I'm looking to buy a grand piano for use in my home and have been very frustrated with the whole experience. I hear conflicting information from every dealer I speak with.

This is the first time I've looked into buying a grand piano and my first thought was to buy a Yamaha or Kawai, brands that I was familiar with and thought would be within my price range. However, the first time I went to test out pianos, the dealer highly recommended the Boston GP 178. I really liked the sound and the feel of it and so was convinced that was the piano I wanted. The Kawais and Yamahas sounded a bit to bright for me. He was selling a one year used Boston for 18,500 plus tax and shipping. The next dealer I went to told me that the Boston and Kawai are exactly the same, though I thought they sounded different (perhaps due to the way it was tuned...) He highly recommended the Brodmann, which I liked, as well. I was concerned that the piano was made in China, but he said the important parts were from Europe. I played the CE 175 which was about 12,000 w/ a promo to have shipping and taxes included. He said that the PE 187 sounded even better if I was willing to pay about $5000 more. I decide to shop around some more and spoke to another dealer asking about the Brodmann 187. He said he has the same Brodmann piano but under a different name, the Nordiska. He said that all these Chinese pianos are all made from the same manufacturer so that pianos are exactly the same. He said he could give me a 6'2" Nordiska for $7000... He didn't think much about the Brodmann parts being from Europe and said per the Piano book, they are pretty much in the same tier so there's no difference. He agreed that there is no difference in the Boston and Kawai.

This is all very frustrating for me. Reading everyone's posts on this forum has been very helpful so I thought I'd ask everyone a few questions.

Is the Kawai really the same as the Boston?

Are all Chinese pianos the same? Should I just buy a $7000 Nordiska because it's exactly the same as the Brodmann? Don't the materials matter? Or is it a complete lie that the parts are from Europe? My understanding is that the Yamahas and Kawai's are made in China, anyway?

After all this, my current thought is, I like the sound of the Brodmann, so I should just buy it, but probably negotiate the price down significantly based on the calculations I read in this forum of dividing the suggested retail price in half for the whole sale price and adding 40% which would be a good price. I wanted to spend around 10K, but was willing to spend about 22K for a better piano. I'm not even looking at the european made pianos because those are way beyond my price range at this point. Any feedback would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Sadly many of the conflicting information you have been given has shreads of truth. It is this fact that makes some of it so believable. Check out Larry Fine's book online or in print, and ours for more indepth information. Use the search function on this forum.

Begin to build a paradigm of your perfect piano starting with size and budget, then to sound. Learn about manufacturing, materials, countries of origin, etc. Take your time and see lots of pianos. Ask your salespeople to focus on the qualities of their own products and make your own comparisons and judgements. Don't seek information about Boston from the Yamaha dealer, etc.

It is the nature of sales to accentuate the positives about your own products. It is weak sales technique to dwell on the perceived weakness or short falls of competitive products, but this happens all the time. There are traditional rivalries much the same as Ford vs Chevy, Nissan vs Toyota, etc.

Shreds so small the salespro must have delivered his spiel through a fine chese-grater.

Kotte, the Brodmann PE series has been around a few years. So far, so good. The Brodmann PE 187 has gotten a lot of good reviews. The Brodmann CE 175 is a newer product sourced from a different Chinese factory to give Brodmann a cheaper line to sell. why would they do that? I don't know. They say in their dazzling website that they were approached by their dealers asking for an entry-level product with the Brodmann stamp of quality. Translate stamp of quality to fallboard name! Whatever!! Often a new lower-priced model is a stepping-stool for boosting prices of the higher model. In any case, Brodmann is pretty secretive about which factory it contracts with for the CE series. I would personally avoid that line and compare the PE line to similar-priced pianos.

Nordiska never made a 6'2" grand. They did make a 6'1". It's a nice piano, but the brand is defunct. It was made at a completely different factory from any Brodmann and has a different scale design from any Brodmann. At the price stated, a new 6'1" Nordiska is good value with the understanding that the brand is gone and the manufacturer warranty dubious. Nordiskas sound nothing like Brodmanns; tonally they are quite opposite.

