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#1011310 - 04/04/08 07:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by senderoaa:
great post, guys and gals!

I was wondering if there is a way to print all the 48 pages in one document....any ideas?
thanks [/b]
Hi senderoaa, at least 48 pages is not as bad as printing 1200 message \:D Have fun!
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#1011311 - 04/04/08 08:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
rintincop - I enjoyed your youtube post of Easy Living. I do have a lot of ballads in my repertoire. Listening to the solo in this piece is quite inspiring. My work is definitively cut out for me in my journey here on this thread. \:D

Also enjoyed the pictures of Paris - brought back vacation memories.
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A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011312 - 04/05/08 11:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
senderoaa Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 13
I will have fun...trust me!

so, I will start my printing journey...as I prefer reading paper than reading my computer screen..

tx!

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#1011313 - 04/06/08 03:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Bump
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#1011314 - 04/07/08 11:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Hello??? Anybody in here??? OK, it's just too quiet in here!!! What is everyone up to? I know y'all are busy doing something. I'm not able to record yet so I haven't posted anything but I am still working on arps and improvisation for my RH. What's everyone else up to?
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#1011315 - 04/07/08 12:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi Woody, like you, I am having fun doing the arps and RH improvisation. Getting the off beat to accent is still quite difficult for me esp doing them in 110bmp.

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#1011316 - 04/07/08 12:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Hi Rosa, I'm just the opposite, I don't think I have problem with the accents but I loose it in the fingering of the arps and improvisation. I'm still waiting for my metronome to arrive so I can find out what speed I'm playing at. O/T, are you back on Sudnow again?
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#1011317 - 04/07/08 12:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Sendoora, welcome to our group. I have about 50+ pages already but I didn't print everything out. If you print all the postings, I think you will have hundreds of pages.

What I did was I went to the first post -- and there jazzwee listed all the lessons.

Click on each lesson and cut and paste that lesson out onto a word processor document. The lessons instructions are very clear already so you will know exactly what to do. Then when you get stuck, you can always go back and refer to the in between posts OR just come in here and ask questions for quicker feedback.

Even just printing the lesson pages, you have more than 40+ pages.

Also print out all the pdf files where you have all the music notations from Chris bell. There are about 9 or 10 of them.

Once you start the first 2 or 3 lessons on voicing, you can start doing the solo lessons in in Lesson 10 - 14. That is really the MOST fun part. Don't need to master the walking bass nor the voiceless rootless before getting to the solo.

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#1011318 - 04/07/08 01:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Woody, actually for the arps, you don't need to think too much cuz your fingers are already on the chord tones and apparently the 9th doesn't have to be on the off beat so it makes it much much EASIER. You can just put your RH in a fixed handposition for that chord arp and then just change your fingering. It always matches cuz we are using 1, 3, 5, 7 & 9. Every tone is right. What is O/T?

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#1011319 - 04/07/08 01:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Off/Topic. Since this is an AL Thread and I was asking you about the Sudnow Method. The problem I have with the fingering is once I leave the arps and go into improv. The finger menory is still set for the arps and it takes a bit to loose the finger memory. And yes, I can hit notes that are just wrong because they should be played as passing and somehow that isn't how they turn out. The bottom line is it's still fun so I'll continue to work at it.
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#1011320 - 04/07/08 01:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
OK, thanks for the explanation. You are ahead of me. I am simply doing ARPS and not improv. Although when I get to the bridge, I added some improv cuz it might sound too boring just arps.

I've been in the Sud's program for a loooong time but I never got going for the 3rd song cuz I simply could not memorize dots into my fingers. But after doing ATTYA here, out of curiosity, I went back to see how my voicing was different from Sud's dots and lo and behold, the only difference was the dominants where he had the b13 and b9. So I was very EXCITED about this. Because I understood what I was doing and no memory work and could always go back and play the songs.

