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#1299824 - 11/05/09 07:27 AM About practice hours and stuffs
Basil Joseph Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 7
Loc: India
Hai to all smile

I am new here and this is my first post. Now i am here for a help.I dedicated all my ambitions to learn piano seriously.I am a beginner aged 22.Playing my second grade lessons.i decided to devote this year -from this november to next november- ENTIRELY to learn piano and take 5th grade.

I can practice 12 hours everyday and i have the mind too.But here comes the actual question for me."What to practice?"
In my piano class i am learning two little pieces per week. It is really nice. But to gain full advantage of my practice hours i think experinced people can suggest a TIME TABLE.really i mean a TIME TABLE.

Wat stuffs to practice to gain the maximum benefit? Regarding fingering excercises, Scale and chord excercises, how to start the day, wat for improving various skills etc etc.I am really confused and really wish somebody help me.

I want to know if you have 12 hours a day to practice piano how u are going to use it?

i hope u understood and having a mind to help me.

Much much thanks in advance heart

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#1299829 - 11/05/09 07:39 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Basil Joseph]
Sviatoslav Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 51
Loc: Italy
It's an almost impossible question.
Any routine needs constant adjustments that a teacher should really be able to make. Moreover, what works for someone couldn't work for you; and the matter could even get more complex if you need to change your practice routine based on what you are learning.
A certain routine is built upon strengths and weaknesses; it takes someone who can assess your skills and build such a routine.

It looks that yuo are looking for something to increase your learning speed. Probably consulting with your teacher could be an idea.

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#1299831 - 11/05/09 07:48 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Sviatoslav]
Louis H. Bousquet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/08
Posts: 223
Loc: Stratford, Ontario, Canada
My teacher told me a story somewhat related to this. I understand you are very dedicated to piano. Anyways, when she was younger and going to school in Europe she had a friend she would go out for drinks with after a long day of practicing. One difference between my piano teacher and him, she spent 3-4 hours practicing well and at a concentrated level where he would always practice 12 hours OR MORE!, and she accomplished more than him because he had the mentality of practicing for long hours makes you good when its focused practice you want. Don't devote your entire day, go out with some friends, by the sounds of it get a job, pick up a hobbie. Its great you want to practice these long hours, but don't think that just because you put in those kinds of hours means you are going to get fantastic results fast.
_________________________
Louis Bousquet

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#1299833 - 11/05/09 07:53 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Sviatoslav]
Basil Joseph Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 7
Loc: India
Thank you for the reply.I admitt practice can differ to different persons.

But the real problem is i am not having enough stuffs and excerises to practice.MY ignorance smile

But can u suggest any useful exercises.i checked out brahms 51 excercises and some others.But i dont know which one is the best and mostly accepted.

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#1299834 - 11/05/09 08:00 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Louis H. Bousquet]
Basil Joseph Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 7
Loc: India
Its true brother.But I am searching if i can get my 12 hours concentrated and filled with practice.

i found both of the suggestions are true. Louis really you are telling me that do enjoy sometime, which is really beautiful smile

and one thing too if 22 means over aged? any accomplished pianists you know who started the studies at 22 or more?

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#1299879 - 11/05/09 09:55 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Basil Joseph]
M.O.P. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 454
Loc: Ocala, Florida
Hi Basil, welcome to the Forum!

You might try posting your question over on the Teacher's Forum, I'm sure they will have helpful suggestions and guidance for you.
_________________________
Nancy Fanzlaw
www.MakeAnOfferPianos.com

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." Mark Twain

"The piano was God's gift to music." Lou Mason


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#1299882 - 11/05/09 09:58 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: M.O.P.]
Arnie Eagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
12 hours a day sounds like a real good away to rapidly develop an overuse injury. I would cut back to two 2-3 hour sessions a day, well spaced apart.

