My Grotrian 192 (6f3) was bought in 1991, serie No 142530. This piano has been very rarely used in it's first 17 years because I worked full time since my 1st year of college and went to school at night time until I got the equivalence of MS.

My wife is a piano teacher but she's also very busy with our new born, we have 2 pianos, one Yamaha upright for her teaching, so the Grotrian is as new.

2 questions:
1. The Grotrian's keys are heavy, we had a technician ease the balance holes and lubricated moving parts, keys are lighter now, but still heavy. Does your Grotrian have heavy keys as mine, is this a Grotrian's particularity?

2. It seems that the upper keys have very brilliant sounds (nearly harsh) althought piano is as new, do you have similar problem? My technician told me that the voicing implies tuning work and regulation so it's expensive, and I should wait a few years until all these works are justifiable (he said that because I lost my job recently).

Thanks for advice.

My Grotrian's action is not heavy. I have played Grotrian's of that era and it may be that the actions were slightly heavier at that time. I still thought they were quite good. With regard to voicing, I don't follow your tech saying that you should wait a few years until all these works are justified. To voice down your upper treble should not be that costly.

Rich

Mine does not have a heavy action. Well, if you are used to a recent lightning-light Petrof action you might think it is comparatively heavy, but in the range that's out there I have found the Grotrians I have played to be rather in the middle.

I would describe the trebles on the Grotrians I have played as strong or powerful. Perhaps that is what you consider 'nearly harsh.' This could be a simple matter of taste. I consider the powerful treble to be a virtue and it's one of the reasons I gravitated toward the brand. The treble holds its own with the bass, i.e. the piano has good balance. I have played 'shattering glass' bright pianos. This is not the tonal characteristic I have heard in the Grotrian treble.

As I wrote previously in this forum, before the Grotrian I had a very good Hoffman upright made in West Germany (in 1986 or 1987), not in East European countries as nowadays. The technician did a bad voicing work on the Hoffman, killed the voice and I had to sell it.

Therefore I look for really good technician to do the voicing now. I live in Los Angeles area, I don't know who is really good, my only way is surfing on the net, checking RPT list, visiting technician's website, looking at the list of their customers ... I found 2 guys, one charges about US 1500 for the package of regulation, another about US 1000 (my memory is bad, it happened last year but I can not remember if voicing is included in the quote or not! Anyway the idea is at least I have to spend from US$ 1000 to US$ 1500, and above if voicing is not included in the package!

Regarding the "heavy" keys, maybe my wife is not used to the Grotrian's heavier keys (my Grotrian was brought to USA from France), she always plays on her Yamaha before and the new born keeps her from strengthening her fingers.

How long did you have your Grotrian, have you ever had any regulation or voicing done on your piano? If yes, was it expensive? how many hours were spent on the piano before the works?

Thank you very much.

Hi:

Heavy feeling keys are not always due to a heavy weight. In reality, how much work produces how much sound is what will determine the touch to a pianist. You need a good tech to evaluate the geometry of the action, quality of the hammers and make a recommendation. I would suspect that it could cost more than your quote to get the piano to preform at its peak, but well worth it. Many pianos leave the factory with action geometry problems. Also, voicing can affect the perceived touchweight also. This should be evaluated.

Good luck

Steve

hoola,

Grotrian's don't have heavier keys in any meaningful sense. Mine has standard Kluge keys and they're not loaded up with lead any more than any other brand. Heavy feeling can also be affected by action geometry, as Steve suggests. But I would disagree that there is much likelihood that this problem comes from any factory defect or sloppiness regarding action geometry. I have never played a Grotrian that came from the factory that had any significant action issues. They have dead solid quality control. Far more likely (I think) is the seventeen years of age and/or a steady comparison with a light-action upright. Having played many Yamaha grands, for instance, I don't find the Grotrian action feel to be any heavier than those. Different, for sure, but not in a way that I would characterize as 'heaviness.' Compared to an upright, however, much more resistance. Almost any grand will have a stiffer action feel.

About voicing, for the most part voicing is temporary. Yes, if someone shaves away half the hammer (and does it wrong) you have created a problem (one that could be fixed with new hammers), but in general one doesn't kill the voice by doing most of the standard needling and gentle shaping techniques.

I have had my Grotrian 192 since 2005. It gets a lot of use. The main user is my son, who plays on it for fifteen hours or more per week. I have an experienced tech who works with me. He does spot voicing every time he tunes the piano. I don't get charged extra beyond the normal visit fee. Last time he tuned the piano he did some deep voicing and brought the piano back closer to its 2005 new sound. Nice. I also asked him to raise the pitch to 443, which he did over the course of two visits. One can do these things to a piano without risking ruining it.

A complete regulation and voicing costs different things in different locales. And the cost will depend on just what is meant by a complete regulation. You need to go over that in detail with the technician so that you understand exactly what they propose to do, exactly what outcome they are trying to achieve, and why.

