Forums by Piano World

www.pianoworld.com
Advertise on Piano World
Piano Accessories & Supplies - Music Gifts
PianoSupplies.com is a division of Piano World. Piano & music accessories, tuning & repair tools, moving equipment, party goods,music gift items, more.
Free shipping on Jansen Artist Benches.
Recent Posts
Hindemith's Third Piano Sonata
by beet31425
03/18/10 09:45 PM
O.T.: NCAA tourney, or UK's Rise to Glory
by Monica K.
03/18/10 09:44 PM
Which Chopin piece is this (Radio 4 Book of the Week today)
by Horowitzian
03/18/10 09:41 PM
P85 vs PX130
by Joey Burtoni
03/18/10 09:41 PM
Left hand soft, right hand strong?
by Nikorasu
03/18/10 09:21 PM
Additional Resources
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search

Download & Print
Sheet Music Instantly!

Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale


Grand Obsession, A Piano Odyssey
GRAND OBSESSION
A Piano Odyssey

by Perri Knize
Read Reviews & Free Chapter Excerpts



How Old Is My Piano?
Press Room
Today's Birthdays
Arcadia (28), asavedsoul (24), Bec (35), bradford555 (61), ClassicalVegan (25), Claviers (52), Denoit (52), JesusFreak (25), mcnasty (40), ShalannaCollins (51), teeto (25), uspianowatcher (54), Yusuf Kazi (23)
RSS Feeds
This is a multi-forum Piano RSS Feed
Multi - Piano Forum RSS Feed
Who's Online
228 registered (12345dan, ABC, al-mahed, -Frycek, 4evr88, 88Key_PianoPlayer), 756 Guests and 22 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
#1299361 - 11/04/09 10:34 AM Should I feel bad taking money?
spatial Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 91
Loc: USA
I responded to an ad at a local music school for a singer looking for an accompanist. This man is in his late 60s, hasn't sung in years, and is looking for someone to rehearse art songs and spirituals on a weekly basis for occasional performances at church. He starts telling me about his life, and I learn that he lives with his schizophrenic son, his partner committed suicide in June, and he basically hasn't been out of the house in months, except to go to work. He wants to have one last go at singing, and it seems to be the only joy he has left. We went through a couple pieces last night, and while he sings with a great deal of expression, his voice is basically gone, especially in the upper register. I have no idea if it will come back with practice.

It seems like an easy gig, but should I feel bad taking money from this guy?

Top
(ad) PianoSupplies.com
Wireless Page Turner and Digital Music Reader / Sheet Music Converter

Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale  
#1299365 - 11/04/09 10:49 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: spatial]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I think the question to ask yourself is whether you would still want to participate if you weren't being paid for your services. If you would be willing to do it for free, then I think you should consider declining to take payment. (Of course, depending on the man's finances and his pride, he may insist.)

If, on the other hand, you wouldn't accompany him for free, then you should take the money in good conscience.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#1299366 - 11/04/09 10:50 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: spatial]
StuartEstell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Birmingham, UK
Depends. To turn the question around, can you afford to give him the time for free?

(Edit - Steven: snap!)


Edited by StuartEstell (11/04/09 10:50 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha U3 | Currently working on:
Various Haydn Sonatas/Caténaires by Elliott Carter/Lots of Feldman

Top
#1299386 - 11/04/09 11:22 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: StuartEstell]
apple* Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 16292
Loc: Kansas
i would.

you can suggest songs in his register and give him company while you accompany.
_________________________
love, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#1299389 - 11/04/09 11:25 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: apple*]
-Frycek Online   confused
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 4614
Loc: SC Mountains
Can he afford to pay you? If he can I'd take it. If not, it sounds like you're leaning toward helping him out anyway.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#1299403 - 11/04/09 11:44 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: -Frycek]
spatial Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 91
Loc: USA
I think he can afford to pay me. He did not hesitate to agree when I stated my fee. In all honesty, I'm really only looking for jobs that either give me more experience/connections, or pay. I already do a lot of things that don't pay and are just for fun.

Top
#1299409 - 11/04/09 11:54 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: spatial]
Kreisler Offline

9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 9746
Loc: Iowa City, IA
You can do whatever you want, but beware a double standard. If you accompany some people "for fun" and other people for money, the ones who are paying you are going to start wondering why they're not getting the "sob story discount."
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com

Top
#1299450 - 11/04/09 01:28 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: Kreisler]
Phlebas Offline

4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4497
Loc: New York City
Other things to consider - not knowing any of the parties involved.

