I know that the value of Czerny's pedadgogical works is debated (to say the least), and I want to avoid that here. However, I saw a YouTube performance of number 41 from The Art of Finger Dexterity, and I really liked the piece.

Can people here please comment on the musical, rather than pedagogical, value of Czerny, and perhaps recommend some pieces that are worth studying for performance?

I heard Kuerti has perform Czerny's Sonata No.1 a long time ago. I think it had 5 movements and was interesting. Don't know if it's worthy of studying for performance. That would be up to you.

Josef Lhévinne often played the Ab octave study from Art of Finger Dexterity (#33) as an encore. His octaves were legendary, so you can imagine what a helluva show that must have been! Too bad he didn't record it...

Me thinks that's just about it though.. Higher musical value than Hannon for sure.. But then Czerny plateaus right around where Clementi starts..

On my local radio station I heard a sonata for piano duet by Czerny that I thought was quite good.

Found a link for a YT performance... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix9JdlnGT...PL&index=27

Yeh, and then Clementi plateaus right around where Schuman's Album für die Jugend starts.

He was actually very creative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Carl_Czerny

I actually do play all his exercises on a daily basis (together with Hanon) and have found them useful. However, I have to admit that I am less familiar with his more musical works (rather than pedagogical)...

The Wikipedia article has his Duo Concertante , which I find very nice. I hope to find the score!

CA

I thought he wrote 100's of excercises??

I love Czerny's music. A CD I have of the complete Op. 740 is easily in my Top 5 albums.

I also recommend the Toccata, Op. 92, which anticipates the Romantic "tocaatas" in style. (Sadly, I don't know of more than one recording of it, so I have to play it myself)

His opera fantasies are a bit uncreative, but still nice to listen to if you don't want all the fire of Liszt.

On an extramusical note, Czerny was an ailurophile.

Steven

DO you mean to say that someone actually wrote a biography of Czerny including his interest in cats and all??

I would be surprised if there even is a biography of Czerny. (Dang, the first English-language biography of Hummel was published a mere two years ago.) I guess this detail of his personal life, though widely known, could be apocryphal; Grove's doesn't mention it, though the mini-bio at Hyperion Records does:


Steven

Well I am gaining new respect for Czerny now. I think that cats are magnificent creatures. Love their aggressive side.

Czerny wrote his own autobiography, Erinnerungen aus meinem Leben, which is no longer in print, but which is the source of most of the stuff we know about Czerny today. (Dunno about the cat thing, though; I think that was just Harold Schonberg being funny in The Great Pianists)

Back to the music, though, if you get a chance, his second symphony is quite an interesting listen.

If you compare the score of Czerny's toccata with Schumann's, it will be obvious that Schumann must have known Czerny's work quite well.

Steven is our resident cat person here.

But don't forget pet rats. They are incredibly intelligent animals, awesomely clean (they even smell good), and very loyal and loving. I had several pet rats as a boy and will never forget their companionship.

A public service announcement from your resident 'rat' person.

Eeeewww. No rat person here. To each his own!

Cheers!

Yeah, I think I didn't express myself correctly, I meant I go through all his exercises in cycles and I play SOME every day until the cycle is completed again....

I read he wrote studies three at a time, going from page to page to page, letting the ink dry on the pages he had just written while writing the next one.

I know that Schumann's piece is revered as occupying a sort of ne plus ultra technical niche, but Czerny's looks significantly harder to me! My impression (on paper, anyway) is that the types of double-note figures exploited in the Czerny toccata would be more challenging to me.


I treasure cats and dogs equally, but I had great experiences with pet rodents as a kid, too. I love birds and am curious about ferrets as well, but with multiple cats and a dog ... it won't be happening anytime soon.

Here in the suburbs, certain types of livestock are permitted but, unfortunately, are counted in the maximum number of domestic animals allowed per household. I would love to have some pet chickens, but we're already maxed out. Dang.

Steven

Stick around long enough Horowitzian, and Jason might even turn you into a rat-patter! I have to say I'm not quite so repulsed by them in their pet form (as opposed to their scuttling-around-in-the-dead-of-night-chewing-things-then-dying-under-the-floor-where-you-can't-get-to-them-and-smelling-the-place-out-for-weeks form) as I used to be...
... but still ...

On Czerny - I really like some of his studies. He just overdid it a bit

Yes. My cat is Very fond of rats too. Very. Fond.
Except for a little bit of large intestine.
And she says they smell great too.

Um, some of us had pet rats, you know. They are gentle, loyal, loving creatures, intelligent and healing. Ours belonged to one of my children. He was allowed loose at a certain time of day and would go out exploring. If you called him he dashed full speed up to the person and affectionately licked a hand or finger, like a tiny dog with personality.

What a strange response to:

Oh! I'm sorry, that wasn't nice at all And I do know how it feels as my old neighbour in particular used to say things about cats, and especially my cat. My apologies.

Hey and I never knew that rats could come when called, or lick a hand - that's amazing. Always imagined they would be independant and not take much notice of their owners.

Np. Actually, before we had the rat, we could not imagine how anyone could like them. The local museum had an area with some rats in a glass cage. One day we watched the attendants clean the cage, and they took out the rats that started scampering on them. They seemed to feel affection towards the creatures while we were shuddering - couldn't understand it until we had our own. They are not the true rats of the wild, but bred for this tameness.

Um, Czerny. I have the book that was passed on from a relative when I was young and is dated 1912. The studies are musical and expressive. That is why comments in PW surprised me so much. Could it be that these days different studies are being chosen from that vast collection?

Hence my original question. I suspect that his "musical" music is unjustly neglected because of his vast army of learning pieces, and I'm beginning to suspect that his learning pieces are of more value than I previously thought.

Andromaque:
There are two means of refuge from the misery of life: music and cats.
--Albert Schweitzer

I have four cats at the moment, although I have have had as many as nine. All either strays who came to stay or rescues from the animal shelter. I once had a little black cat named Scriabin.

The thing about rats is that they have a tendency to go feral if you don't pay attention to them for a stretch. I kind of like mice, but my pet of choice if I had one right now would be a cat, so no go there.

Well it is important to keep in mind that a domesticated rat (and the more generations, the better) is an entirely different animal from those horrid things I have occasionally encountered in dark alleys at night. Ecch! Interestingly, the Province of Alberta has outlawed pet rats... the wild variety have in the past been so destructive of their agricultural economy that Alberta won't deal with them in any form.

'a bit' is, well, a bit of an understatement. I would like to mention that Czerny's 'Daily Exercises' Op. 337 (uploaded at IMSLP) consist mainly of 5-finger type exercises which could make a decent alternative to Hanon, Dohnanyi, Joseffy, Tausig, etc. They aren't difficult and quite useful for warm-ups.

Otherwise, I find a lot of Czerny tedious (can you believe it- he even set the Mass text several times?), though I have to admit that parts of the 'School of Velocity' -and more so- 'Art of Finger Dexterity' contain some really fun music to play. Their pedagogical value can be debated, but for sheer exhilaration, they're hard to beat.

For experience in sight-reading, I cannot recommend these etudes highly enough. Beginning pianists would do well to look at Czerny's easier studies. Try to use an edition with fingering, it makes sight reading easier.

I've read that Lhévinne actually played an entire recital with only Czerny works.

I could add comments about pet rats (which I've had) and body parts cats won't eat (involving a three-legged cat I knew, which once caught a rabbit), but don't wish to contribute to the off-topic wanderings seen above.

There is a CD called "The Great Pianists, Vol. 2" that includes Lhévinne playing number 5 from The Art of Finger Dexterity. It's available through Barnes & Noble.

deleted

I have a baby cockatiel I love and spoil. But she is too lovely not to be spoiled...

My daughter had one, I know how sweet those little jewels can be.

They are very loving and loyal pets. I read a news story a couple of years ago about a cockatiel that died defending its owner from a burglar.

Back to Czerny, though: I think the fact that he prepared editions of so much of Bach shows that he was more than an etude-factory. Granted, his editions are full of 19th-century emendations, but everyone involved in the "Bach Revival" was guilty of that.

I downloaded a letter Czerny wrote to a student in which he guides her and also explains his reasoning. There was reasoning behind it.

