and have not yet experienced this, but I am sure you can still improve beyond 60 years' age. The memory might get worse over time, but with good memorsation techinques it won't be a big problem, and if you're able to learn sight reading it will barely be a problem at all. Expecially not when improvising.

Also, my piano teacher hataught a 60 years old woman how to play blues.

Good luck!

Even if were true that one can't improve after a certain age, why can't one just enjoy playing the piano at whatever level you're at?

I don't think I ever think about improving(not the same as saying I wouldn't like to). I have enough great music at my present level to last 100 years.

My sensitivity to phrasing, the mood of the piece, ability to play without rushing have all improved with time and age (yes, I'm 60).

Memory suffered when I developed apnea. Although I don't fit the typical apnea profile, I got moderate apnea and my blood oxygen dropped low enough at night that my brain suffered deprivation. It's not uncommon at our age.

Although I'm in treatment (cpap), the ability to memorize is the last thing to return. I don't care if I can't memorize Chopin or Tchereprin any longer. I'm not on the performance stage like in youth, and that's fine too. At this age most of us are support/accompanists for soloists, or behind the scenes accompanists who can read from music.