Hi Maryrose,
His grandfather was already using the name Ludwig van Beethoven and his father Johann van Beethoven so I don't think he added the van himself, but there is no doubt that he allowed the impression of noble birth (the so-called "nobility pretense") to continue. The family was of Flemish origin and "van" did not indicate nobility as "von" did in German- a confusion that likely made it easier for him to open doors and move in higher social circles. There are so many contradictions in Beethoven's life and personality. How much of that volatility could be traced to his health problems, I don't know. He likely had a love/hate relationship with the idea of nobility and aristocracy. There's much to admire as well as find difficult to admire in this man.

Sophia

Young Ludwig apparently had a habit of dipping his face and head in a bowl of cold water as a means of staying awake. Some have speculated that this, perhaps combined with a resulting bacterial infection, could have caused his deafness. We'll probably never know.

Kathleen wrote:
I do believe that, at the beginning, he wanted to belong. But he soon saw how shallow these aristocrats were. You are correct in that he was for a more democratic society; however, he thought that because of his genius, he should be given special treatment and regard. So ?????, I guess that democracy applied to everyone but him. I can't blame him for thinking this. He was certainly far from average.

Hi Kathleen,
I think it was more the idea that accomplishment rather than birth rank should be rewarded with fame and fortune-- and therefore that he should qualify.


Sophia

Just me, again. Sophia, I agree there is so much to admire about him, but I really (honest to God) have so much esteem for him as a musician that I could just about forgive him for anything...well, maybe not being a serial killer (not funny, I know).

But for what he's left us, I think we have to give him a pass for everything. If we had to live in his body for just one day, I doubt any of us would think otherwise.

Kathleen

At least his face would have been clean then

But seriously, I agree with Sophia - there was so much to admire.

Double post! It's too late. I should be in bed. Goodnight to Chopaholics all over the world.

Good Morning All:

That was quite a "volley" we had going about Beethoven yesterday. I guess we can call ourselves an EOT...equal opportunity thread! We've discussed Liszt in the past, and now Beethoven. So many more we could talk about. And I think it would be beneficial to do so, if nothing else but to get a perspective on or about our hero.

Once again, thank you for being so generous in your responses on the first point in Dr. Kallberg's paper. I think we did pretty well in giving reasons why Chopin's correspondence was what it was. And, to those who haven't read this letters (if they is anyone out there, lurking), please do...if you really want to get a real sense of who he was. He was... in those letters, the "genuine article."

So, if we can move on.... the second point in Dr. Kalberg's paper.

"Did Chopin not understand his music to contribute as significantly to
human expression as did the creative works of his associates? "

What I gather from this question is whether it was possible that Chopin was not fully aware that his music was as signficant as other composers as a way of contributing to human expression?

Wow...that's really complicated (at least for me). First of all, the whole idea of "contributing to human expression" is a bit ambigious. If I understand the question correctly, Dr. Kalberg is asking if Chopin realized that his work was, as an art form, significantly expressive? And did he think he was just as "expressive" as other composers? I could be wrong in my analysis of this question. So I apologize to Dr. Kallberg if I don't quite understand what he is saying. But I am going on my gut instinct here and will just "wing it", more or less.

Of course, there is no doubt that Chopin turned to the piano to express himself. He has said so, so many times in his letters. He was much better at composing a piece of music than he was a letter. Composing, however, did not always come that easy to him. Not as easy as some people believe. Even though there was a period where he was writing so much, it almost seemed that he was running it off on a machine of some sorts. We all know that he labored greatly on much of what he wrote. And even after he thought it finished, it never was. He was constantly changing, rewriting, adding here, subtracting there. Very much like an author of a book who is constantly revising and editing gallery proofs. (I once read that Dean Koontz did 300 gallery proofs...in other words he revised, sent it to the publisher, the publisher sent back the corrected gallery proof, Koontz revised again, sent it back and on and on...300 times! Finally the publisher had to say to him: "Enough, already!")

I believe that Chopin was acutely concerned with getting his writing just "perfect." But, of course, music not being a static thing, it was impossible for him to achieve on paper what he had in his mind. But yes, he was quite proud of his work...his etudes being one example. But he seldom talked or wrote about his work. Why? That's a good question in itself.