- Sometime people value something more when they pay for it. If he sees that you are doing it "for fun," he might value what you are doing less.

- Sometimes people providing a service for free value what they're doing less, and don't take it seriously.

- Some people can have a lot of pride, and might be insulted at an offer of free service.

If I was in your situation, I would take it as a paying job, and look for ways to do some little extras - a little more time off the clock, suggest repertoire (as Apple said), maybe take him to a recital, etc.

Top
#1299518 - 11/04/09 03:53 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: spatial]
Sparkler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 93
I think you can be a blessing to this guy, definitely get to know him and be a friend if you can, but, do not feel bad about taking his money.
_________________________
Pianist
Accompanist
Piano Teacher
and best of all...
Mom!

Some things I'm working on currently: Bach Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, Beethoven Waldstein, Schumann Fantasy in C Op 17, Schumann Arabesque in C, Chopin Ballade no. 1, Prokofiev Toccata.

Happily playing my 10 yr old Petrof 6'4" grand.

Top
#1299539 - 11/04/09 04:33 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: Sparkler]
riley80 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/08
Posts: 102
Loc: Florida
I agree - give him an outlet and a little joy in life - and as to the money, let your conscience be your guide. Happy rehearsin'.

Top
#1299556 - 11/04/09 05:06 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: spatial]
Carldee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 152


It seems like an easy gig, but should I feel bad taking money from this guy?[/quote]


"My present position amounts to about 700 thaler (money), and when there are more funerals than usual the fees rise proportionately; but when a healthy wind blows they fall, as for example last year, when I lost fees that would normally come in from funerals to the amount of over 100 thaler......."

Extract of J S Bach`s letter to his friend Georg Erdmann. Now if Bach wanted more people dead to make more money, why should you bother about that man who advertise for an accompanist?, are you a philanthropist or a musician?, do you think you are better that J S Bach?.........How I wish I lived in Bach`s time, I could make him a millionaire murdering all his works and listeners with my playing.............

Top
#1299646 - 11/04/09 08:11 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: sotto voce]
Damon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 866
Loc: St. Peters, Mo
Originally Posted By: sotto voce

If, on the other hand, you wouldn't accompany him for free, then you should take the money in good conscience.

Steven


Watch out! The grammar police might want to have a word with you. laugh
_________________________
Damon

Oh yea

Top
#1299769 - 11/05/09 02:43 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: Carldee]
kevinb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 429
Originally Posted By: Carldee


It seems like an easy gig, but should I feel bad taking money from this guy?



"My present position amounts to about 700 thaler (money), and when there are more funerals than usual the fees rise proportionately; but when a healthy wind blows they fall, as for example last year, when I lost fees that would normally come in from funerals to the amount of over 100 thaler......."

Extract of J S Bach`s letter to his friend Georg Erdmann. Now if Bach wanted more people dead to make more money, why should you bother about that man who advertise for an accompanist?, [/quote]

`Accidentia' like this were a staple income for municipal composers in Bach's day, as tips are for waiters and taxi drivers these days. I don't think it's fair to assume that modern musicians should work to 17th century practices.

Having said that, I rarely have qualms about taking money from people who can afford to pay me. I can't afford to.

Top
#1299795 - 11/05/09 04:18 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: kevinb]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 11628
Loc: Oakland
Chances are this fellow feels good about giving you money for accompanying him. Paying someone to do something you want done can be very rewarding.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#1299813 - 11/05/09 06:51 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: -Frycek]
izaldu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 587
Loc: españa
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Can he afford to pay you? If he can I'd take it. If not, it sounds like you're leaning toward helping him out anyway.



Exactly.

Top
#1300217 - 11/05/09 10:06 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: izaldu]
PartyPianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 281
Money is there to be spent. I consider that I do anyone a favour in relieving them of the stressful burden of money. Indeed I relieve them as much as I can. Call me a hero, but no amount is too big for me to take - I'll take the lot if necessary. Haha!!!

