"It's Samson, not Sampson."

Samson. Exactly right.

"Is there supposed to be something particular about intelligence or lack of same in people from Leeds?"

I'm 80 or 100 pages in. This book is not as outright challenging as one by Charles Rosen I read not long ago, where I had to keep a regular dictionary, a music dictionary, and an index of CD performances in release at my elbow, so I could make any sense of it. Great book, actually.

This one is a bit easier; that is, assuming the reader already has Chopin's complete works and a selection of scores at hand, and a certain amount of background. It is not for the innocent virgin who is out for a splash in the shallow end, nor yet for the person who intends to swim the Channel.

I would imagine that Leeds is like other places, and people there are smart about things that matter to them.

I was feeling like a real jerk when I thought I had misspelled Samson's name.

Thanks for clearing it up for me. Cleff, you really sound like you put your all into reading that book. Of course, you are doing it the correct way, which I am sad to say, I do not always take all the preparation that I should.

My best to all,
Kathleen

Clef, do you recall the title of the Charles Rosen book you were reading? He is mentioned from time to time in the Pianist Corner, though more for his books than his recordings. I haven't read anything by him (but my first LP of Chopin's Op. 21 was his recording).

Speaking of books, is anyone familiar with Ornamentation in the Works of F. Chopin by John Petrie Dunn?

Steven

I have a very ancient fragile copy of it I got off ebay.

Our local classical station, KQAC, is sponsoring a tour that some of the readers of this thread might be interested in called In Pursuit of Chopin. You can find the itinerary here.

Ted

"Clef, do you recall the title of the Charles Rosen book you were reading? He is mentioned from time to time in the Pianist Corner, though more for his books than his recordings. I haven't read anything by him (but my first LP of Chopin's Op. 21 was his recording)."

I do, Steven: it was The Classical Style--- Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven. Norton, pub., 533 pp., including a pretty fair index. ISBN-13: 978-0-393-31712-1, about $22. Originally issued in 1971, this edition is dated 1998 and has an added chapter on Beethoven. It is a serious book that includes printed example sections of scores, by a very smart concert and recording pianist. Rosen's more recent career has been that of a university professor and author. Someone with a better musical education than I have would get more out of it, with less sweat. But, we do what we can.

He followed it up in 1995 with The Romantic Generation, which I have but have not yet read. It appears to be more of the same kind of material, but 733 pp. of it. Chopin stands alone in having two whole chapters. It is a pretty famous book by now, still in print, with not many others to keep it company. Harvard University Press, ISBN-13: 9780674779341, $24.50

For those who prefer something a little less intense, Piano Notes--- The World of the Pianist was still on the shelves at Barnes six months or so ago. 2002, Free Press pub.(Simon & Schuster), 245 pp., $13, ISBN-13: 9780743243124. Good book; it encouraged me to go further.

I would be glad to find some of his recordings still in release, but the pickings are thin. I envy you your copy of Op. 21.

Thanks so much for the detailed information, Clef.

I regret to tell you that I no longer have Rosen's recording of Op. 21; it was a casualty of my domestic transition from vinyl to CDs (though it's very possible that it may have been worn out anyway ).

Steven

Hello Chopin devotees,

I was wondering if anyone knew where I could obtain a picture of the original manuscript for Chopin Op. 10 No. 1.

Specifically, I was wondering if someone might be able to answer this question:
The doubled whole notes in the bass - were they aligned to the left (as most (all?) editions will show) or were they centered in each measure? I heard a claim of the latter, with the author suggesting that Chopin wanted to create a visual effect... but I won't believe it unless I see it.

Farful: There is no extant autograph manuscript of 10/1. There is a copyist's manuscript, apparently dating from Chopin's time in Warsaw, that does exist (it is housed in Warsaw). Some scholars once believed this manuscript is in Chopin's hand, but most today do not think so. (The script is really very different from his younger hand.) In this manuscript, the whole notes are centered in each bar.

But, in the first editions of op. 10, which Chopin supervised, the whole notes all appear conventionally at the left side of each measure. (You can look at these editions here: Chopin First Editions Online ) I think it likely that the appearance of the whole notes in the copyist's manuscript just followed a notational convention of the time, and that they were not meant to create any effect, visual or otherwise.

Jeff Kallberg

Farful: I forgot to answer your first question. If you can find a copy of Krystyna Kobylańska's Chopin in his Home Land, you will find a portion of the manuscript reproduced there.

Jeff Kallberg

farful originally posted his query here in the Piano Forum:

Chopin Op 10 No 1 original manuscript

There's a link in that thread to the source of the statement in question, a very interesting essay by Douglas Hofstadter called "Pattern, Poetry and Power in the Music of Frédéric Chopin" (of which I was heretofore unaware).

Steven

Ow... brain hurts... too much to read....

Here's even more: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchRe...&prevpage=1

They wanted $118.00 for Ornamentation in the Works of Frederic Chopin. I found it at Amazon for $29.95. Like I need more books.

I was just looking through Chopin in His Own Land, and found that copy of 10/1. Perhaps it seemed logical to put the LH whole notes in the middle of the measure because the beginnings of the arpeggios take up the first part of the measure. It does look odd, though.

Elene

Today is a special anniversary day for Poland: Œwiêto Niepodleg³oœci - the restoration of Poland's independence in 1918 after 123 years of partitions by Austro-Hungary, Prussia, and Russia.

Politically, Chopin wasn't born in Poland at all. It didn't exist except in hearts and minds.

"They wanted $118.00 for Ornamentation in the Works of Frederic Chopin. I found it at Amazon for $29.95."

I personally don't think thirty bucks is such a great deal for a used book. But, I found one marked at three times that on the shelf and asked the cashier if it had been mis-marked. "Oh, no," she assured me breathlessly, "We're going to sell it on the internet."

"To someone else," I replied.

"On abebooks.com," she added.

It happens abebooks is right down the road from me. "How do you like that place?" I asked. "Well, I did," she grumbled, "before Amazon bought them."

I think your post has cleared up a small mystery, Elene.

Mine was printed in 1921 and cost 2 shilling 6 pence back then. I got it for in the neighborhood of $5. Guess I lucked up.

Yeah, prices I saw for that book ranged from $27 to well over $100, even more than the $118, and a number were $50-$90. You can see how utterly arbitrary the prices are.

But we'll see how useful the book itself really is to me-- that will mean more than the price.

Elene

The book starts out with a general discussion (with examples) of how to play Chopin's typical ornaments. Then it goes into ornamentation in specific pieces - it's not exhaustive - not the Eleanor Bailie of ornamenation but I've found the general section of mine to be at least $5 useful anyway. It's a pretty good little reference.

These are USB digital players. You can get one stick for all Mazurkas, one stick for all Polonaises, one for all Etudes, etc.

And you all need to collect some of these too.

Where can you buy all those?!?! I want one of these noses... :P

BTW, anyone know where I could buy a Chopin bust to put on my piano? I can't seem to find one...

http://www.pszshop.com/product_p/21013.htm There's also one here http://www.plastercraft.com/statues.html

I really like this http://www.friendshiphouse.com/product/item-0bf87dad-5096-4731-88e4-93d0c408c17e.aspx

steveMac - I don't think the plaster ones look anything like Chopin. They're closer to Liberace. But I agree the bronze one is quite nice.

LisztAddict - thanks so much for all the pictures. I'd never heard of USB musical sticks before! The zebra crossings are a terrific idea.

The bronze bust in steveMac's link is strikingly similar to this one on eBay:

Bronze 16" Chopin Bust

I love the likeness, and bought one for myself from that very seller on eBay a few years ago.

Steven

LizstAddict: Now I am so sad. I had planned on going to Warsaw next year, but those plans fell through. Thank you for posting those wonderful photos of Warsaw. It is so inspiring to know that Chopin will be remembered, big time, there. Is he still considered a national hero there?

I have a wonderful bust of Chopin, in bronze. It is on a tall pedestal in the curve of my grand, and ever time I sit down to play, I rub his head for good luck. I would post a photo but still haven't figured out how to do it here. It used to be easy.

Garrick Ohlsson is going to appear with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra in my area on June 9. He is going to play both concertos and various solo works. You can bet that I will be first in line when they start selling tickets.

Kathleen

Here is a site on youtube where Mr. Ohlsson talks about our hero. Hit the video tab.


http://www.ravinia.org/ViewDate.aspx?show=126



Kathleen

I cannot imagine anything bigger than Chopin in Poland.

Other subject: For those that haven't seen my face next to the keyboard, here is my first youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG3rtfHzG9c

The video is for a youtube contest which the winner gets free entry to the actual amateur competition in 2011. You can vote by signing up here:
http://www.cliburn.org/index.php?page=guestbook

"Garrick Ohlsson is going to appear with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra in my area on June 9. He is going to play both concertos and various solo works. You can bet that I will be first in line when they start selling tickets."

Oh... nice, Kathleen! Maybe he'll bring the "show" here; he lives in the Bay Area. I wonder if the SFSO will allow the CSO to poach on its preserves. Maybe they'll prefer to keep him for themselves. Who knows how these things are worked out.

The book of essays on Chopin I've been reading has repeated some rather sharp criticisms (which I won't repeat) of his early works, harmonically and structurally. Ignorance is bliss sometimes, I guess--- I didn't know any better than to enjoy them anyway. It would not seem that it rained on his parade, to speak of. The article did go on to say that, even if the shortcomings are as stated, the earlier works are still worthwhile in their own right. That is fair enough.

I did like a comment from an early newspaper report from his first Vienna visit (in his Letters), which described him as "a virtuoso of independent powers" ("Seblst-kraftiger Virtuoz.") A pregnant phrase, if you'll forgive my omission of the diacritical marks.

Fellow Jeff: Trust your ears. The early works are full of delights. I think the criticisms on structural grounds tend to misunderstand the significance and sense of "structure". There's a lot more to music.

I've recently been pondering - and enjoying - the first sonata (the C minor, op. 4). There are terrific pleasures there, especially (I find) in the 5/4 slow movement.

Jeff Kallberg

Jeff and Jeff: I like that first sonata, especially the mazurkoid minuet. Fortunately I'm not smart enough to understand how "bad" it is and how our boy had no understanding of how to write in sonata form, as some authors have said. I do think that the first movement is perhaps a little long. The slow movement is extremely interesting with all the (cruel!) cross-rhythms one must deal with.

Kathleen: I mentioned to my husband that you rub your Chopin bust's head for luck. He laughed and said, "They should make a Chia Pet of him." How about Chia Pets of all the major composers? After all, there is one of Barack Obama. Who did once wear a fluffy hairstyle, though, so he is perhaps a more appropriate subject.

(Anyone want to design an action figure?)

LA: I'm not sure if a Chia Pet would be any more extreme than the piles of buttons and the keyboard-painted street crossings. Boze moj, I just now noticed the NOSES!!! Thanks for the pictures and the video. I'll vote for you as soon as they let me; I signed up.

Poland: Don't you have any OTHER national heroes to make tourist products of? I know that sounds mean, but really, you're going to wear this one out pretty soon! It isn't even 2010 yet!

Elene