I know Sud insists that we follow everything for the first 15 songs. But I need to make a bit adjustment for my learning cuz I am not good at memorizing (I soon forget)

There is a lot of VALUE in his program. Yes I am now picking out his songs again and I will be voicing them myself with what I can do with 3rds, 7ths, 9ths and then see what I am missing out from the dot diagrams afterwards and then make adjustments.

This way of progress is much FASTER for me. I can finish a song in 2 weeks. Unlike in the past it took me at least 2 months to memorize a song and soon forgetting everything when I don't practise. That part was very demotivating for me. But now I don't have that phobia anymore so I can progress in his program.

Are you in his program?

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#1011321 - 04/07/08 02:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
No, I'm not in the program but it does come highly recommended here on the forum.

As far as playing from memory, I cheat and use sheet music. I could probably close the book after a few reps but I still use the crutch. I only use memorizing on my classical music.

I started the improv because the ARPS were getting way to predictable and I needed a change. Maybe I started too early???
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#1011322 - 04/07/08 03:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
Hey guys! I'm here. I didn't realize I've typed 40 pages of lessons? Wow. I thought maybe 10...

Rosa, how come you're reluctant to improv? That's the more difficult thing you know so you want to start that early. Once you can improvise you can play for hours even in solo piano, which I believe is one of your goals. Personally, I love having the ability to do that. So go for it. Even at the most basic.
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#1011323 - 04/07/08 03:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
Woody, improv can never be done too early. Arps is one of the improv vocabulary so early mastery is always good. Scales is another one. Taking hints from the melody is another one. Part of improvising is building a vocabulary to choose from and to have it built to a point that you can hear it before you play it.

So maybe it sounds trite with just a limited vocabulary at the beginning but it comes over time (and not that long if you purposely listen for it and apply it).

I often wondered if it can come to beginners but it is happening to me. Right now I'm focused on expanding my vocabulary so that's why I'm transcribing.

In jazz the initial goal is to "copy". Since it is an aural form of music, copying has no negative connotation. It starts from hearing what the original masters have done.

It's funny because you guys copy me and I copy others too...
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#1011324 - 04/07/08 03:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Jazzwee, we certainly aren't copying..., well..., we're..., ah, interpreting. See that actually sounds good!!!!

My improv - sometimes good, sometimes bad. Yes ARPS, SCALES, and orignal melody in the improv. What I really need to come up with is some continuity. I'm working on it. By the time I finally get my H2 I may be good enough to actually record something. We'll see.
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#1011325 - 04/08/08 01:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
Let us know of your progress Woody. In words if not in recordings.

Rosa, I just remembered your comment about ATTYA dominant chords. Please note that the rootless voicings are designed to teach voice leading voicings (least amount of motion), so for that reason voicings like b9, b13 on dominants would not necessarily be discussed though even I would use similar voicings.

As you progress, you start altering those dominants in many other ways and I'm certain I mentioned that before. For example, in ATTYA or even in AL, I will likely alter the dominants in different ways and I can do it without pre-planning.

In the Jazzwee Method (which is obviously my unnamed teacher's method), the ability to switch to shell voicings (17/13, 15/379, and filling in with extensions as needed), standard rootless chords in A/B Inversions, and substitutions with alterations, are intended to happen automatically without pre-planning.

I don't know how this compares to the Sudnow method but this was the issue my teacher had to correct in me, because I did not practice these moves to be automatic. This was my back to basics exercise which I have now conquered. It is basically an almost instant recognition of chord voicings and extensions in one's hands, and the ability to vary it depending on the situation (melody, orchestration, solo vs. combo, etc.).

When you reach this level, you are able to play any tune in the Real Book in a jazzy sounding way without much practice. I think it takes years to get there. I'm just barely there I think.

I'm curious to what the Sudnow approach is to teaching voicings.
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#1011326 - 04/08/08 02:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi Jazzwee,

I am trying out different kinds of arps playing, either doing some repeat notes or changing the orders. Actually I quite enjoy doing it but someone listening to it might find the arps boring. I hope to post something up when I get my accent sound like it is on the off-beat. When I play it fast, it is difficult to train my fingers to stress on the off beat.

 Quote:


In the Jazzwee Method .....

Hey I like this -- Jazzwee's Method. Your method is working quite WELL for me. Lots of hard work but not boring. Lots of fun.


 Quote:


...the ability to switch to shell voicings (17/13, 15/379, and filling in with extensions as needed), standard rootless chords in A/B Inversions, and substitutions with alterations, are intended to happen automatically without pre-planning.
Hey I like this too. I like when things happen automatically without preplanning.

I think I understand the 17/13, 15/379

For the standard rootless chords in A/B inversions are you referring to either 3rd or 7th as the lowest note?

Have you taught us substitutions and alterations yet?

 Quote:

... practice these moves to be automatic. This was my back to basics exercise which I have now conquered. It is basically an almost instant recognition of chord voicings and extensions in one's hands, and the ability to vary it depending on the situation (melody, orchestration, solo vs. combo, etc.).

Wow...didn't know this Jazzwee's Method is so GREAT!

Make sure you spell it out to me and let me know when I am getting these moves automatic.

 Quote:


When you reach this level, you are able to play any tune in the Real Book in a jazzy sounding way without much practice. I think it takes years to get there. I'm just barely there I think.
WOW!!!! You should post this on the front page -- people have no idea what great stuff they are missing here \:\( . They think it is just one of those standard common lessons..... but somehow I recognized something different but didn't know what it was until you spell it out now.

 Quote:

I'm curious to what the Sudnow approach is to teaching voicings.
His is a BRILLIANT method because he gets total beginners (people without any experience on the piano) to play the piano right away with his dot diagrams following only 3 step rules. People can just memorize the fingerings and play those lush sounding chords right away even though they don't read music. The idea is not to analyze but to get his method into your fingers with 15 songs.

He doesn't do the shell voicings of moving from 17 to 13. The idea is to play 2 notes in LH and most of the other color tones in the RH.

Thanx to you, I am now finally able to make good use of his material cuz I got stuck for more than 2 years because I simply did not have the discipline to memorize the fingerings. He throws you into the deep end right away, but I am probably one of those type that works better by increasing my sounds one step at a time.

Rosa

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#1011327 - 04/08/08 11:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
OK Gang, I decided to do a recording of this tonight. It is full of 8ths notes & Evans arps.

Take a deep breath and listen to this continuous 8th notes:

http://www.box.net/shared/xc5mvfds0o

The part on Evans arps probably not legato enough.

Rosa

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#1011328 - 04/08/08 12:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
That's great Rosa. I hear the improvising already and I do hear the accents. You are working really hard.

Now to correctly emulate Bill Evans, on a fast tune he's a very hard swinger, i.e. closer to 2:1 ratio. So I would add more swing to your playing. Actually have the ability to play a range from the hardest swing to the straightest swing.

Here's a youtube of Bill Evans again.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bbUpSH76RL0

Note the Arps at 2:38 which is exactly what we're talking about. I have a different version of AL by Bill
Evans from Itunes, and it is more Arp oriented than this Youtube. In fact, I transcribed the arps and he goes up then plays the next arp (for the next chord) going down).

Here's a few of those arps I transcribed with their variations (this is transposed since he played in Gm). This shows the arp variations with repeat notes. All are eighth notes.

Am
>
9 5 9 5 7
B E B E G

D7
-> <- >
B D B A

Cmaj7
<
D C B G E E


Sorry that I just did this in passing and I didn't have Finale at the time. I did a more formal transcription of Keith Jarrett playing AL, couple of choruses. Very hard to do. I haven't had time to correct a couple of errors but when I do, I'll post it.
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#1011329 - 04/08/08 01:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Good going Rosa! I'm glad you jumped on to the improvisation bandwagon here. Now that you have started, just do some of this each day. (It's kind of like taking your vitamins) \:D

Jazzwee, I think you forgot that youtube link in your previous post.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011330 - 04/08/08 01:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
sorry about that (and many typos and unclear statements). I've been really busy so I'm doing all these between phone calls and emails...
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#1011331 - 04/09/08 12:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
.
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#1011332 - 04/09/08 02:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Look guys, I found this:

Bill Evans Solo on Autumn Leaves.
No need to transcribe yourself.

http://pianologist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/bill-evans-solo-on-autumn-leaves.pdf

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#1011333 - 04/09/08 12:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
Good find! I wish we knew what album it's from though.