What I meant when writing "killed the voice": In 1988, 1989 I was a complete newbie in piano, so I used tuner from "Pianos Magne" - one of the 3 prestigious piano dealer in Paris to tune my Hoffman upright, I did not know about the difference between tuner and technician. I asked the blind tuner (there is a myth that blind tuners are better than normal tuners. I lived in Paris till 1997, all tuners there still used traditional method to tune pianos, I never saw any electronic devices used in piano tuning at that time - 1997 as nowadays) to voice the treble to make it less deaf. Then the blind tuner used a file to reshape the hammers, because he was blind, his work was so bad that there were filed hammers that touched only 2 strings out of 3! And I had to ask him to reshape the hammers to make surface even. So imagine how much material left on the hammers after his works! In fact this tuner should not do important works such as voicing, and filed the hammers in that way.

From what I saw, what I heard, I concluded that the voice was killed, in fact I was still be able to ask another technician to repair the damage but it was costly so I switched to Grotrian Steinweg (mine is from Paris so it carries the whole name Grotrian Steinweg, not short Grotrian as in USA after a lawsuit and arrangement with Steinway).

From this experience, although I know that bad voicing work could be reversible but it would be costly, it could double, triple the budget if we fall on a bad technician from beginning, and there are technicians just want to get the work without caring about his true capability. Therefore I classify "voicing" as dangerous work and only dedicate it to the best technician that I could trust.

PS: from different books as well as "Piano servicing, tuning, and rebuilding" of Arthur A Reblitz, the "real" voicing is an important and costly work, it implies tuning, regulation before voicing.

Logistically, this makes no sense.

Carl Mc,
"Logistically", do you mean logically? Please elaborate your comment, I don't get it. Is my English not clear enough to describe what I meant?

What happenned to my Hoffman is a true story, that's why I complained "there are technicians just want to get the work without caring about his true capability". I did not know what to say, how to say to the blind tuner to express my disappointment and anger, because he was handicapped and I did not want to hurt his feeling.

Thank you

All the Grotrians that I have played are on the lighter side of average. I assume that your problem isn't related to quality control on their part. You said that the moving parts were lubricated, but how about the key and balance pins? Those should be polished with Flitz or some other metal polish, and then coated with lubricant. Doing this greatly reduces the friction in the action. Once that's done, have it regulated. If the problem still persists, look into having touchweight analysis.

Basic voicing is often included in the price of a tuning.

Simplify this. You had a problem with a blind tuner some two decades ago who worked (badly) on a different piano. That is irrelevant - forget it.

You are not happy with your Grotrian. Based on internet postings no one can tell you whether key action is too heavy or the treble too strident. These are entirely subjective judgements and the only thing that matters is what you like.

So you either have to do something about it - if you can afford it, or else live with it for now.

You are not confident about technicians because of one ancient experience. Go along to your local Grotrian dealer if there is one, or failing that any piano dealer who deals with good quality brands, and ask them to recommend a good, well respected technician to voice and regulate your piano.

He will be able to tell you in about half an hour whether he thinks there is a problem with your instrument. This will not cost much and you can get a feel as to whether you trust him. He will give you a good idea of how much it will cost to sort out your piano. You will make sure that you have explained as clearly as possible what you want and you will be present while he regulates it and together you will find a good sound and touch. This will not necessarily take ages nor will it necessarily cost a great deal. You will use him regularly henceforth to tune your piano and keep it in tip top shape.

You have a very good brand of piano - so just get it sorted out to your taste and get on with enjoying it.

The upside of recently becoming unemployed is that you will have more time to enjoy your piano until a fresh work opportunity comes along.

Good luck.

Pianos of that era had heavier touch weight. I regret that today everyone seems to be put off by that and demands a lighter action. Think of it as a changing standard. It could well be desirable to have a heavier touch in 10 years. I love a heavy touch. Anyway, if you need a lighter touch based on personal preference (most important reason!), there are things that can be done: changing the lead weight in the keys, changing the geometry of the action (e.g., by trimming certain parts of the felt/material that keep the key level on the key pins...) or even by making the hammer heads a bit smaller. I am not a technician, but a good technician can explain this to you.

I paid about $400ish for an action regulation by a wonderful concert tech in Southern Ohio (which included even reshaping and voicing one hammer). Your quote is a bit excessive if it only includes the regulation. For $1500, you should get all you need: voicing, regulation, touch weight regulation. I don't know techs in LA, so I cannot possibly make a good recommendation, unfortunately.

Grotrians are outstanding pianos. However, I wouldn't really refer to your piano as "new." It is not, even though it hasn't been used much. It's time for you to use such a great piano on a more regular basis.

Lastly, with regard to the brilliant sound, I have to agree that the highest two octaves are kind of aggressive in recent Grotrians that I played. I don't mean this in a negative way, but they have lots of ... well.... oomph. I wouldn't call the harsh as the sound doesn't "fray" or "disintegrate" when played at FF. Very consistent and bold in a colorful manner but not exactly mellow. During my visit at the factory this past summer, I found this to be typical of Grotrian grands.