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#1299911 - 11/05/09 10:42 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Arnie Eagle]
Brent B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 139
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
Check this out....
http://www.pianopractice.org/book.pdf

I've not read all of it, but I think it has some useful info and will answer many of your questions.
_________________________
Estonia 190

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#1299968 - 11/05/09 12:44 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Brent B]
andyvn Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 14
You can go buy a Hannon book to practice. It has 60 fingers exercise in there. Also practice on scale ( i think Hannon book included all the scale in there). And go on youtube check out piano video, find something you like, look for the sheet and start practicing. Or you can also buy classic piano sheet music book to play. It's maybe frustrated at first since you can't read the notes right away, but keep trying. Slowly first then play faster later. Myself, i don't do 12 hrs a day. I just play when i have time and feel like playing but i just make sure to myself that i play everyday. Ok have fun

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#1299999 - 11/05/09 01:34 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: andyvn]
Steve Chandler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 1279
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Hanon and Dohnany exercises will be good places to start. But it's very important to practice sight reading. That means reading music you've not seen before. IMSLP.org can help, but you'll need a healthy printer. Developing skill at sight reading will help make you a better musician and one that will be useful to others. It will also help you find music you may enjoy learning.

It doesn't sound like you plan to work with a teacher. This is probably a big mistake. Find a good teacher to guide you. Good luck.

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#1300038 - 11/05/09 02:38 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Steve Chandler]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
You should not practice more that 3 hours per day, and you can easily burn out by being obsessed with learning. Take a couple of days off here and there, and let your mind and hands recover. The brain works with the hands in a coordinated effort, so its not just about how much you can memorize, or what you can physically handle with drills, scales, etudes, etc. The relationship of mind and body (hands and arms) grow together over time with consistent work.

It takes a couple of years to develop your hands for basic technique, and then you will (hopefully) figure out how to further develop your technique, and then a couple more years of more specific training exercises as your mechanics take real form (etudes help here). Its an evolutionary process, and it cannot be rushed.

You will feel great one day, unconfident and discouraged the next. You cannot judge your ability day to day (like the stock market!) But instead take what you can from each practice, and over time it all comes together.

The best way to track your progress (what I do), is every three months, write down a list of the pieces you currently play, what percent you are completed (memorized for a performance) for each, and note what you need to work on for each piece. By the next 3 months, you will see that you have cleared up previous issues, and added more pieces, and improved your technique.

Good luck


Edited by ctcrmcou (11/05/09 02:42 PM)

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#1300068 - 11/05/09 03:42 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
ianholic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 41
Basil Joseph, as others said you will need a good teacher. I've had a couple of good teachers when I was little, but my dad didn't want me to take lessons when I turned 13, so I taught myself from then on. This caused some bad habits that went unnoticed for a long time and when I started taking lessons again a couple years ago, my teachers had to correct my playing.

Also, I would recommend that you spend some time reading history behind the music that you want to play. Not sure if you want to become a classical or Jazz pianist, but since you mentioned "professional pianist" I think the more you know about the music you play, the better performer you will be. Study some basic music theory and history if you want to do classical music. Understanding harmony and structure helps the performance, I think.

As for your age, 22 is not old at all, but then if it is your dream to be a famous classical pianist like Argerich, Perahia and Andsnes and Lang Lang (just to name a few), that may not be possible. A lot of pianists these days start at the age of 5 or younger and they have a couple of big name competitions in their resume by later teenage. And I am not sure if there is any major compatitions that will allow any pianist over 30, so that could be another factor against your age.

Having said all those, if what you meant with "professional pianist" was a pianist who works with a local orchestra occassionally or a chamber group, that is quite possible. You may need to get a performance degree first though, since there seem a lot of musicians out there looking for jobs.

Good luck with your piano career.
Ianholic.

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#1300169 - 11/05/09 08:03 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Steve Chandler]
newguyonforum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 330
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Hanon and Dohnany exercises will be good places to start. But it's very important to practice sight reading. That means reading music you've not seen before. IMSLP.org can help, but you'll need a healthy printer. Developing skill at sight reading will help make you a better musician and one that will be useful to others. It will also help you find music you may enjoy learning.

It doesn't sound like you plan to work with a teacher. This is probably a big mistake. Find a good teacher to guide you. Good luck.


+1
_________________________
No more for now

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#1300216 - 11/05/09 09:59 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
AJF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: ctcrmcou
You should not practice more that 3 hours per day, and you can easily burn out by being obsessed with learning. Take a couple of days off here and there, and let your mind and hands recover. The brain works with the hands in a coordinated effort, so its not just about how much you can memorize, or what you can physically handle with drills, scales, etudes, etc. The relationship of mind and body (hands and arms) grow together over time with consistent work.