Welcome to the forum, Kotte. Kawai and Boston are not the same. Bostons are made by Kawai, but the specs differ. The extent to which Steinway played a role in the specs and design of Boston has been hotly debated in the forum; you can spend a few hours happily (or not) browsing the archives on that question.

kotte, welcome to the surreal world of piano shopping;-) We'd like to think that such wondrous instruments are sold in a manner befitting their allure, but it just ain't so. No worries, just continue to audition as many pianos as are within reasonable traveling distance for you.

The first price that you hear is rarely the price at which a dealer is actually willing to sell.

Choosing a piano is ultimately an emotional decision and we often react differently on different days, so multiple auditions are preferred. Re liking both the Boston and the Brodmann, all pianos that you audition are likely to have aspects which you like. The right piano for you is the one which attracts you more and more and whose imperfections you can live with.

We love piano search stories. Please keep us updated.

Patience and persistence.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. This forum has been a wealth of information for me. Can't wait to actually get my piano and join in on the "adults returning to piano" discussions. Turandot, you are right, the dealer told me a 6'1" nordiska. I remembered incorrectly. Based on your assessment that it's a nice piano, I will go and test it out. The dealer said he bought it from a store in Las Vegas that closed so there is no warranty but he can give me a store warranty. At $7000, the price is VERY attractive. I'll also go test out the Brodmann PE 187 once the dealer gets it in next week.

Thanks everyone for encouraging me to keep testing out pianos and not getting frustrated w/ the process.

Kotte,

By all means try out the Nordiska and post your impressions here. As I said, tonally it is worlds apart from the Brodmann, so I'll be interested in reading your impressions.

The dealer has offered an attractive price and been straight with you about the lack of manufacturer warranty. That's good.

However, the dealer has also told you that "he has the same Brodmann piano but under a different name, the Nordiska. He said that all these Chinese pianos are all made from the same manufacturer so that pianos are exactly the same". That's downright silly. If he has a sack of wool on the showroom floor and reaches to pull it over your eyes, you'd better make tracks toward the door.

oh yes, that totally annoyed me. I kept on saying that I wanted a price point for the Brodmann and he kept saying, "I have a Brodmann, but under a different name. It's the same thing, made at the Don Bei factory."

Kotte - I have learned over the years to NEVER believe anything a piano salesman tells me. Either they don't have accurate information - or they are intentially distorting or not sharing it in order to make a sale. Take your time - do you own research - and don't make a hasty decision. No offense is meant to the piano dealers participating on this forum. I've been impressed by your knowledge and integrity. Unfortunately those qualities are not shared by all in your profession.

the Brodmann PE (or formerly "BG") 187 is the one everyone is MOST impressed by from their range, i think, and is a lovely sounding instrument. I've spent and hour or two playing the one in the dealer where i bought my Brodmann upright and i could certainly see myself buying and loving one at some future point. do certainly spend a while playing the one the dealer has coming! if it is within your budget it seems quite hard to better at around that price.

re Boston/Kawai: my teacher has a Boston 178 and it absolutely sings (especially when she plays it!); i found the Kawais i tried a shade more strident, so i prefer her Boston, though of course that can come down to voicing (and indeed just personal preference) etc i guess.

if it came to comparing the Brodmann and the Boston i'd say i found the Boston somewhat richer in tone. hard to believe you'd be anything but overjoyed by either though... keep us posted!

So I tried the Nordiska. I really don't know much about piano and sounds so my impressions probably don't mean that much. I just didn't quite like it as much as the Boston or the Brodmann. It seemed very loud, a bit overwhelming for me. I was ok with it when the dealer played it. But when I played it, I just did not like the feel of the keys as much and again, the sound was so strong. I believe it can be voiced down, so I am still considering it.

I read a thread about the Nordiska saying that the earlier ones were not that great, though they improved. Now I'm concerned that the one at the dealer may be an earlier Nordiska, and may have issues. Does any one have any experience w/ the Nordiska 6'1"?

