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#1300548 - 11/06/09 02:18 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: -Frycek]
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Full Member
Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
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Chopin told one particular student who was getting burned out and sloppy putting in six hours a day to cut down to three quality hours. That's it. Period. End of story. And isn't that the point. Quality over quantity. AJF, give it a rest and get off my back and stop being such a moron and looking for affirmation of your comments. I guess since a student received an instruction from one of the greatest pianists of all time 100 years ago, it must not be applicable today.
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#1300552 - 11/06/09 02:22 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: AJF]
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 8968
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Plover,
I get your point. But my point is that the power of the human will far outweighs natural talent and something as trivial as age. Do I think you could learn to golf like Tiger Woods? Not a chance. Why? Because YOU don't believe you could. If you think that's the only or even one of the top 10 reasons why I can't learn to play like Tiger... you don't have your A game today. If the power of the human will outweighs talent or age, why did all the great pianists start young and have great talent?
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#1300557 - 11/06/09 02:28 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: pianoloverus]
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Full Member
Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 259
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
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ANYTHING is possible if you believe it. This has been proven many many times throughout human history (often to the discouragement and disbelief of others). If a 22 year old beginner wants to achieve the level of a world class concert pianist there is nothing stopping them if they want it bad enough and are willing to put in the work.
Actually, in many PW threads about this, I don't think anyone has been able to come up with the name of even one world class classical pianist who didn't start very young. And I don't think many would deny these pianists had an incredible amount of natural talent in addition to their young start. Do you think this is just hard work and belief(no innate talent involved): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFjh49ggscDo you think I can play golf like Tiger Woods if I put in enough effort? I have to agree with pianoloverus. Unfortunately, the REALITY is that the human brain is not the same at 22 as it is at 6 or even 13 (and I am somewhat qualified to make this statement). Does Joseph have the potential to be a good pianist someday? Sure, why not. Is he the next Horowitz? Well, the odds are not good now are they... I'm not trying to step on anyone's dreams, but there's no point in giving him false information like "If you put your mind to it, you can do anything." "Anything" is a pretty broad term. I think it includes pretty much "everything." Joseph is 22 years old, he can handle the truth. Now, Joseph, practice as much or a little as you want, dut don't forget to HAVE FUN WHILE DOING IT. Best of luck to you!!!
_________________________
Estonia 190
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#1300561 - 11/06/09 02:34 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: Brent B]
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Full Member
Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
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"Anything" is a pretty broad term. Or a "sweeping" term.  Have a great weekend everyone.
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#1300565 - 11/06/09 02:46 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: Brent B]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 5176
Loc: Canada
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... the REALITY is that the human brain is not the same at 22 as it is at 6 or even 13 (and I am somewhat qualified to make this statement). This is absolutely true. Often, we can do so much more and faster at a later age. What a good reminder.
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#1300578 - 11/06/09 03:01 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: ctcrmcou]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 661
Loc: Toronto
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Chopin told one particular student who was getting burned out and sloppy putting in six hours a day to cut down to three quality hours. That's it. Period. End of story. And isn't that the point. Quality over quantity. AJF, give it a rest and get off my back and stop being such a moron and looking for affirmation of your comments. I guess since a student received an instruction from one of the greatest pianists of all time 100 years ago, it must not be applicable today. you'd better be careful with the name calling(ie. Moron) or you won't here for long. Grow up and join the conversation like an adult like the rest of us or get ready to say bye bye
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"
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#1300583 - 11/06/09 03:07 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: pianoloverus]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 661
Loc: Toronto
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Plover,
I get your point. But my point is that the power of the human will far outweighs natural talent and something as trivial as age. Do I think you could learn to golf like Tiger Woods? Not a chance. Why? Because YOU don't believe you could. If you think that's the only or even one of the top 10 reasons why I can't learn to play like Tiger... you don't have your A game today. If the power of the human will outweighs talent or age, why did all the great pianists start young and have great talent? We can agree to disagree on this one. If I had the time (or was willing to put in the effort) I could site plenty of late bloomers who achieved greatness in the face of adversity. I know what I believe and it works just fine for me. If you don't think the number ONE reason why someone like Tiger Woods got to where he is is rooted in the basic belief that he COULD achieve what he has then you're terribly mistaken.