It takes a couple of years to develop your hands for basic technique, and then you will (hopefully) figure out how to further develop your technique, and then a couple more years of more specific training exercises as your mechanics take real form (etudes help here). Its an evolutionary process, and it cannot be rushed.

You will feel great one day, unconfident and discouraged the next. You cannot judge your ability day to day (like the stock market!) But instead take what you can from each practice, and over time it all comes together.

The best way to track your progress (what I do), is every three months, write down a list of the pieces you currently play, what percent you are completed (memorized for a performance) for each, and note what you need to work on for each piece. By the next 3 months, you will see that you have cleared up previous issues, and added more pieces, and improved your technique.

Good luck


where did you get the idea that you should not practice more than 3 hours a day?
When done properly you can practice as many hours a day as you choose. I did. And I'm glad I did. Art Tatum, one of the greatest pianists of all time, was known to spend upwards of 15 hours sitting at the piano at various points in his career.
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"

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#1300219 - 11/05/09 10:13 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ianholic]
AJF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: ianholic
Basil Joseph, as others said you will need a good teacher. I've had a couple of good teachers when I was little, but my dad didn't want me to take lessons when I turned 13, so I taught myself from then on. This caused some bad habits that went unnoticed for a long time and when I started taking lessons again a couple years ago, my teachers had to correct my playing.

Also, I would recommend that you spend some time reading history behind the music that you want to play. Not sure if you want to become a classical or Jazz pianist, but since you mentioned "professional pianist" I think the more you know about the music you play, the better performer you will be. Study some basic music theory and history if you want to do classical music. Understanding harmony and structure helps the performance, I think.

As for your age, 22 is not old at all, but then if it is your dream to be a famous classical pianist like Argerich, Perahia and Andsnes and Lang Lang (just to name a few), that may not be possible. A lot of pianists these days start at the age of 5 or younger and they have a couple of big name competitions in their resume by later teenage. And I am not sure if there is any major compatitions that will allow any pianist over 30, so that could be another factor against your age.

Having said all those, if what you meant with "professional pianist" was a pianist who works with a local orchestra occassionally or a chamber group, that is quite possible. You may need to get a performance degree first though, since there seem a lot of musicians out there looking for jobs.

Good luck with your piano career.
Ianholic.



ANYTHING is possible if you believe it. This has been proven many many times throughout human history (often to the discouragement and disbelief of others). If a 22 year old beginner wants to achieve the level of a world class concert pianist there is nothing stopping them if they want it bad enough and are willing to put in the work.
The OP does not have to settle for playing with a local community orchestra or occasional chamber gigs. If he wants to headline at Carnegie Hall then get to work and we'll see you there. The only thing that stops older beginners from achieving the highest levels of greatness is buying into the stupid old story that 'unless you start at 3 years old you don't have a fighting chance'.
I didn't touch a piano until I was 13 years old and I had an old fashioned kook of a teacher that told me I could never be a professional pianist because my parents didn't have the good sense to start me when I was younger. Well, the joke's on him!
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"

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#1300367 - 11/06/09 08:58 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
Arnie Eagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
AJF, I agree that if someone sets his mind to accomplish something, it is certainly quite possible.

But immediately rushing into playing 12 hours per day, every day, is still a good way to cause an overuse injury.


Edited by Arnie Eagle (11/06/09 08:59 AM)

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#1300383 - 11/06/09 09:27 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
pianoloverus Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7720
Originally Posted By: AJF

ANYTHING is possible if you believe it. This has been proven many many times throughout human history (often to the discouragement and disbelief of others). If a 22 year old beginner wants to achieve the level of a world class concert pianist there is nothing stopping them if they want it bad enough and are willing to put in the work.


Actually, in many PW threads about this, I don't think anyone has been able to come up with the name of even one world class classical pianist who didn't start very young. And I don't think many would deny these pianists had an incredible amount of natural talent in addition to their young start.

Do you think this is just hard work and belief(no innate talent involved):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFjh49ggsc

Do you think I can play golf like Tiger Woods if I put in enough effort?