One thing to add though. There's nothing like doing your own transcription. For some reason, it is so intense a process that the sounds gets integrated into your style quickly. Sometimes you're on one line for hours so by the time you're at the piano, you can hear that line over and over. You don't even have to do much transcription initially to get the benefits.
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#1011334 - 04/10/08 09:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi Jazz Mates,

I've been working on a new practice tactic. I know that when I try to do a solo, I'm a bit hesitant about going to different registers of the piano. It feels safe to stick in one area. I thought of a way to help me over this hurdle.

To deal with this issue, I decided to experiment traveling around playing the AL melody and using rootless in the LH. When playing the melody, I'll play a couple of bars at a time in different registers. It is starting to feel better now traveling over 3 octaves. \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011335 - 04/11/08 01:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
I'll Blog too Barb. It might be interesting for you guys to know what I'm working on since I'm past the basics.

Here's one.

When I listen to the Jazz masters play, in particular I was looking at my teacher, and Kenny Werner, both heavily influenced by Bill Evans, I noticed how they are able to play legato even when playing sixteenth notes.

First of all it took awhile (just recently) until I could even solo with some sixteenth notes. It was tough. But as I demonstrated it to my teacher, he said to play it more legato. At these high speeds that's pretty tough to do but that's the characteristic sound I've been trying to get. BTW some players never try to sound legato at high speed.

The other thing I wanted to achieve in addition to sixteenth notes legato, was the ability to play a complex two handed solo piano without pedal. This was another legato issue.

My model here was Kenny Werner playing this beautiful version of My Romance where he played these legato lines instead of the usual jerky stop and go of the jazz vocabulary.

So with this task at hand, I've been working on this for months just studying my technique, getting scales at higher and higher speeds. I found this particularly good exercise at maintaining even articulation was to play LH against RH with a different pattern like 1:3, 1:4, etc. and also making sure I correctly accent the top of each set on the RH.

This was gruelling practice. In the last couple of weeks, I've noticed some really solid improvement. I went back to playing My Romance with a shell LH like 1/5/7, thumb and index finger of RH and melody or solo on the 4/5 fingers of the RH. The middle voices are played usually on beat '1 &'. And I noticed that I can maintain a constant cantabile sound without pedal. And of course with swing.

This is really exciting for me because playing a tune correctly is one thing, but playing and coming out with one's voice is another level. My voice is coming out!

Many players are recognizable by the way they play. And in a way this is a personal search.

This is like another level of my search which is similar to many of you finding your 'swing' voice.

Who's blog is next?
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#1011336 - 04/11/08 06:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
My voice is coming out! [/b]
We'd love to hear that new voice of yours whenever you are ready to share it with us!
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011337 - 04/14/08 05:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Bump
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#1011338 - 04/15/08 08:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
I'm trying out the rootless voicing. Since I want to do the modern stride (only 2 beats for each measure), the bass note hit on the downbeat 1. For the rootless voicing, should I just let it go and hit on the 3rd beat, or should I slow down and strive to hit on the + of 2?

Rosa

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#1011339 - 04/15/08 04:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
Usually you'd hit the + of 2. I don't know if I'm understanding you right but to describe how I do it, I would hit the bass note irregularly. In Autumn Leaves, it would be approximately once every two measures.

There's also a couple of ways this is done. In some cases, some players will hit the bass staccato almost, just to lightly suggest the root.

Some would pedal to the first rootless chord, which could get muddy on the RH solo.
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