It all comes down now to a used Steinway L (in very good condition) versus a new B. This particular L has a very special quality in the mid to upper register, and the cost is obviously considerably less, but the lower register is of course less powerful than the B, which has amazing dynamic range and a brilliant upper-most two octaves.

Although I would be pretty happy with the L (especially at the lower cost!) I am concerned about whether or not a 5' 10.5" instrument will sound "big enough" in my home. The piano will be sitting in a 12 x 10 carpeted room, cornered by two mirrored walls, opening out into a highly reflective living room of about 25 x 25 feet, featuring marble flooring. Also adjacent to this music "room" is a 23 x 14 foot dining room, with carpeting. Ceilings are quite low, with the exception of a cathedral ceiling over the sitting area of the living room.

The kitchen is further removed, as is the sunroom, but I would think that the reflective nature of the music area and the living room would help carry the sound into these other areas.

What do you think? Would the L be big enough in that space? I thank you in advance for your opinions.

The L won't have the same richness in the bass register, but may sound 'big enough' in your home. It all depends on what you value. I personally like a very rich and deep bass and would go for the B if it both had the better bass AND the rest of the piano was excellent as well. If not, I may go for the L, save some money and be content with the smaller bass. I believe both pianos will be sufficient for the space.

I'm not sure anyone can make this decision for you, except for perhaps your significant other...

I think only you can decide if the B is worth the extra money. If you tell us the prices or price differentials, how old the L is, and what work, if any, has been done to it that would be helpful.

How big is the opening from the music room into the living room?
"Adjacent to the music room" needs more explanation ...is there a wall between them? If not, how does the sound travel between them...how wide is the opening?

I'm not very knowledgable about acoustics, but I can't imagine an L completely opened being too small for a 12'by 10' room unless the sound is really going into a much larger space( like 4 or 5 times larger)?

Do you want the piano's sound to carry to other rooms in the house? It seems to me that in most cases the sound level to the person playing the piano and people in the same room would be the only thing that matters? Or are you planning on having parties were a pianist plays in your music room but the party is held in other rooms??

I can't imagine you would have any issues whatsoever with the volume of a 5'10 grand in your home. I have a 5'10 grand (albeit in a somewhat smaller space) and I had to do a lot a sound treatment to make it quieter for my tastes.

Thanks. Very good questions.

The music area is essentially an alcove, but with only two walls, so the space is entirely open to both rooms.
The sitting area in the living room is perhaps 20 feet away from the actual instrument. I would want the sound to carry very well to this area. The sitting area in the dining room would be less than 10 feet from the instrument.

The B new is just over $70K pre tax and delivery, while the 2004 L is at $44K, including tax and delivery. The L needs some exterior work, but this is being done at no charge.

Both are great instuments. I can do absolutely anything I want with the B, but I can come close with the L, which has a very special quality in the mid and mid-upper registers that the B does not quite have.

Hi
Can the dealer prep the "B" with your input concerning the quality in the mid-range?

Are both pianos at the same dealer? If so, could you negotiate a trial of the L in your home, with a commitment to purchase the B if the L proves not powerful enough?

I do share pianoloverus's opinion that the L should be sufficiently powerful enough for your home. My little M&H A at 5'8" fills the entire first floor of my house and most of the upstairs, too.

Wes -- if that's doable, that might be ideal.

Monica -- it's the same dealer; great idea.

Thanks to both of you.

Again I'm so sound expert, but I can't imagine and L fully opened not carrying easily 20' away. So it may be more a question of comparing the tonal quality(rather than the carrying power) of the two pianos in various registers. If you already have or can find a piano tech who knows your living space, they might be able to give a more definitve opinion about whether the L could be too small.

The cost vs. tonal qualities of the two pianos is something that I think only you can decide. The suggestion of asking the dealer to try to improve the sound of the B in the upper registers (or maybe the sound of the L in the bass) makes sense.

Are both pianos from the same dealer?

Yes, the same dealer.

I think you should talk to the dealer about the home trial of the L idea. Since it is a used piano, he/she should be less reluctant about moving it to your home for a short period of time, especially if the dealer stands to make more money if you return it. Plus, we all know that it's very hard to predict what a piano will sound like in the home setting. The only downside would be if somebody buys the B out from under you while you're testing the L... but I don't think that's very likely. You should know within a couple of days of the L being in your home whether you'd be happy with it.

If somebody buys the B there will be another and another. Yes, every piano is unique in some sense, but the B is always available. The L seems like the more important of the two choices at present because as a used piano of a given vintage at a particular dealer it is the more unique part of the twosome.

Monica's idea is really sound (pun intended). If you ultimately prefer the extra bass oomph or the tonal characteristics of the B you can always make the switch, but having the L in the house for a few weeks will allow an extended trial.

Are these both fair prices -- that is, the new B for $75K and the five year old used L at $44K? (These prices include tax and delivery.)

The new B is probably around list price...last time I looked at it (probably 6 months ago) is was $72,500; but not surprising it's gone up. If it's worth it to you, then it's a fair price. As for the used piano, I have no advice other than to have an independent tech look it over if you haven't already.

As to the B's mid and upper registers, it may need nothing more than some quality tech time, which your dealer should include in the purchase. Don't take it unless it satisfies you. When I got my B, I was allowed to help uncrate it and I tested it right off the bat. Surprisingly good considering; I knew I wanted it because the bass was already drop-dead wonderful. The main issues were an overly heavy action and a rather soft upper register. But after the dealer/tech finished with his prep, I tested again in the store and was in utter ecstasy. I've only played one measurably better piano, and that's one of the C&A D's at the store. And even that is really only in the action (longer keys) and bass (naturally). Couldn't be happier.

If your dealer would let you test the L out at home, that would be fantastic.

The try-out is a good idea, if the seller will go for it. You'll likely have to pay for the delivery on the return and then again for the second piano, if that's how it works out. A couple, maybe three, hundred per. Very modest compared to the purchase price. And honestly, hearing the instrument in your home is the only real way to know what it's going to sound like. The acoustics in the showroom are usually quite different than the music room in a residence.

Would you let us know, Arnie? And don't forget the pictures.

If you're considering a new B, I would recommend a trip to the factory in NYC. You will have a selection of 6-8 there, and you will likely find exactly what you want (worth it for the amount of money you are considering). I did that...

Or have you considered a used B that would be a little more than the L?

A trip to the factory is a good idea if you aren't finding exactly what you like. I was fortunate to get exactly what I wanted locally. Otherwise, that was my next step.

Well, I really like this particular new B I tried at the local factory outlet (but I only tried three). I could do absolutely anything I wanted to on that instrument, which was an amazing experience.

I guess I could travel to NY, but their prices are higher (at least $5K more), and I'd still have to pay taxes, because they are now collecting taxes on out-of-state deliveries, so there's little point, as long as I'm happy with the one here.

I wasn't happy with the used Bs at this particular factory, but a trip to NY I suppose might allow me to find a good used B.

Thanks for your input thus far. I will definitely let you know what I decide to do.

Arnie:

If you can afford it, get a B. Holdout until you find one that's just right. 10 years from now, the extra money you paid will be forgotten, just the piano will remain. A B is one of the best pianos for the home and is fairly priced compared to other high end 7' pianos. Also, just to consider, the L was not one of Steinways most successful models and I would think in the future its resale value will be less than an O.

Good luck!

Steve

If you pick a new B from the Steinway factory, the dealer will buy it from the factory at wholesale cost and you should buy it at the same cost as the B you are currently interested in.

If you buy from Steinway Hall, you are buying from a completely different dealer and will pay whatever their asking price is.

I meant for you to go to the factory....

I see! The one in Queens?

Unless you want to buy a ticket to Hamburg

+1 !

if you can afford it, i'd go with the B.. it's fantastic piano.. it will grow with you.

Steve, are you suggesting that the L was not successful and was discontinued due to a design flaw of some kind, or because it simply didn't sell well at its price range (presumably because a new B costs only about $20K more)?

Hi Arnie:

Most Steinway afficiondos would agree that the L wasn't up to the O. I don't know their reason for discontinuing that model, but the O is certainly more sought after than the L.
I'm sure the L sold well, as is the O and the model A is also popular. I can't say for sure as I don't know the future, but I would venture a guess 30 years from now a 1997 O would be easier to sell than a 1996 L and worth a premium over the L

Steve

That's interesting, because I vastly preferred the five year old L to the new O in stock.

One other consideration with a new piano is that it takes a bit of time to "break in" - so with a top tech and some time, it can bloom. OTH, you should be absolutely "gaga" about the piano you buy. If there's more head than heart in this, you might want to do some waiting or traveling and try some other pianos until you find one you can't live without. When your brain shuts off and your sould is saying "i want THIS PIANO" - you've arrived.

The NY O transitioned to the L in 1923. The L sold quite sucessfully for near 85 years before transitioning back to the O in NY I believe in 2007. The Steinway O has always been in production in the Hamburg factory. There is no such thing as a Hamburg Steinway L. The bass string scale is identical as for the L and the latest scale /duplex bar curved bass bridge O. Steinway IN PART wanted to streamline their models in both factories. It's intersting that until recent in the restoration industry,the unrestored Steinway L commanded more $ than the unrestored O mainly due to the L(s) were much newer and in better condition as for unrestored.

Arnie. Your comparing of different Steinways is a very complex situation. Steinways come from the factory with very soft hammers,(however I hear that a store can now order pianos with prehardened hammers.) The preparation that is required of a new Steinway, at the dealer, is very great. They are asked to spend many hours on the action and the voicing of the hammers. The dealer can choose to do this preparation or not. And our local Steinway dealer perfers to sell the piano and then provide the amount of regulation and hammer voicing that the buyer wants and demands. The Steinway B which my wife liked at the dealer was the only one that they had put two weeks of work into it to satisfy a demanding buyer. The other Bs lacked the bright and strong sound which my wife likes. The other Bs also did not have the perfected touch and action that she wanted.

The salesperson of course wanted us to buy a unprepared B with the promise that they would do the work for her also.

I guess that the advantage of chosing one at the factory showroom is that there they have several pianos which are very finished. Our local Steinway dealer also goes to lengths to show how the pianos are handmade and the parts do not interchange, so each piano has its own tone and artistic voice.

Please understand that there are two different ways of selling pianos. One is to only show very well prepared pianos for an artist to audition. Another is to show pianos without all of the preparation and then promise to satisify an artist (if they know to ask for it). A dear college pianist friend of my wife graduated with my wife from college and got her first job. She then went to the Steinway dealer and went in debt to get her first grand piano. Recently, many years later, she was at our home playing my wife's pianos. Only from us did she now learn that her piano needed much more than tuning to play and sound wonderful. No tuner over the years had ever wanted to regulate and voice the piano to its potential or to keep it playing to its potential.

Pianos require maintaince.

Many people who are artists can tell when a piano is an instrument of beauty and fulfillment. As you are investing so much money, and you can tell the difference in fine pianos, then spend the time shopping and comparing. Then work with a dealer who will deliver the great preparation and such that a fine piano requires.

I am saying that Steinways and many other fine pianos are often great pianos. But great pianos always have wonderful designs, careful manufacture, and then very skillful and expensive preparation and finally high quality maintance. All this means the same model can differ very much from piano to piano. And I have not even mentioned that your concern about the rooms of you home are also a big issue.

So I guess that I am saying that you should spend the money to work with a very fine dealer and salesperson who will meet you many needs to help you have a great piano for your home.
Good luck and may you be excited now and in the future about you great piano that you will have.

Bingo, Gary. Having a good relationship with a great tech is the best thing you can do for your piano and your continued playing enjoyment.

Kluurs,

I would have to say that I absolutely love the B and really, really, really like the L but would almost certainly trade up to a B a couple/few years down the road. What I would really like to know is whether $44K with everything included is a good deal on a five year old model that has some superficial issues (which will be fixed by the time of purchase) but internally is in very good shape. If not, I might just go ahead and get the new B, whether now or next year.

I certainly had a much stronger both emotional and intellectual response to those two specific pianos. I tried several other Steinways that were OK but did not really speak to me. I also tried three different Bosendorfers, two Estonias, three Petrofs, a Forster, several Yamahas, a Kawai (not Shigeru), two Schimmels, and a Baldwin. Plus, I listened to recordings of a Bluthner, a Fazioli, and a Bechstein (not ideal, I know).

Arnie, there will almost certainly be a loss when you trade up, particularly if you're buying the L from a dealer. Maybe try to learn how much it would cost to rent that L or another equally good piano for a few years, then compare that amount to the cost of trading up.

IMO if you want a quality grand now and expect to be able to afford to trade up, it'd be reasonable to compare expected loss to rental costs.

I was going to buy a Yamaha for 23k, then I decided that I didn't want to regret not getting what I really wanted, the Steinway, even though it was more than twice the price. In the end, I got the Steinway, it'll be paid off soon, and no regrets, or finding a buyer for the Yamaha (and losing money) to get what I really want.

Don't let money be the deciding factor, because soon enough it will be paid for. Get what you REALLY want. And don't look back.

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. I decided upon the used Steinway L. Although the B was also excellent, the L had a special quality, and I just didn't want to let it go. I expect delivery on Wednesday.

Woo-hoo!

CONGRATULATIONS! Pictures, please when it arrives!

Arnie,

I was looking for this thread because I wanted to make a comment in favor of the L. I tuned a very nice 1985 L over the weekend that seemed to have a really special character. The kind of tone that 'blooms'.

Since Steinways can vary a lot, I would have had the same technician go over both pianos to give you a comparison, and buy the one with the most 'Steinwayesque' sound. Sound like that's what you did!

Congradulations. Not only will you enjoy the piano greatly but you will now be a much more educated pianist. And your knowledge should contribute to you music making and enjoyment.

All the best with your wonderful piano.

Congratulations on your new Steinway L!

You picked a great piano because it was the one that sang to you. Enjoy many happy hours with it.

congrats.

pics when it arrives please (once you're doing playing it for many hours!)

Thanks, everyone! I will endeavor to get some pictures up within a few days. Can't wait for tomorrow!