Pianos can be voiced, but it's best to buy the one whose tone is already attractive - and which has become even more attractive during multiple auditions. Based on posts I'd say that the Nordiska is a powerful piano. There's a real risk in voicing one, because you'd be looking to change the character of the piano. Better to choose one whose tone is the type that you're looking for. Then if you decide to have it voiced at all, it should require only a light voicing. That'll let the piano retain the character that you liked.

I think your impressions are pretty perceptive. The Nordiska K has a pretty light action and a very powerful presence. It takes an effort to play quietly. The scale design produces a lot of partials too. Things can get out of hand. The Abel hammers are amenable to voicing, but as Fogville has said, voicing only takes you so far and eventually the effects of the voicing will diminish.


On the tone, remember that I told you they were quite opposite. The Nordiska tone is deep but a bit thin. I like it but if it were on a dinner menu, I wouldn't order it daily. The Brodmann tone has a broader (as befits its name ) more rounded tone, a more easily controlled action, and it's more restrained in terms of power. IMO it suits a typical home environment well. (All my Brodmann comments are about the PE series. I haven't tried an entry-level CE series.)

I don't know about any improvements in Nordiska K series over the years. I don't think there were any design changes. It might just be quality control, or possibly variability in dealer prep (if any was given). All of the Nordiska K's I have played were from 2003 forward in terms of manufacture. They were all similar. If the dealer is willing to voice it down without you committing to purchase, you might give it another audition. If not, move on. It's a good piano, but definitely not to everyone's taste.

So I bought my piano! Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I bought the Brodmann PE 187 a little over 3 weeks ago.

Unfortunately, I'm not happy with it in my home, and it's not because I don't like the sound, because I really loved it at the dealer's. It's just way too loud. My ears literally hurt from playing it so I can never play more than 30 minutes. I don't open the piano at all, and in fact, I pulled out the music stand and placed it on top of the cover so I don't open the top at all. It's still too loud. I have hardwood floors and tile throughout so I tried placing a carpet under the piano. I thought it helped a little, but not enough. I feel so sad and frustrated that my piano is just sitting there and I can't play it. I even tried putting ear plugs in my ears (how sad) and it will still too loud. I felt the way I did playing the Nordiska at the dealer's but when I played the Brodmann at the dealer's I didn't feel this way at all. Please does anyone have any suggestions?

Should I get it voiced down? Is it expensive to do that? Does it ruin the piano?

Because the rug didn't help much, I'm hesitant to buy curtains (because they are expensive and my windows are really wide.)

Any advice would be very much appreciated. thank you!

I can't believe that I can't play this piano. I always dreamed of having a grand piano and now it's so powerful that I just wished I had an upright. =(

Voicing is best used to modify a characteristic. For example, if the treble is a little too shrill, voicing can reduce that. Because of the level of discomfort that you're experiencing, the hammers would have to be turned into mush in order to produce an acceptable volume level.

As startling as the present situation is, it can be handled. Just be patient and proceed a little at a time.

The ear plugs, are they musicians plugs such as these hearos?

Grands should be positioned so that they project an an angle down the long axis of a room. If the piano is currently projecting directly at an opposite wall, changing its position will help with the volume.

Decoupling the piano from the floor will reduce the volume in your lively room. Supply sells insulating cups for the castors here.

Acoustic foam fitted between the beams will make a big difference and won't create an unsightly appearance. Some acoustic foams attenuate the treble more than the bass. If that should happen, mounting a bass trap in a couple of the corners should rebalance the tone.

Edwards Sound Reduction Kits include foam baffles which can be fitted between the beams. A post on the Piano Technicians Guild archives says that foam fitted under the piano will reduce volume without altering the tone that the player hears.

You could also put a piece of acoustic foam underneath the rug.

If you talk to Edwards - or anyone else - about foam baffles, it'd be a good idea to ask about the frequencies that they'll attenuate. That'll tell you whether you should expect to also need bass traps.

Not to worry, all will be well.