_________________________
"everything in moderation, including moderation"
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#1300589 - 11/06/09 03:23 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: keystring]
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Full Member
Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 259
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
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... the REALITY is that the human brain is not the same at 22 as it is at 6 or even 13 (and I am somewhat qualified to make this statement). This is absolutely true. Often, we can do so much more and faster at a later age. What a good reminder. You're right. The adult brain is, in fact, much better at many things (perhaps most things) compared to a child's brain. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with learning to play an instrument. In fact (though this is just my opinion), I think the adult brain gets in the way of things like learning a new instrument or a new language. We adults are way to good at critical thinking and this constant critiquing and analyzing may be part of the barrier to simply letting new things just "sink-in."
Edited by Brent B (11/06/09 03:29 PM)
Edit Reason: added sentence
_________________________
Estonia 190
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#1300599 - 11/06/09 03:41 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: keystring]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 922
Loc: Southside
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ps...this is not as applicable to technique exercises... How about when technique involves the accurate execution of motions, or remediation of something you've done wrong? Sure...then those learning aids apply. Repairing an error is the learning of accurate execution of motions, which certainly falls into the category of learning something new. On the other hand, one technique goal (of many) is building stamina, and another is increased tempo, both of which I can do for much longer via playing scales, arpeggios, Hanon, etc, because I already know how to play those things...thus there is no major new learning on that level. Rather, the learning is different...a focus on hand or arm relaxation, relaxation between movements, etc, which for me personally I can do for longer than a 3-5 minute spurt, and which, in the stamina example, does not come into play when one plays just for a few moments, unless the person is a rank beginner, and then some may be able to go longer. Which is what I meant when I said that those learning aids are not as applicable to technique training. Thanks for helping me to explain that better.
Edited by rocket88 (11/06/09 04:03 PM)
_________________________
"The truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God"
Full-Time Piano Teacher & Blues Musician.
Teacher: All Styles from from Bach to Blues to Boogie-Woogie
Performance: Blues, Blues, Blues.
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#1300600 - 11/06/09 03:42 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: AJF]
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Full Member
Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 81
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you'd better be careful with the name calling(ie. Moron)
or you won't here for long. Grow up and join the conversation like an adult like the rest of us or get ready to say bye bye
OMG, let it go. Perhaps cry baby is better for you? Kids grow with a skill as their body and mind forms. this is why children in two-langauge households grow up speaking fluently in both languages. The reason that adults are prone to failure is because of their own impatience of wanting to be good at something too quickly, like they feel that they have missed out on something because they did not start as children (though not their fault). If you have patience and are willing to put in the work, you can be better than if it evolved from childhood. But who is to say? And what difference does it make? Each person is unique. Only society has decided that you must play starting at 3 to be great, not that those who started at 3 became great, because for every 3 year old who started playing piano, 999.99 percent of them never became great. There are many factors and circumstances. There are no hard and fast rules to success, because "success" is (incorrectly) defined by society, not by the individual. If you love to play and are please with your ability, then you are successful.
Edited by ctcrmcou (11/06/09 03:44 PM)
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#1300610 - 11/06/09 03:52 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: ctcrmcou]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 16292
Loc: Kansas
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playing the piano is so satisfying on any particular level because there is an endless amount to learn.
if you practice thoughtfully and diligently, read about technique and music, listen to recordings, and watch and listen to pianists, you will undoubtedly advance considerably.
_________________________
love, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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#1300612 - 11/06/09 03:55 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: apple*]
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Full Member
Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 259
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
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playing the piano is so satisfying on any particular level because there is an endless amount to learn.
if you practice thoughtfully and diligently, read about technique and music, listen to recordings, and watch and listen to pianists, you will undoubtedly advance considerably.
Well said, Apple. You're absolutely right.
_________________________
Estonia 190
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#1300615 - 11/06/09 04:01 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: Brent B]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 5176
Loc: Canada
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Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with learning to play an instrument. I was referring specifically to playing an instrument. I did my grade one exam when close to 50 at the same time as a 7 year old child. Later I read on a site that we should be "realistic" that 7 year olds will progress much faster than adults. The child had taken two years to my six months. The advice on the Web was at odds with my experience. I think the adult brain gets in the way of things like learning a new instrument or a new language. We adults are way to good at critical thinking and this constant critiquing and analyzing may be part of the barrier.. This is absolutely true. Not only that, but we "interpret" so what we practice is not what we've been given. I think one reason for my first rapid progress (this was not piano, btw) is that I was curious like a toddler or a cat with a ball of yarn. I didn't get in the way. If teacher said "do this", then I did it, because I wanted to see what would happen. I had never had lessons before and it was such a nifty experience. I actually thought I wasn't being a "real student" and should start being more "serious". My serious phase didn't go too well.  It got renamed the stupid phase. But we are not subject to our brains as if "they" do things. Surely we can find a way to stop critiquing and analyzing and get the best of both worlds?