No, the logistics of a blind person traveling door to door in unfamiliar terrain working on many different pianos makes no sense to me. Did he walk there, take a cab, someone drive him? Even in a small town I would think it difficult. If, he had memorized every nut and bolt of every piano, how did he get the action out and what did he do with it? I know there is work that can be done on the action, that does not require complete removal, but other times it does. I suppose he could do most of this with an assistant, but then you are paying for (2) people.
That's why I said logistically it makes no sense.
The logic of why you would choose to let him, is entirely another matter. Perhaps your heart got in the way.

Carl Mc

Carl I think you are letting your preconceptions rule your thinking. When I was brought up, most piano tuners were blind. They attended a special training scheme to become registered piano tuners. The reasoning was presumably that piano tuning mainly demanded good hearing and it was assumed (and may be true) that blind people develop other senses that partially compensates fro the loss of sight. Blind people are not helpless - they are perfectly capable of getting from A to B by themselves. They are also perfectly capable of removing various piano parts by themselves, including the action stack.

Like any field there will be good blind technicians, and weak ones.

AJB

Regarding the heavy touch: Before easing the balance hole, the technician (the guy who quoted US 1500) measured the key uplift weight over 60 gr (61, 62 gr? I don’t remember exactly) , after his work he told me it’s about 55 gr. But I’m not sure if he told me the truth, I don’t trust him because of below story:

After moving the piano to our new house, and about 8 years without being played after coming from France, this piano needed 2 tunings, one rough, one fine. Before the tunings and the ease of balance holes + lubrication etc… the piano was played quietly, no parasite noise.

After the 1st rough tuning, there were clicking noises on 4 keys + vibration noise (this technician charged extra $50 just to clean inside the piano). We told the technician about the noise when he came for the 2nd tuning and to do balance hole work, he tried to fix it but the noise still persisted.

We called him for the 3rd visit to fix the noise. Because of his works that we had the noise, so we’re not supposed to pay him to fix them, but he requested for money to do the work of fixing the noise! After some exchanged bla-bla , he finally aggreed not to charge for that visit.

The noise still existed, so we called him for the 4th time, he was very angry, nervous when working hurrily on the piano, he looked at his watch non-stop, he permuted the noisy keys from the position in the middle to the bass position to see if the noise stopped, it’s Ok when he was there, but came back when he left the house (this time I paid him US 50).

The noise finally went away after his 5th visit, this time he used a turning machine to wear down some black keys and make them slightly shorter (these black keys hit the fallboard and caused clicking noises), he also did some similar works on other places… Because he was very angry when working, and because he asked for money for this visit, I had to pay him in total at least $US 150 for noise problem (I don’t remember the exact number, I always forget bad souvernir) . I paid him because he was already disappointed when we refused to pay him at the 3rd visit, I’d be paranoid but I doubted that he would sabotage my piano if I refused to pay him (although I was always next to him, but I had no idea what he was doing). The website of this technician has Van Cliburn and at least 30 famous names as his customers, maybe by this prestigious list the technician has the right to charge for any minutes he spend on the piano, even to fix problems caused by him!

Because of his irresponsibility for the consequence, I can not 100% trust his words that 55 gr (after his work) is a real 55 gr.

I observe that the black keys on my Grotrian are in fact very close to the fallboard, closer than Schimmel, Kawai … (Grotrian’s owners, please check if your black keys are very close to the fallboard, especially if your Grotrian is of previous generations like mine – 1991, thanks). Before becoming software engineer I had 3 years at mechanical engineering school + 2 years of working experience as technician at mechanical workshop. With my mechanical knowledge I think even with a tighter tolerance that causes black keys to be too close to the fallboard, the piano should not be designed in a way that they can hit each others like that; German are very good in mechanical, and these noises never happenned before with other tuners, technicians.

The technician who quoted $US 1000 did not bring the weight to measure the exact weight of the keys, I will remind him in the next tuning to know if the weight of the key is now really 55gr (I know that this would be different depending on the position of the key, and 55 is somewhere near middle C).

AJB you are lucky, my life is not easy with piano technicians, after my bad Hoffman experience I carefully do research before letting any technician touch my Grotrian; but there are still technicians - weak, notorious, awesome, money driven, bla-bla … it takes time to build the trust, and luck to find a good technician.

AJB

I have no preconceptions on this matter except knowing to continue to discuss it will only make me look that way.

Hoola,
Did he get the action all the way back in, or perhaps too far in? If the black keys did not hit the fall board before, then it sounds as if something is not properly aligned. Good luck with your Grotrian... they are fine pianos and with a good tech I am sure it will be again.

Carl Mc,
Life for blind people in Paris is not too difficult, Metro network covers the whole Paris, we don't need to go down very deep as in London, and French people though grouchy, not friendly still help blind people to find their way. I was in New York but the metro there is not inviting with their narrow, small access as small as a hole (sorry if I recall it wrong, I did not visit New York at least in the last 15 years), so I'm not sure how difficult to use NY metro for blind.

The Grotrian made no more parasite noise now. When the technician worked on the piano, we also thought about misalignment and tried to push everything into their place. Cutting slightly the black key was only the last step after 4 visits of trying different methods without success.