Edited by pianoloverus (11/06/09 09:35 AM)

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#1300417 - 11/06/09 11:02 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: pianoloverus]
Arnie Eagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
Wow, that is truly remarkable.

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#1300425 - 11/06/09 11:16 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: pianoloverus]
AJF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Toronto
Plover,

I get your point. But my point is that the power of the human will far outweighs natural talent and something as trivial as age. Do I think you could learn to golf like Tiger Woods? Not a chance. Why? Because YOU don't believe you could.
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"

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#1300426 - 11/06/09 11:17 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: AJF

where did you get the idea that you should not practice more than 3 hours a day?
When done properly you can practice as many hours a day as you choose. I did. And I'm glad I did. Art Tatum, one of the greatest pianists of all time, was known to spend upwards of 15 hours sitting at the piano at various points in his career.


Oh, some guy named Chopin.

You can play 15 hours a day, but the quality of improvement diminished as your body tires during the course of the day. There's a difference between sitting at a piano playing piece after piece all day, and actual quality hours of technical and musical development.

But do what you want. It's your time.

It's funny, I find your tag in direct contradiction to your post:
"everything in moderation, including moderation"


Edited by ctcrmcou (11/06/09 11:21 AM)

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#1300431 - 11/06/09 11:30 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
AJF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Toronto
Well another guy named Franz Liszt put 10 hours a day into his practicing. So did Glenn Gould, Rachmaninoff, Shumann and Scriabin. I just think to make a sweeping generalization like you did sounds foolish. Everyone is different.
And is you read my tag line it in fact does not not contradict what I'm saying. Think about it......
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"

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#1300432 - 11/06/09 11:35 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
lilylady Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 3303
Loc: boston north
This thread certainly is all over the place with recommendations.

I'll add mine as a teacher for 20 odd years in the past.

I love dedication, enthusiasm and spirit in a student.

but...

I think you will be overdoing it by putting in even half those many hours.

I would rather see shorts spurts of study. One declines in accomplishment when first learning if one overlengthens the practice schedule.

Classes?

Are you taking classes with more than one student? or private lessons?

Might I suggest private lessons of an hour? And the teacher should certainly be giving you more than 2 pieces at a time. My adults new students usually had at least 6 new and 4 review pieces a week, as well as excersies, studies, theory, and memorization pieces to work on.

The pieces lessened in numbers as they got more advanced, but plenty of variety to keep interest and spurts of practice.

As well, you could devote some time to listening to music. It is also part of learning. Many nice CD's and now a days, You Tube to study by.

Don't forget the ear training and just fun playing picking out tunes by yourself.

But please, don't burn out with what you desire.

For me? I can't imagine practicing more than a couple of hours with a break in between.

LL
_________________________
Let the people who think that life is a race get to the end ahead of you.

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#1300436 - 11/06/09 11:38 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
lilylady Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 3303
Loc: boston north
Originally Posted By: AJF
Well another guy named Franz Liszt put 10 hours a day into his practicing. So did Glenn Gould, Rachmaninoff, Shumann and Scriabin. I just think to make a sweeping generalization like you did sounds foolish. Everyone is different.
And is you read my tag line it in fact does not not contradict what I'm saying. Think about it......


Ah, come on AJF -

You are comparing serious composers/concert pianists and their practice schedules developed over the years along with their obsession and talent - with a beginner student.

Where's the YIKES emoticon?

;-)
_________________________
Let the people who think that life is a race get to the end ahead of you.

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#1300439 - 11/06/09 11:48 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: lilylady]
AJF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Toronto
Oh yeah. I guess I forgot about the OP and got a little caught up in the conversation smile
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"

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#1300441 - 11/06/09 11:50 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
pno Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 684
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
I always believe my will power can move the stock market...and it does!
_________________________
♫♫♫ ♫♫♫
YAMAHA C2M PE

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#1300468 - 11/06/09 12:27 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: pno]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
AJF, sweeping generalization? Foolish? Not quite. An arguement in favor of 15 hour practice days sounds foolish.

It was a recommendation, and if you read the other posts, others are in complete agreement. I haven't read too many "You must put in 10-15 hours daily to accomplish your goals on the piano".