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#1300623 - 11/06/09 04:15 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: keystring]
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Full Member
Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 259
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
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Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with learning to play an instrument. I was referring specifically to playing an instrument. I did my grade one exam when close to 50 at the same time as a 7 year old child. Later I read on a site that we should be "realistic" that 7 year olds will progress much faster than adults. The child had taken two years to my six months, and I was in the middle of grade 2 by that time. The advice on the Web was at odds with my experience. I think the adult brain gets in the way of things like learning a new instrument or a new language. We adults are way to good at critical thinking and this constant critiquing and analyzing may be part of the barrier.. This is absolutely true. Not only that, but we "interpret" so what we practice is not what we've been given. I think one reason for my first rapid progress (this was not piano, btw) is that I was curious like a toddler or a cat with a ball of yarn. I didn't get in the way. If teacher said "do this", then I did it, because I wanted to see what would happen. I had never had lessons before and it was such a nifty experience. I actually thought I wasn't being a "real student" and should start being more "serious". My serious phase didn't go too well. It got renamed the stupid phase. But we are not subject to our brains as if "they" do things. Surely we can find a way to stop critiquing and analyzing and get the best of both worlds? Completing a "grade one exam" is not the same thing as some day becoming a virtuoso pianist. I'm not at all surprised that you progressed to that level faster than the 7 year old. That scenario would probably hold true 99% of the time. An adult's ability, however, to make the necessary neuronal connections to some day become a virtuoso pianist is significantly more limited than a child's brain. I should also add that the 7 year old you speak of (who may actually be an above average pianist today) is probably not going to be playing Carnegie Hall anytime soon either (and neither will I  ) I admit that it's been 8 years since I finished my bachelor's degrees in neuroscience and molecular biology and I've not studied the brain much since then (beyond what I needed to know to become board certified in internal medicine), but I don't think there's been a drastic change in the fundamental ideas of neuroscience in the past 8 years. Though I could certainly be wrong about that. And by the way, if we are "not subject to our brains as if 'they' do things", then what exactly is responsible for the things we do???
_________________________
Estonia 190
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#1300628 - 11/06/09 04:29 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: Brent B]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 5176
Loc: Canada
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When I say we are not subject to our brains, I mean in the sense of habits such as analyzing or reacting directly. We can choose to do something else. Also, nobody is talking about Carnegie Hall - we are talking about how quickly a person can progress. It is often stated that children progress faster than adults, and that may not be true. Then also, where there is a difference, the cause may have to do with behaviour, which can be changed.
There was a point where I was exploring these things simultaneously as a student of a musical instrument, learning a 7th language, and teaching a language privately to two students - a middle aged adult and a child. The adult was, in fact, getting in his own way and we worked with these things directly. It was very interesting.
I don't know much about the physical or chemical aspects of the brain. I simply know what I can learn and what I can teach. Whatever those neurons might be doing as that is going on, my interest is in what works, what doesn't work, what's getting in the way, so that different choices can be made.
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#1301156 - 11/07/09 03:29 PM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: Basil Joseph]
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Full Member
Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 133
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basil, i know your intentions are good, but i'm gonna call you on this one. Do you really want to practice 12 hours a day? If you look at artists who practiced 12 hours a day, like for instance glenn gould on piano or elvis presley on voice, or ringo starr on drums, these people didn't need any encouragement to do 12 hours at a time, their problem was getting away from the instrument.
If filling 12 hours was as simple as finding material to play that's easy. You could practice all the scales, minor major harmonic melodic, chromatic, arpeggios, dominant 7ths, scales in doubles, fingers 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, etc apart, contrary motion, diminished blues, bebop, pentatonic arpeggios, scales in doubled thirds, fourths, fifths, etc., do all that from top to bottom of the piano, that's 12 hours right there, and it will help your technique.
But it's no fun. I think you are at risk of not having any fun playing the piano by making it all about the hours you play instead of enjoying what you do. If you have fun playing, you'll be able to fill 12 hours easily, not that I suggest it, because you'll have no time for everything else in life.
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#1301510 - 11/08/09 09:59 AM
Re: About practice hours and stuffs
[Re: Brent B]
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Full Member
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 49
Loc: CT
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What part of the piano learning process do the neuronal connections really effect most; the understanding of music in general or the technique used to execute the music on the instrument (or both)? If an adult was trained in music as a child, but not neccasarily the piano, are they still at a disadvantage learning the piano as adults or are their learning abilities more closely matched to a childs?
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