The book I have was inherited from an ancestor, is dated 1912 and stamped "Bayreuth Conservatory". Another "Schule" reveals a philosophy of musicality which might have been the conservatory's philosophy - against a technical fireworks which they refer to as circus acrobatics or some such thing - They were after something musical and refined, and maybe whatever they compiled reflected that. The studies I have are pleasant. They seem to sing.

I downloaded a preparatory Czerny last year when I started piano again for real. I was self-taught not knowing what I was doing almost 4 decades ago. It started with only 5 notes per hand, in whole notes - really basic. There was definitely methodology within what he was doing, and one could trace it from one little study to the next. I learned from it, even though it was way below the level that I played (hacked out?) as a teen.

RE Czerny: My first piano teacher used one of the Czerny books of advanced etudes -- can't remember which one, but either The Art of Finger Dexterity or The School of Velocity. They were very musical, as I recall, and difficult. For me, at this time anyway, it seems like too much work to learn any of them when there's Chopin (and Liszt, for that matter), which are better compositions.

Found this recording on Amazon:
Art of Finger Dexterity:
http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Czerny-Art-Finger-Dexterity/dp/B000CS45WE


RE cats: we have two very nice ones.

RE rats: I can see how they would be cute, but not with the cats.

Just watch! So cute!

There was a CD of Czerny 4-hand music on Sony by Tal and Groethuysen that I enjoyed much more than I expected I would. It is infectiously fun and has some very energetic playing on it. It's currently OOP, but ArchivMusic reissue service will burn a copy.

I also read that he had terrible insomnia and took up writing etudes as a profitable thing to do during his many sleepless hours. And also that for the most formulaic etudes, he'd write out the basic pattern, sketch out the harmonic changes, and have students do the actual writing of all the notes.

Czerny's Toccata has a metronome marking of 120 and a tempo indication of Allegro commodo. I've always suspected that "commodo" to be an ironic joke, since there's nothing comfortable, leisurely, or easy-going about it at that speed.

Moszkowski made an arrangement of it that piles on even more difficulties (it's a bit weird that IMSLP only has the arrangement and not the original). There's a recording, but I haven't heard it.

Horowitz and Hough both performed and recorded variation sets by Czerny that are great fun to hear. Anton Kuerti is something of a Czerny enthusiast; he's recorded both some solo works and works with other instruments.

Czerny's piano sonata in A flat was highly rated by Liszt and has a stunning fugal finale (A flat minor!!!!!). However Czerny churned out a staggering 800+ opus numbered works and was described as a "composition factory" by the Irish composer John Field after a visit.

It was the formularisation of musical idioms and a whole committee of craftsmen who constructed works "piece by piece" which sadly removed the inspiration from much of Czerny's output. Hence very few of his works, in relation to that output, are regularly performed.

Hough and Horowitz perform a few bits and pieces & I have some recordings of various duet sonatas. From my outlook, I can say performing his A flat sonata is a joy & not lacking technical challenges. In terms of overall difficulty it would certainly be up with late Beethoven.

Interesting. I've read somewhere about this particular sonata, but have not seen a score. What is the opus? Perhaps it's on IMSLP (there are a number of sonatas uploaded there) and therefore I could have a chance to read through it. Your post has me very curious.

Jason,

I think the Sonata in A flat is No 1 Opus 7, which is on IMSLP.

Here are links to a couple of recordings:

http://www.analekta.com/en/album/Czerny-Piano-Sonatas.302.html

http://www.emusic.com/album/Daniel-Blume...d/11008639.html

Rich

Thanks Rich, that's it! I was able to download the score and hope to give a read-through very soon. Have you heard either of the Kuerti or Blume recordings you linked to?

In Kuerti's excellent notes to his CD, his mentions 'innumerable religious works'... I knew that Czerny set the Mass text several times (though I've never seen or heard any evidence), but according to Kuerti there's much more where that came from? How truly bizarre.

Interestingly, sometimes it's easy to forget that Liszt wrote a boat load of religious works (beyond the several well known oratorios and Mass settings), and indeed, there's more of it than all of Chopin's piano music!

Jason,

I think you can listen to the full tracks on the first link I posted. I know I've also heard a Czerny Sonata and a Symphony on the local classical radio station and thought they were well worth listening to.

Rich

It seems that overall he had a huge influence directly on the generation proceeding him, teaching people such as liszt.

It seems that overall he had a huge influence directly on the generation proceeding him, teaching people such as liszt.

Who said Czerny is boring?
Watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8tgBt8S1wc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SnTiZuet1g

Actually it was a factory (he had others employed) and Field referred to him as the Human Inkpot!

I don't mind czerny, every day for 15 minutes I learn his pieces from the School of Velocity, they are very fun to play. When I finish one I go on to the next.
I have a question too. Are you expected to play the works at the set metronome speed? Some of them are rediculous. I was playing number 7 in the book the other day and realised the speed was minum = 104, and all of the LH notes (running throughout the piece, it's a left hand study) are semiquavers! Maybe i'm not fast enough? Or...
My teacher said it's because the piano's back then had a much lighter action so you could play things like that. Was she right?
Thanks

I don't have historical data to establish it, but the idea that early pianos had a lighter and faster action is taken for granted and treated as fact. (I've seen it cited, for example, in reference to the octave glissandos in Beethoven's Waldstein sonata and tempi of Chopin's etudes (such as 176 per crochet in the first one). So either your teacher is correct, or she's heard the same stories and is making the same assumptions that everyone else does.

I did the math for the study you mentioned, and that M.M. marking calls for nearly 14 semiquavers per second. Dang, that's fast! (But hey, it's the School of Velocity. )

Steven

I have played the Czerny Toccata for years. It is hard, but it lies well in the hands, and there are much harder double note compositions out there (like Liszt's Feux Follets or the Prokofiev Toccata). The Schumann Toccata is more awkward ... some of the double note passages in it require stretches that are not easy for even larger hands.

Having said that, performing the Czerny Toccata in concerts/recitals is fun. It can be dazzling done well, and audiences respond well to it.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Liszt Disciple. I'm currently having a lot of fun learning the Schumann, but have never even heard the Czerny performed. (I can't find a single recording of it on YouTube. )

Steven

Well I cannot tell a lie. I've trashed Czerny on this forum in the past, but last month I 'discovered' Czerny's Daily Exercies Op. 337 (find them on IMSLP) and I've been having a blast. Like you, I warm up with them for about 15 minutes every morning, and I really have noticed a difference. They're not difficult -and can be memorized easily- so it has just been a matter of putting my complete concentration on what my fingers are doing. For those of us with limited time to practice, and for me it is generally before work, I am finding them ideal... and a nice break from the rigours of Dohnanyi.

I had it proved to me once, that Czerny's metronome markings are meant to be taken seriously. A teacher of mine who was a Czerny enthusiast showed how at "ordinary, reasonable" tempo some of these pieces are so boring and difficult to listen to, but at the recommended tempo they make musical sense and are quite playable.

It may happen that a tempo between the reasonable and the recommended turns out to be excessively difficult. If you know the piece, you may have to go straight to the recommended tempo without gradually working up to it. (And as all know by now - If you don't know the piece, you may have to play more slowly for a while.) :-)

I think any czerny can be helpful concerning musicality. I think that the lack of musicality in the written notes creates a void that can be filled by the desires of the pianist.

THis is an opportunity to exploit and perfect YOUR range of dynamics. Perfect your pianissimos all the way up through your Fortissimos! Perfect your ritardandos and rubatos, and then atempo.

You can make czerny etudes a study not only for the fingers but also for articulation, dynamics and musicality.

Be creative!

There is no lack of musicality in the Czerny that I have. Far from it.

music as an art is subjective. Deal with it. Thats my opinion and I'm stickin to it.

That's a good point, and one lost on the many folks who casually practice Czerny's exercises, but never bring them up to the proper, i.e. Czerny's, tempo.

It's a long way musically between Czerny and Alkan -I hope no debate there- but in Lewenthal's preface to his edition of Alkan, he makes a point which could equally apply to Czerny:

Read his markings scrupulously, starting with the metronome indications, which at first will usually seem too fast. They are not. It is you who are too slow! After you have acquired thorough familiarity with Alkan's music, the metronome indications will seem perfectly chosen.