That's how I think it should be done. People don't fit into neat little compartments.

I agree in principle. But many adults have a problem with that.

There's an expression my husband taught me that is very apt: "The squeaky wheel gets the oil". I had a very amiable meeting with my teacher this afternoon. I phrased my complaints by starting with "I feel..." so the conversation was not adversarial. She agreed that there was good reason for me to feel pushed aside. We spent almost my entire lesson (and an additional 1/2 hour) talking.

The outcome was: I will be participating in 2 recitals, 2 master classes and 1 adjudication between now and April. The adjudication requires memorizing 2 pieces - something I haven't attempted in decades. I mentioned the fact that memorizing was a result of Clara Schumann's habit of doing this and as an older adult I felt perfectly comfortable flouting tradition. She admitted that even Clara had difficulty memorizing in her 50's so she's going to find out if it is absolutely necessary for an adult to memorize. I'm going to attempt it anyway for the challenge.

I'm going to polish Mozart's sonata 457 first movement, (along with the 2nd and 3rd movements) and Brahms' Opus 119 #2 for the adjudication in January. She's still resisting my learning a Prokofiev sonata because she feels I need to learn lesser, easier works first so I can understand how to play Prokofiev. I disagreed with her pointing out that my first Bach piece (other than 2 two part inventions when I was 12) was the Italian Concerto and I did just fine. I told her I am someone who relishes a challenge and I do my best and make the most progress when the bar is set very high. If I really love a piece of music, I won't give up until I get it right.

I also pushed to work on the Bach D minor concerto 3rd movement so I can finish it and play it this summer at the Victoria Conservatory. We agreed I will wait for spring for that. Meanwhile I will finish the rest of Brahms Opus 119 and the Bach Ab major prelude and fugue (book 1) then maybe next spring or summer I want to move on to a Chopin Ballade and a Beethoven sontata. She tried to push me into a sonata other than the Waldstein. She said she though "I" would mind playing something another student was working on. I think she twisted her own words because she was the one who objected. I'm pretty sure I will win the Waldstein when I have time to work on it.

I'm happy for now but will keep on top of this to make sure she follows through.

Edit: I do think piano teachers tend to stereotype adult piano students as non serious hobbyists. I think it takes perseverence and communication to get them to realize this is not always true. I believe I have just as much potential as any 17 year old piano student. White hair and wrinkles make me interesting not stagnant!

How wonderful. Good for you, Deborah!

Glad to hear it!!

That sounds great. I hope you have good experiences with these performances.

At last some news! Very happy for you. Your teacher should be proud of herself too for going somewhere new and opening doors. Wishing you and your teacher the best for your coming performances.

I wonder if my teacher will suggest I perform.... hmmmm. Until now I've only had one-off lessons to help with teaching, but we are just starting to go regularly and I have pondered this question myself. Who knows what she thinks... I will need to earn my spot by being a regular student first.

I think you wrote something important in your addendum, Deborah:

Earlier Andromaque gave another side of that - A's teacher had only met with refusal by adults on the question of recitals and so had stop asking that of any adult. We cannot come into lessons assuming anything because who knows what conclusions teachers have reached about adult learners. If you don't say anything and just sit back wondering, nothing will happen, because the teacher just doesn't know. And we don't know that they don't know.

Bravo, Deborah!! You're inspiring me to update goals & plans with my teacher, too! I think serious amateur adult students of piano are rather spread apart from one another! Thank goodness for this forum!

"...I am surprised that what I originally wrote was even controversial. That an adult would do better with a teacher who is experienced at teaching adults, rather than teaching only children, seems almost self-evident to me. But perhaps I'm missing something."

It's self-evident to me. But, some of those teachers are pretty shark-like when it comes to entering their pedagogical proxies into the competitions. This was not self-evident; I had to have it explained to me, by a teacher. This was after my own teacher sprinkled her instructional patter with such encouragements as, "You can't learn," or, "So you know nothing about legato," and assorted displays of really bad temper.

I think she might have been talking about herself. But, I stopped taking the attitude that a piano teacher has to be cut that much slack. Let them step over the line but a time or two, and that's it.

Who really cares what Madame Schumann did. Later instructors of technic took the hide off her; I was just reading a piece about her this morning that would have made her break out in a rash. Following her example could be the ruin of a contemporary student.

I think your talk with this lady was overdue, Deborah... and I'd keep her on a pretty short leash. Expressions like, "You can't learn," could very well be decoded as, "I can't teach." I've seen enough on these forums to more than give me cause for pause. Finding the right teacher is a very worthy goal, but I have a feeling you may not be there yet.

Jeff, my teacher has never said "You can't learn". Her criticism is gentle and appropriate. If you are referring to her wanting me to learn smaller Prokofieff pieces before tackling a sonata, I think this actually sounds sensible for some students. I just don't happen to agree with her.

It is a bit weird, still I got a jovial reception from the audience at my recital. The recital was a challenge, and a good learning experience.



I think so. The highlight of my recital was being high-fived by a couple of nine year olds.

I have no problem playing in a recital with kids. Many of them are better than I! Beside, I like teens and enjoy spending time with them, (which is a good thing because I teach high school). I also find them to be very welcoming and supportive and I am delighted to return the favor!

Way to stand up for yourself, Deborah. It sounds like (i) you made major progress in letting your teacher know what you want and (ii) the teacher isn't entirely convinced that's what you should want, but she seems genuinely willing to give it a try. If she starts to backslide, just remember -- you know where the door is. Good luck.