Chopin thought his work superior to the works of many of his contempories. But I think in the form of composition, not "expression." In fact, there were few that he admired. Why? Another good question.

Was Chopin really that concerned that he was "contributing to human expression?" No, would be my answer. He was concerned about expressing himself, period. I don't think he gave a thought to the whole "human expression" thing at all. That he thought in the realm of "generations to come," again, no, would be my answer. I believed he lived in the "here and now." He had to make a living, to earn money. And composing and giving lessons were his way of existing. He was a practical man. He didn't live with his head in the clouds as did some of his contempories.

So, finally...I think Chopin thought of his music as a way of expressing himself for himself, not as a way to contribute to society.

Yikes, I certainly need some help here. I would appreciate anyone's comments. Especially if you think I don't have a real handle on the question itself.

Many thanks,
Kathleen

Good Morning All:

Just a short note to tell you that my computer has finally given up. Yesterday, I was having all kinds of problems getting on the forum...it took forever and then I lost power. I blamed it all my ISP server because of all the rain we have had here in the midwest. I thought the cable company was to blame.

But this morning, it took forever to boot up, and then when I unplugged the main power plug, there was a bright blue flash and I burnt my finger. I am working on battery power now and it will soon give out. This laptop is about 4 years old and I have had my use out of it.

So, it's off to Best Buy for me sometime this week to put another load on my credit card. Yikes!

Also I have been having a hard time convincing my husband that he has to quit his part-time job. Besides his cancer (lymphoma), he has congestive heart failure and has been totally exhausted the last week. Finally, this morning, he told me that he is giving notice to his boss when he goes into work. He thinks he can work the next three days, but I know he can't. He is so stubborn!! I know he will be OK (well, not forever), but if he rests and follows doctor's orders, things will go better.

I'm sorry to write such personal stuff, but I wanted you to know that I am still going to be around, just not for the next several days.

So, good-bye for a while. Not too long, I hope. Maybe a week.

My best to all of you,
Kathleen

Well, I'm back. That was a short "week." All one big silly thing, and I wrote about it on the prelude site, if anyone is interested...boring! :rolleyes:

No takers on the question of yesterday?

I admit I don't think I quite understood it and probably rambled and didn't really give a precise answer. But I did the best I could with what I knew and understood.

Regards,
Kathleen

Glad things worked out well with your computer, Kathleen! I was worried for a while there. As for Kallberg's article, I actually find his manner of writing so opaque that I tend to glaze over. I'm sorry not to have any inspiration to offer

maryrose,
indeed, opaque verging into black hole level of density! we'll have to find inspiration elsewhere, I think!

Kathleen,
hope you and your husband are holding up well. Hang in there and take care. Sending good thoughts your way.
:2hearts:

Sophia

Thank you both...

for your kind wishes about my husband. He will be staying home, starting next week. OMG, I will have to practice with him listening. But, luckily, my piano is so muted (for a grand, really strange) that you can barely hear it in the family room, which is just a wall away. Well, at least it will help rid me somewhat of my performance anxiety.

and, secondly, for easing my mind. I thought I was a little dense in that I had a hard time understanding Dr. Kallberg's paper. I know it's a scholarly article, and I know I'm not too scholarly. But still, I thought I did have some smarts. But his paper left him thinking that I was losing it. So...

Well, on to find another "topic" to discuss.

BTW, My computer is working so well. I can't believe I did such a dumb thing as to cover the bottom with foam rubber.

I am going to be creating a few fancy invites for the "one" for the Chopin Concert. I would like to pass them by you all for your input. I will be using PrintShop 20, which isn't the most sophiscated graphics program, but it's all I have.

Cheers,
Kathleen

Good Morning All:

Nothing to "discuss" today. I've been working on invites so haven't had time to be "creative" topic-wise.

I'll be in touch.

Regards to all,
Kathleen

I agree with Kathleen about Chopin not participating in what-is-called 'human expression', but he rather expressed himself.

But which composers do you think voluntarily wanted to aid in such 'contribution to human expression'?

Bach and Beethoven maybe?? What do you think?

Hi Bassio:

Not knowing too much about Bach, I think both of them were concerned about the idea of contributing to the whole "human expression," thing, although I must admit I am not quite sure what that means in concrete terms. Did they want their music to be more than just music? Something abstract, perhaps? I don't have a clue.