That said, I have helped many on there way...no charge.
_________________________
You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others

Top
#1300400 - 11/06/09 10:21 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: riley80]
AngelinaPogorelich Online   confused
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 729
Loc: State of Denial
Accept payment but do nice things for him. Like, give him two hours once instead of one.
_________________________
rep: Beethoven op. 7; Rach 2nd sonata; Ravel Miroirs; Liszt sonnet 104 and Harmonies du soir; Rach concerto 2; Franck and Ravel violin sonatas; Brahms trio 1.
http://rachmaninoff-forever.blogspot.com
http://www.myspace.com/swaypiano

Top
#1300449 - 11/06/09 12:03 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: riley80]
cardguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 481
I'd take the money if he can afford it. If you don't take it, the nature of the relationship changes, and that can complicate things.

Top
#1300559 - 11/06/09 02:31 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: Kreisler]
jdhampton924 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 436
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
You can do whatever you want, but beware a double standard. If you accompany some people "for fun" and other people for money, the ones who are paying you are going to start wondering why they're not getting the "sob story discount."


I am in full agreement with Kreisler; the truth is we all have some pretty sad stories. He could have been telling you because he was lonely, but from what I read he is not telling you to get out of paying.
_________________________
www.jdhpiano.com

Top
#1341363 - 01/05/10 12:25 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: jdhampton924]
spatial Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 91
Loc: USA
Well, this has been quite a learning experience for me.

When we started working together, he told me that he wanted me to accompany him for a song at his church in late November. I agreed to do this, and we met a couple times. I quoted him a price, and he paid me for the first two meetings, the whole time telling me how much he thinks musicians deserve to be paid fairly. Then, we were scheduled to meet on November 11, and I arrived at the school early, and got a phone call from him saying that he didn't realize it was Veteran's Day, and we would have to reschedule. OK, no problem.

Now, I put a lot of work into this, doing my best to give him singing advice, which I'm not really qualified to do (I made this very clear), and we ended up with a nice performance. As I'm getting ready to leave, he tells me that he doesn't have his money with him, and he'll have to pay me at our next "lesson". OK...

The following week, I again arrive at our scheduled time, and get a phone call saying that on the way out to meet me, he fell on the ice and hurt his back. He tells me a story about how two women were walking by and made fun of him. I tell him it's no problem, we'll meet next week.

The next week, I arrive at the school, and wait for him. Fifteen minutes into our scheduled time, I call him, and he says he was sleeping, as this is the last day he is taking his muscle relaxants for his back, and he can't believe this happened, as this is so unlike him. He offers to pay me for the times he's missed. I say it's no problem, we'll just meet next week.

The next week, same thing. I call him and he says he totally forgot about our meeting, and he was just cooking dinner for his son. He is very apologetic, and promises to be there the next week.

Finally, he shows up. We work for an hour, and then talk about money. He again says that he will pay me for the times he missed, and I say it's no problem, as I was already at the school anyway. I agree for him to pay me for one missed session, the time at the church, and the rehearsal we had just had. He agrees, and then informs me he doesn't have his money with him. He tells me he will call me the next day, and we will meet that day so he can give me the money. I ask if the afternoon is OK, and he says "yes, I have to transfer money into another account, but it should be all set by then." As we're walking out, he tells me four interesting things: 1) he is interested in taking voice lessons, which cost $1000 a semester, and this is affordable, 2) his schizophrenic son was adopted, and he actually found him wandering the streets, 3) one of his other foster children had recently come home and robbed his house, 4) he wants to buy a laptop computer, and hopes he can spend less than $500.

The next day, I call him at noon, and he was asleep. He tells me he will take a shower, and call me back so we can arrange a meeting. At 3:00, I still haven't heard from him, so I call him back. He doesn't pick up. I call him several times that day and the next, and haven't heard back. This was before Christmas.

I don't think I can afford to be so nice in the future.

Top
#1341418 - 01/05/10 01:07 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: spatial]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 11694
Loc: Victoria, BC
spatial :

I learning - or life experience - indeed.

It seems to me that you did all you should have done, bent over backwards, as it were, to accommodate him. His alleged health and family difficulties notwithstanding, it seems that he has not made much effort to keep his part of the verbal bargain.

It's probably experience gained at the price of the money owed you, but it seems to me that it would be advisable to graciously decline any further "lessons" with this individual. You can only go so far extending courtesies to someone who takes advantage of them, after which you end up becoming the fool. This, of course, is just opinion and not meant to be taken as unsolicited advice. It's your decision where you go from here with this singer.