Piano Again --

We must have been typing at the same time -- I didn't see your comment about the DC Adult Music Student Forum until just now, as I was re-reading the thread.

I've done a lot of public performance over the years, but haven't yet managed to get signed up for an AMSF performance. I have several friends who've done it, and they've enjoyed the experience, so one of these days I guess I'll raise my hand and give it a try. How about you?

Jeff, it doesn't sound like you had a good teacher. In particular "You know nothing about legato" shows that she did not know her own responsibilities. She is supposed to teach you legato, and if you know nothing about it, either she hasn't taught it, or you ignored her instructions, or she taught it ineffectively. In any case, if a student were mature (adult) and well-informed as well as sufficiently confident, I'd see a response something like this:

"You are right, I don't know legato. Could you please teach me and also tell me how to practice it at home?"** That puts the responsibility where it belongs. If she knows how to teach it, then you're all set to go. If her practicing instructions are decent, then that problem is solved as long as you practice. If she can't teach then I guess that will become apparent rather suddenly. And if a teacher truly doesn't know how to teach, there is no point in taking lessons with such a person.

Deborah's teacher is probably in a different category. The scenario of teachers thinking adult students won't be willing to do recitals or have lesser goals does exist. In that case the teacher is all too willing but will not push for fear of alienating the student. You can have some serious miscommunication happening on that front unless somebody says something.

**Ok, that's unrealistic, but wouldn't it be apt?

I envy all of you who must live in larger cities with more adult amateurs. In our town, there are very, very few; at least very few who are willing to identify themselves and play!

I agree that teachers often discount serious amateurs, but I think they have experienced many adults who end up giving up, or not being serious, often because they lack the time to give to piano.

As for performance opportunities; perhaps your teacher can help you organize your own recital. If an entire recital is too much, maybe a couple other amateur musicians could take part.

My teacher has encouraged me (and other adults) to offer a recital in our own home or at a public venue with a piano (church or retirement home, etc. where we can invite our own guests).

"Jeff, my teacher has never said "You can't learn". Her criticism is gentle and appropriate. If you are referring to her wanting me to learn smaller Prokofieff pieces before tackling a sonata, I think this actually sounds sensible for some students."

Nah, I was actually referring to my own, former piano teacher. Her exact words. I'm glad you're doing better with yours.

I would think it's worth a shot, if you want to try the sonata. After all, you take it a phrase at a time, whether it's a short piece or a long, and you have the shorter pieces as a fallback if that works out better for you.

If it's a question of the length of time the performance takes at the recital, you could showcase a single movement.

Some of my piano teachers have let me choose among several pieces. That seems like one way to compromise.

I like choosing my own pieces too, but I've had some really good suggestions from teachers of pieces that I wasn't even aware of, and probably wouldn't have easily found on my own.

Jeff, I actually made very good progress on Prokofieff's sonata #5 but I got bogged down around page 8. This was one of the reasons I decided to change teachers. My former teacher was not offering any advice around the logjam. I also started the 2nd movement and found my progress to be similar to how I plod through a Bach fugue - slowly, measure by measure.

As a teacher myself, I understand the reason my new piano teacher wants me to have a stronger background in Prokofieff before I move into a sonata. She's afraid I will become frustrated. Maybe I'm being arrogant or maybe I'm right, but I thoroughly connect to Prok's music and don't see the need to move through smaller pieces first. I usually don't like 20th century music, but for some reason I love Prokofieff's. I don't mind working hard and I'm willing to give it a try. (I'm disappointed that my teacher dislikes #5 so much because I was hoping to finish it.)

Deborah, do forgive me, but I'd like to point out that Sergei Prokofieff was a Soviet-born anthroposophist. The composer is Sergei Prokofiev.

Cheers!

Ha Ha! I was actually wondering about the spelling. I've seen it both ways. Thanks!

Not to highjack this thread, but I've played on one AMSF outreach program (at a nursing home) and on one of the more beginner recitals at someone's house. Also attended a few events. Everyone is very nice, and it's fun talking to people who are on the same wavelength about playing the piano. I keep meaning to sign up for more stuff, but there always seems to be something going on that prevents me.

May I ask what it is about the new teacher that has helped you around the logjam which was not happening with the old one?

KS

No problem! FWIW, I've never seen Prokofiev spelled any other way in English. Rachmaninoff, OTOH...

I can't answer you because we're not working on that Prokofiev right now.

Sorry Deborah, that question was badly worded. I was thinking of the change of teachers and not necessarily the Prokofiev. But it was probably an awkward thing to ask and not quite on topic.

I was about to weigh in with a vote in favor of alternate spellings of Prokofiev's name and checked my collection of CDs with his works so I could quote statistics on the number that spelled the name with "ff" at the end. Good thing I did. Every single one of them uses the "v" ending you prefer -- including a recording of the man himself performing his 3rd concerto. You learn something every day.

Keystring, I can't really answer your very good question right now. I've been with my new teacher for only 5 months and we've been focusing on theory (I had very little), playing without tension and sweetening my tone. I'm very satisfied with my progress so far. I've been working on Brahms and Bach so I've hit no logjams yet.

But then, on the other hand, Boosey & Hawkes publishes quite a bit of his music and they use the "ff" ending. Also, to make things even more confusing, I've seen his first name in various different transliterations - Serge, Sergei, Sergey.