I do know that Bach was very religious and everything he composed, he offered up to God. As far as Beethoven, I'm pretty sure he DIDN'T offer his music to God. He was quite mad with Him most of the time.

Thank you, Bassio. It's good hearing from you again. Hope you are well and happy.

Kathlee

Kathleen, there is one line in that awful Copying Beethoven movie I did like, when Beethoven exclaimed, "God whispers to most people, he shouts at me!"

Yes, Frycek....I do seem to recall that line. So I wonder if he was giving God some credit for his genius. I doubt it, don't you? But I certainly could be wrong.

Does anyone know the religious beliefs of Beethoven? I know he was supposed to shake his fist at him right before he died. This, of course, could just be a rumor.

My sister loved that movie because of the young woman's compassion for him. That she so admired his genius, she was willing to put up with all his terrible behavior and put-downs. Through this young woman, we did get a glimpse of his human side a bit. But at the end, where she is conducting the orchestra and he is following her hand gestures was so ridiculous, I had to laugh. If they would have left that part out, I think the movie did have some merit. Ed Harris did a super job playing Beethoven. I think he had him down almost perfectly, in my opinion.

Kathleen

I still can't imagine Hershey "being" Beethoven! Chopin, yes. Gershwin, very much so. Liszt - definitely. But a stocky fifty-year-old? Tricky.

We all know how creative Hershey is.

I think he can do just about anything he sets his mind to. And I do believe I read somewhere that he was going to use "something" to heft himself up a bit. He certainly has no intention of gaining weight for the role, for right after his Beethoven closes, he starts a run of Chopin.

What I find interesting is how he can separate himself from these people and just be Hershey. One would think something of the characters would rub off on him, at least for an hour or two.

I wonder if this has ever happened. If he's around, I hope he answers. Hi Hersh:

Kathleen

Stocky 50 year old??? I WAS BORN THAT WAY!!!

Actually, the wonderful part of acting is to be able to create these characters, and do this kind of thing... and with all the theatrical trickery available to me, it should be fun... also the script does a good deal of work for me...it leads me in the correct direction. But truth is, I hope it is as interesting as the fun I am having with it.

As for me - I am back in Paris for but a week (I can breathe here - I so love it...) But alas, must head back to the US real soon... anyway...

Miss you all, trying some R & R and a little Bach preludes and fugues for the weak. Good for my health!

HUGS. H

And who does this remind us of?

What? R and R...as in rock n' roll??


Kathleen

(I posted this recital program to a separate thread in the Pianist Corner thinking more people would see it, but now realize that the opposite is probably true.)

From a performance by the Andrzej Jagodziński Trio in Washington, D.C. last spring:

This is really something, Sotto Voce. I'd be very curious to hear some of it although, I must confess, a bit afraid also.

But I think it's great that these people have taken the must beautiful music in the world and have "experimented" with it. I remember Peyton doing a super improv of the Spring Song, which I thought was beautiful. So....I guess I have to keep an open mind.

Thanks for posting this.

Kathleen

I believe that Ragnhild mentioned their videos in that other thread.

I share your trepidation, Kathleen! That, plus sheer lack of time, has prevented me from even thinking about searching You Tube for anything by these guys.

Steven

I find that when I am busy I like to waste time doing things like searching on You Tube (alas) so I did. There's only one thing by Jagodziński:

A video from 2002


It isn't Jazz and it isn't Chopin; it's sentimental MOR. But there are a few tiny Chopin-influenced ornaments and some nice Polish girls in national costume

I watched the videos I found here
http://jagodzinski.art.pl/video.htm

I liked it, but I have always been into lots of different music.
I'm also a fan of Tord Gustavsen Trio (A Norwegian jazz Trio with a very gifted classical trained, gospel-inspired pianist).

It's not Chopin, it's jazz inspired by his music


Ragnhild

Y'all dar git a gandar o' thissar:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/15766.html#000022

Dem varmints gone done dissin' our Preludes concert!

Thanks for that link, Ragnhild. I was really curious to know what they sounded like after reading Sotto Voce's post. I like jazz and found I could enjoy this so long as I remembered what you said - "It's not Chopin, it's jazz inspired by his music."