This is a case of beginner's enthusiasm. And after a couple of years, he will agree that there is more benefit to practicing economically.

Again, do what you want with your time. You'll be the next great composer/performer for sure.

I eagerly await your response, since you like to have the last word. (and you may).

EDIT: Thanks for the private email with your "last word".


Edited by ctcrmcou (11/06/09 01:02 PM)

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#1300525 - 11/06/09 01:46 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
-Frycek Online   confused
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 4183
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: ctcrmcou
Originally Posted By: AJF

where did you get the idea that you should not practice more than 3 hours a day?


Oh, some guy named Chopin.


I just wish people would keep taking that out of context. Chopin told one particular student who was getting burned out and sloppy putting in six hours a day to cut down to three quality hours. That's it. Period. End of story.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1300535 - 11/06/09 02:03 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: -Frycek]
AJF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Toronto
Exactly. You can't make sweeping generalizations because one guy said something to one of his students 100 years ago.


Edited by AJF (11/06/09 02:04 PM)
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"

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#1300536 - 11/06/09 02:06 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: -Frycek]
rocket88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 743
Loc: Southside
Practice smarter, not harder or longer.

I have been following the ongoing discoveries of how the mind learns, and have modified my practice regimen accordingly.

For example, I recently learned a rather difficult piece in less than 2 weeks by incorporating some of those findings. Prior to that, it would typically take much longer to learn a similar piece.

For example, I practiced very carefully and slowly in 2 to 5 minute spurts, then took a short break. This is because research shows that the mind learns at the beginning, and at the end, of a learning session. Breaking an hour up into 6 or 8 short sessions gives many more learning moments than grinding away for an hour.

And, I carefully learned a measure or two a day, then played that section very accurately and slowly immediately prior to going to bed. Research has shown that sleeping is when the "digestion" of the input takes place.

ps...this is not as applicable to technique exercises, such as scales, Hanon, etc, as it is to learning a new piece, because technique exercises are more of a physical stamina growth thing than a mental learning.


Edited by rocket88 (11/06/09 02:08 PM)
_________________________
"The truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God"

Full-Time Piano Teacher & Musician.

Teacher: All Styles from from Bach to Boogie-Woogie

Performance: Blues Blues Blues





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#1300545 - 11/06/09 02:17 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: rocket88]
keystring Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 4755
Loc: Canada
Quote:
ps...this is not as applicable to technique exercises...

How about when technique involves the accurate execution of motions, or remediation of something you've done wrong?

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#1300548 - 11/06/09 02:18 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: -Frycek]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Chopin told one particular student who was getting burned out and sloppy putting in six hours a day to cut down to three quality hours. That's it. Period. End of story.


And isn't that the point. Quality over quantity.

AJF, give it a rest and get off my back and stop being such a moron and looking for affirmation of your comments. I guess since a student received an instruction from one of the greatest pianists of all time 100 years ago, it must not be applicable today.

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#1300552 - 11/06/09 02:22 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
pianoloverus Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7720
Originally Posted By: AJF
Plover,

I get your point. But my point is that the power of the human will far outweighs natural talent and something as trivial as age. Do I think you could learn to golf like Tiger Woods? Not a chance. Why? Because YOU don't believe you could.


If you think that's the only or even one of the top 10 reasons why I can't learn to play like Tiger... you don't have your A game today.

If the power of the human will outweighs talent or age, why did all the great pianists start young and have great talent?

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#1300557 - 11/06/09 02:28 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: pianoloverus]
Brent B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 139
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: AJF

ANYTHING is possible if you believe it. This has been proven many many times throughout human history (often to the discouragement and disbelief of others). If a 22 year old beginner wants to achieve the level of a world class concert pianist there is nothing stopping them if they want it bad enough and are willing to put in the work.


Actually, in many PW threads about this, I don't think anyone has been able to come up with the name of even one world class classical pianist who didn't start very young. And I don't think many would deny these pianists had an incredible amount of natural talent in addition to their young start.

Do you think this is just hard work and belief(no innate talent involved):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFjh49ggsc

Do you think I can play golf like Tiger Woods if I put in enough effort?



I have to agree with pianoloverus. Unfortunately, the REALITY is that the human brain is not the same at 22 as it is at 6 or even 13 (and I am somewhat qualified to make this statement).

Does Joseph have the potential to be a good pianist someday? Sure, why not. Is he the next Horowitz? Well, the odds are not good now are they...

I'm not trying to step on anyone's dreams, but there's no point in giving him false information like "If you put your mind to it, you can do anything." "Anything" is a pretty broad term. I think it includes pretty much "everything." Joseph is 22 years old, he can handle the truth.

Now, Joseph, practice as much or a little as you want, dut don't forget to HAVE FUN WHILE DOING IT.

Best of luck to you!!!
_________________________
Estonia 190

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#1300561 - 11/06/09 02:34 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Brent B]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: Brent B
"Anything" is a pretty broad term.


Or a "sweeping" term. wink

Have a great weekend everyone.

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#1300565 - 11/06/09 02:46 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Brent B]
keystring Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 4755
Loc: Canada
Quote:
... the REALITY is that the human brain is not the same at 22 as it is at 6 or even 13 (and I am somewhat qualified to make this statement).

This is absolutely true. Often, we can do so much more and faster at a later age. What a good reminder.

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#1300578 - 11/06/09 03:01 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
AJF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: ctcrmcou
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Chopin told one particular student who was getting burned out and sloppy putting in six hours a day to cut down to three quality hours. That's it. Period. End of story.


And isn't that the point. Quality over quantity.

AJF, give it a rest and get off my back and stop being such a moron and looking for affirmation of your comments. I guess since a student received an instruction from one of the greatest pianists of all time 100 years ago, it must not be applicable today.


you'd better be careful with the name calling(ie. Moron)
or you won't here for long. Grow up and join the conversation like an adult like the rest of us or get ready to say bye bye
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"

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#1300583 - 11/06/09 03:07 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: pianoloverus]
AJF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: AJF
Plover,

I get your point. But my point is that the power of the human will far outweighs natural talent and something as trivial as age. Do I think you could learn to golf like Tiger Woods? Not a chance. Why? Because YOU don't believe you could.


If you think that's the only or even one of the top 10 reasons why I can't learn to play like Tiger... you don't have your A game today.

If the power of the human will outweighs talent or age, why did all the great pianists start young and have great talent?




We can agree to disagree on this one. If I had the time (or was willing to put in the effort) I could site plenty of late bloomers who achieved greatness in the face of adversity. I know what I believe and it works just fine for me. If you don't think the number ONE reason why someone like Tiger Woods got to where he is is rooted in the basic belief that he COULD achieve what he has then you're terribly mistaken.



_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"

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#1300589 - 11/06/09 03:23 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: keystring]
Brent B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 139
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
... the REALITY is that the human brain is not the same at 22 as it is at 6 or even 13 (and I am somewhat qualified to make this statement).

This is absolutely true. Often, we can do so much more and faster at a later age. What a good reminder.


You're right. The adult brain is, in fact, much better at many things (perhaps most things) compared to a child's brain.

Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with learning to play an instrument.

In fact (though this is just my opinion), I think the adult brain gets in the way of things like learning a new instrument or a new language. We adults are way to good at critical thinking and this constant critiquing and analyzing may be part of the barrier to simply letting new things just "sink-in."


Edited by Brent B (11/06/09 03:29 PM)
Edit Reason: added sentence
_________________________
Estonia 190

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#1300599 - 11/06/09 03:41 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: keystring]
rocket88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 743
Loc: Southside
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
ps...this is not as applicable to technique exercises...

How about when technique involves the accurate execution of motions, or remediation of something you've done wrong?


Sure...then those learning aids apply. Repairing an error is the learning of accurate execution of motions, which certainly falls into the category of learning something new.

On the other hand, one technique goal (of many) is building stamina, and another is increased tempo, both of which I can do for much longer via playing scales, arpeggios, Hanon, etc, because I already know how to play those things...thus there is no major new learning on that level.

Rather, the learning is different...a focus on hand or arm relaxation, relaxation between movements, etc, which for me personally I can do for longer than a 3-5 minute spurt, and which, in the stamina example, does not come into play when one plays just for a few moments, unless the person is a rank beginner, and then some may be able to go longer.

Which is what I meant when I said that those learning aids are not as applicable to technique training.

Thanks for helping me to explain that better.


Edited by rocket88 (11/06/09 04:03 PM)
_________________________
"The truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God"

Full-Time Piano Teacher & Musician.

Teacher: All Styles from from Bach to Boogie-Woogie

Performance: Blues Blues Blues





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#1300600 - 11/06/09 03:42 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: AJF

you'd better be careful with the name calling(ie. Moron)
or you won't here for long. Grow up and join the conversation like an adult like the rest of us or get ready to say bye bye



OMG, let it go.

Perhaps cry baby is better for you?

Kids grow with a skill as their body and mind forms. this is why children in two-langauge households grow up speaking fluently in both languages.

The reason that adults are prone to failure is because of their own impatience of wanting to be good at something too quickly, like they feel that they have missed out on something because they did not start as children (though not their fault). If you have patience and are willing to put in the work, you can be better than if it evolved from childhood. But who is to say? And what difference does it make? Each person is unique. Only society has decided that you must play starting at 3 to be great, not that those who started at 3 became great, because for every 3 year old who started playing piano, 999.99 percent of them never became great. There are many factors and circumstances. There are no hard and fast rules to success, because "success" is (incorrectly) defined by society, not by the individual. If you love to play and are please with your ability, then you are successful.



Edited by ctcrmcou (11/06/09 03:44 PM)

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#1300610 - 11/06/09 03:52 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
apple* Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 15829
Loc: Kansas
playing the piano is so satisfying on any particular level because there is an endless amount to learn.

if you practice thoughtfully and diligently, read about technique and music, listen to recordings, and watch and listen to pianists, you will undoubtedly advance considerably.
_________________________
love, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1300612 - 11/06/09 03:55 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: apple*]
Brent B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 139
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: apple*
playing the piano is so satisfying on any particular level because there is an endless amount to learn.

if you practice thoughtfully and diligently, read about technique and music, listen to recordings, and watch and listen to pianists, you will undoubtedly advance considerably.



Well said, Apple. You're absolutely right.
_________________________
Estonia 190

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#1300615 - 11/06/09 04:01 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Brent B]
keystring Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 4755
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with learning to play an instrument.

I was referring specifically to playing an instrument. I did my grade one exam when close to 50 at the same time as a 7 year old child. Later I read on a site that we should be "realistic" that 7 year olds will progress much faster than adults. The child had taken two years to my six months. The advice on the Web was at odds with my experience.
Quote:
I think the adult brain gets in the way of things like learning a new instrument or a new language. We adults are way to good at critical thinking and this constant critiquing and analyzing may be part of the barrier..

This is absolutely true. Not only that, but we "interpret" so what we practice is not what we've been given. I think one reason for my first rapid progress (this was not piano, btw) is that I was curious like a toddler or a cat with a ball of yarn. I didn't get in the way. If teacher said "do this", then I did it, because I wanted to see what would happen. I had never had lessons before and it was such a nifty experience. I actually thought I wasn't being a "real student" and should start being more "serious". My serious phase didn't go too well. whistle It got renamed the stupid phase.

But we are not subject to our brains as if "they" do things. Surely we can find a way to stop critiquing and analyzing and get the best of both worlds?

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#1300617 - 11/06/09 04:05 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: rocket88]
keystring Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 4755
Loc: Canada
Thank you for the explanation, Rocket.

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#1300623 - 11/06/09 04:15 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: keystring]
Brent B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 139
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with learning to play an instrument.

I was referring specifically to playing an instrument. I did my grade one exam when close to 50 at the same time as a 7 year old child. Later I read on a site that we should be "realistic" that 7 year olds will progress much faster than adults. The child had taken two years to my six months, and I was in the middle of grade 2 by that time. The advice on the Web was at odds with my experience.
Quote:
I think the adult brain gets in the way of things like learning a new instrument or a new language. We adults are way to good at critical thinking and this constant critiquing and analyzing may be part of the barrier..

This is absolutely true. Not only that, but we "interpret" so what we practice is not what we've been given. I think one reason for my first rapid progress (this was not piano, btw) is that I was curious like a toddler or a cat with a ball of yarn. I didn't get in the way. If teacher said "do this", then I did it, because I wanted to see what would happen. I had never had lessons before and it was such a nifty experience. I actually thought I wasn't being a "real student" and should start being more "serious". My serious phase didn't go too well. whistle It got renamed the stupid phase.

But we are not subject to our brains as if "they" do things. Surely we can find a way to stop critiquing and analyzing and get the best of both worlds?


Completing a "grade one exam" is not the same thing as some day becoming a virtuoso pianist. I'm not at all surprised that you progressed to that level faster than the 7 year old. That scenario would probably hold true 99% of the time. An adult's ability, however, to make the necessary neuronal connections to some day become a virtuoso pianist is significantly more limited than a child's brain.

I should also add that the 7 year old you speak of (who may actually be an above average pianist today) is probably not going to be playing Carnegie Hall anytime soon either (and neither will I blush )

I admit that it's been 8 years since I finished my bachelor's degrees in neuroscience and molecular biology and I've not studied the brain much since then (beyond what I needed to know to become board certified in internal medicine), but I don't think there's been a drastic change in the fundamental ideas of neuroscience in the past 8 years. Though I could certainly be wrong about that.

And by the way, if we are "not subject to our brains as if 'they' do things", then what exactly is responsible for the things we do???

_________________________
Estonia 190

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#1300628 - 11/06/09 04:29 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Brent B]
keystring Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 4755
Loc: Canada
When I say we are not subject to our brains, I mean in the sense of habits such as analyzing or reacting directly. We can choose to do something else. Also, nobody is talking about Carnegie Hall - we are talking about how quickly a person can progress. It is often stated that children progress faster than adults, and that may not be true. Then also, where there is a difference, the cause may have to do with behaviour, which can be changed.

There was a point where I was exploring these things simultaneously as a student of a musical instrument, learning a 7th language, and teaching a language privately to two students - a middle aged adult and a child. The adult was, in fact, getting in his own way and we worked with these things directly. It was very interesting.

I don't know much about the physical or chemical aspects of the brain. I simply know what I can learn and what I can teach. Whatever those neurons might be doing as that is going on, my interest is in what works, what doesn't work, what's getting in the way, so that different choices can be made.

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#1301132 - 11/07/09 02:28 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: keystring]
Ken Knapp Offline

500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 816
Loc: Pennsylvania
ctcrmcou,

Moron? Cry baby? Ya know, people in "personnel management" might call talk like that making a "hostile environment".

"Our tax dollars at work". I think you know what I mean. I would have said this in a PM if you didn't have them turned off.

Ken
_________________________
www.pianoorgandepot.com

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#1301156 - 11/07/09 03:29 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Basil Joseph]
edt Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 10
basil, i know your intentions are good, but i'm gonna call you on this one. Do you really want to practice 12 hours a day? If you look at artists who practiced 12 hours a day, like for instance glenn gould on piano or elvis presley on voice, or ringo starr on drums, these people didn't need any encouragement to do 12 hours at a time, their problem was getting away from the instrument.

If filling 12 hours was as simple as finding material to play that's easy. You could practice all the scales, minor major harmonic melodic, chromatic, arpeggios, dominant 7ths, scales in doubles, fingers 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, etc apart, contrary motion, diminished blues, bebop, pentatonic arpeggios, scales in doubled thirds, fourths, fifths, etc., do all that from top to bottom of the piano, that's 12 hours right there, and it will help your technique.

But it's no fun. I think you are at risk of not having any fun playing the piano by making it all about the hours you play instead of enjoying what you do. If you have fun playing, you'll be able to fill 12 hours easily, not that I suggest it, because you'll have no time for everything else in life.

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#1301510 - 11/08/09 09:59 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Brent B]
MrHazelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 49
Loc: CT
What part of the piano learning process do the neuronal connections really effect most; the understanding of music in general or the technique used to execute the music on the instrument (or both)? If an adult was trained in music as a child, but not neccasarily the piano, are they still at a disadvantage learning the piano as adults or are their learning abilities more closely matched to a childs?

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