Accompanying can be fun, rewarding work. I hope you can find someone else to work with.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

Top
#1341437 - 01/05/10 01:26 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: BruceD]
Morodiene Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 5147
Loc: Wausau, WI
Sometimes we have to learn the hard way. This is why so many teachers get payment in advance. I have a policy about paying for lessons the week before they begin. There is a late fee for anything that goes beyond the 10th of the month without payment, and lesson stop. This is called "cutting one's losses". Sure, I may never get paid for that first lesson they received (or two, depending on their lesson day), but that's better than 3 unpaid or 4.

Also, I discuss payment when they come for their lesson, not after I've given them one to find out they still don't have the money.

I do not do make-ups for skipped lessons, and technically I only give one make up per semester. In order to get their one make-up, they must cancel within 24 hours of the lesson. If a student has paid in advance and don't show, I'm not out of any money. However, I'm in this business to teach, a not make money off of people with scheduling problems, so I will also discontinue teaching a students if there are too many missed lessons.

Having a written policy that is explicit on these terms really helps the person understand that this is something you are taking seriously. It is up to you to enforce it, though. Never be ashamed for asking for money, and don't be afraid to drop them until they get caught up in payments.

BTW, if I am playing for a one-time thing like a wedding, I will have them pay for all rehearsals and the event upfront. I don't want to go tracking down the bride after the wedding looking for a check.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

Top
#1341763 - 01/05/10 06:29 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: Morodiene]
Karen Bretz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 213
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
You can have a clear conscious that you bent over backwards to accommodate this man. You are entitled to be paid because you're a professional. Enjoying your work doesn't mean that you're not entitled to payment. In fact, enjoying your work and getting paid is a win win situation for everyone.

It sounds like this man has lots of issues unrelated to singing. It's easy to be sympathetic and want to be helpful, but that's beyond what you signed on for. There are many outlets for donating your musical talents to appreciative people. When you donate your time, it's OK to enjoy the giving and to establish the rules. Your exchanges with this man simply sound frustrating.

My advice is to give up trying to get paid, take the loss, and have no further dealings with him. Taking care of you is not a priority for him, and trying to chase him down for payment will likely cause you stress. If he calls you and wants to resume, you are free to vaguely say that you don't have time.

Top
#1341979 - 01/06/10 12:08 AM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: Karen Bretz]
lilylady Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 3499
Loc: boston north
Why not send him an invoice for services rendered?

Once paid, you can then say that future services are no longer available.

This person obviously took advantage of you.
_________________________
Let the people who think that life is a race get to the end ahead of you.

Top
#1342481 - 01/06/10 04:15 PM Re: Should I feel bad taking money? [Re: lilylady]
Rachel J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 250
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Take the money. I've had situations like that when I was younger. For example, I was helping a blind composer by notating his pieces. After a while, I felt bad taking his money, so I offered to work for free. He took me up on that with gratitude, but after a while, a very uncomfortable dynamic grew between us, and I had to quit helping him. I don't think that would have happened if I'd kept charging him.
_________________________
Rachel Jimenez Piano teacher in Brooklyn, NY / Author of Fundamental Keys method
Book preview, videos, and support forum at FundamentalKeys.com
Latest blog post: "Learning/memorizing pieces"

Top


Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot
PWPF CRUISE - We're There!
-----------------------
50,000+ ??
------------------------
Can I Say That on the Forums?
------------------------
Forums Rules & Help
------------------------
Donate Options
(help the forums)
------------------------
Free Piano Newsletter
ad (Casio)
Ad (Piano Technique)
Free Piano Tutorials
(ad) Piano Life Saver
Piano Life Saver
Ad (P B Guide)
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Pearl River)
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Forte PG
Nations Largest Concert Grand Event
Forum Stats
50127 Members
40 Forums
100661 Topics
1392802 Posts

Max Online: 1930 @ 06/05/09 03:23 PM
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-
*Dealers
*Tuners
*Teachers
*Movers
*Restorations
*Manufacturers
*Organs
*Entertainers
*Buyers
*Rentals
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Piano Accessories
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Buying a Piano
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Amber Alerts!
*Help the Forums
*Link To Us
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Virtual Piano Chords
Your Host
Frank Baxter - Founder & Host
Frank Baxter
Founder & Host

Piano World, the Piano Forums, and PianoSupplies.com

Amber Alerts!

Our Piano Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |


Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| Del.icio.us | Tell A Friend |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


Tell a friend about this web site

PianoSupplies.com - Click Here


copyright 1997 - 2010 Piano World all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission