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#1299824 - 11/05/09 07:27 AM About practice hours and stuffs
Basil Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 36
Loc: India
Hai to all smile

I am new here and this is my first post. Now i am here for a help.I dedicated all my ambitions to learn piano seriously.I am a beginner aged 22.Playing my second grade lessons.i decided to devote this year -from this november to next november- ENTIRELY to learn piano and take 5th grade.

I can practice 12 hours everyday and i have the mind too.But here comes the actual question for me."What to practice?"
In my piano class i am learning two little pieces per week. It is really nice. But to gain full advantage of my practice hours i think experinced people can suggest a TIME TABLE.really i mean a TIME TABLE.

Wat stuffs to practice to gain the maximum benefit? Regarding fingering excercises, Scale and chord excercises, how to start the day, wat for improving various skills etc etc.I am really confused and really wish somebody help me.

I want to know if you have 12 hours a day to practice piano how u are going to use it?

i hope u understood and having a mind to help me.

Much much thanks in advance heart

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#1299829 - 11/05/09 07:39 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Basil Joseph]
Sviatoslav Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 96
Loc: Italy, Torino
It's an almost impossible question.
Any routine needs constant adjustments that a teacher should really be able to make. Moreover, what works for someone couldn't work for you; and the matter could even get more complex if you need to change your practice routine based on what you are learning.
A certain routine is built upon strengths and weaknesses; it takes someone who can assess your skills and build such a routine.

It looks that yuo are looking for something to increase your learning speed. Probably consulting with your teacher could be an idea.

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#1299831 - 11/05/09 07:48 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Sviatoslav]
Louis H. Bousquet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/08
Posts: 350
Loc: Stratford, Ontario, Canada
My teacher told me a story somewhat related to this. I understand you are very dedicated to piano. Anyways, when she was younger and going to school in Europe she had a friend she would go out for drinks with after a long day of practicing. One difference between my piano teacher and him, she spent 3-4 hours practicing well and at a concentrated level where he would always practice 12 hours OR MORE!, and she accomplished more than him because he had the mentality of practicing for long hours makes you good when its focused practice you want. Don't devote your entire day, go out with some friends, by the sounds of it get a job, pick up a hobbie. Its great you want to practice these long hours, but don't think that just because you put in those kinds of hours means you are going to get fantastic results fast.
_________________________
Louis Bousquet

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#1299833 - 11/05/09 07:53 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Sviatoslav]
Basil Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 36
Loc: India
Thank you for the reply.I admitt practice can differ to different persons.

But the real problem is i am not having enough stuffs and excerises to practice.MY ignorance smile

But can u suggest any useful exercises.i checked out brahms 51 excercises and some others.But i dont know which one is the best and mostly accepted.

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#1299834 - 11/05/09 08:00 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Louis H. Bousquet]
Basil Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 36
Loc: India
Its true brother.But I am searching if i can get my 12 hours concentrated and filled with practice.

i found both of the suggestions are true. Louis really you are telling me that do enjoy sometime, which is really beautiful smile

and one thing too if 22 means over aged? any accomplished pianists you know who started the studies at 22 or more?

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#1299879 - 11/05/09 09:55 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Basil Joseph]
M.O.P. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 884
Loc: Ocala, Florida
Hi Basil, welcome to the Forum!

You might try posting your question over on the Teacher's Forum, I'm sure they will have helpful suggestions and guidance for you.
_________________________
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#1299882 - 11/05/09 09:58 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: M.O.P.]
Arnie Eagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
12 hours a day sounds like a real good away to rapidly develop an overuse injury. I would cut back to two 2-3 hour sessions a day, well spaced apart.

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#1299911 - 11/05/09 10:42 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Arnie Eagle]
Brent B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 343
Loc: New Jersey/Philadelphia
Check this out....
http://www.pianopractice.org/book.pdf

I've not read all of it, but I think it has some useful info and will answer many of your questions.
_________________________
Estonia 190

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#1299968 - 11/05/09 12:44 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Brent B]
andyvn Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 14
You can go buy a Hannon book to practice. It has 60 fingers exercise in there. Also practice on scale ( i think Hannon book included all the scale in there). And go on youtube check out piano video, find something you like, look for the sheet and start practicing. Or you can also buy classic piano sheet music book to play. It's maybe frustrated at first since you can't read the notes right away, but keep trying. Slowly first then play faster later. Myself, i don't do 12 hrs a day. I just play when i have time and feel like playing but i just make sure to myself that i play everyday. Ok have fun

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#1299999 - 11/05/09 01:34 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: andyvn]
Steve Chandler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 1949
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Hanon and Dohnany exercises will be good places to start. But it's very important to practice sight reading. That means reading music you've not seen before. IMSLP.org can help, but you'll need a healthy printer. Developing skill at sight reading will help make you a better musician and one that will be useful to others. It will also help you find music you may enjoy learning.

It doesn't sound like you plan to work with a teacher. This is probably a big mistake. Find a good teacher to guide you. Good luck.

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#1300038 - 11/05/09 02:38 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Steve Chandler]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 83
You should not practice more that 3 hours per day, and you can easily burn out by being obsessed with learning. Take a couple of days off here and there, and let your mind and hands recover. The brain works with the hands in a coordinated effort, so its not just about how much you can memorize, or what you can physically handle with drills, scales, etudes, etc. The relationship of mind and body (hands and arms) grow together over time with consistent work.

It takes a couple of years to develop your hands for basic technique, and then you will (hopefully) figure out how to further develop your technique, and then a couple more years of more specific training exercises as your mechanics take real form (etudes help here). Its an evolutionary process, and it cannot be rushed.

You will feel great one day, unconfident and discouraged the next. You cannot judge your ability day to day (like the stock market!) But instead take what you can from each practice, and over time it all comes together.

The best way to track your progress (what I do), is every three months, write down a list of the pieces you currently play, what percent you are completed (memorized for a performance) for each, and note what you need to work on for each piece. By the next 3 months, you will see that you have cleared up previous issues, and added more pieces, and improved your technique.

Good luck


Edited by ctcrmcou (11/05/09 02:42 PM)

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#1300068 - 11/05/09 03:42 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
ianholic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 65
Basil Joseph, as others said you will need a good teacher. I've had a couple of good teachers when I was little, but my dad didn't want me to take lessons when I turned 13, so I taught myself from then on. This caused some bad habits that went unnoticed for a long time and when I started taking lessons again a couple years ago, my teachers had to correct my playing.

Also, I would recommend that you spend some time reading history behind the music that you want to play. Not sure if you want to become a classical or Jazz pianist, but since you mentioned "professional pianist" I think the more you know about the music you play, the better performer you will be. Study some basic music theory and history if you want to do classical music. Understanding harmony and structure helps the performance, I think.

As for your age, 22 is not old at all, but then if it is your dream to be a famous classical pianist like Argerich, Perahia and Andsnes and Lang Lang (just to name a few), that may not be possible. A lot of pianists these days start at the age of 5 or younger and they have a couple of big name competitions in their resume by later teenage. And I am not sure if there is any major compatitions that will allow any pianist over 30, so that could be another factor against your age.

Having said all those, if what you meant with "professional pianist" was a pianist who works with a local orchestra occassionally or a chamber group, that is quite possible. You may need to get a performance degree first though, since there seem a lot of musicians out there looking for jobs.

Good luck with your piano career.
Ianholic.

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#1300169 - 11/05/09 08:03 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: Steve Chandler]
scepticalforumguy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1124
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Hanon and Dohnany exercises will be good places to start. But it's very important to practice sight reading. That means reading music you've not seen before. IMSLP.org can help, but you'll need a healthy printer. Developing skill at sight reading will help make you a better musician and one that will be useful to others. It will also help you find music you may enjoy learning.

It doesn't sound like you plan to work with a teacher. This is probably a big mistake. Find a good teacher to guide you. Good luck.


+1
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1300216 - 11/05/09 09:59 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: ctcrmcou
You should not practice more that 3 hours per day, and you can easily burn out by being obsessed with learning. Take a couple of days off here and there, and let your mind and hands recover. The brain works with the hands in a coordinated effort, so its not just about how much you can memorize, or what you can physically handle with drills, scales, etudes, etc. The relationship of mind and body (hands and arms) grow together over time with consistent work.

It takes a couple of years to develop your hands for basic technique, and then you will (hopefully) figure out how to further develop your technique, and then a couple more years of more specific training exercises as your mechanics take real form (etudes help here). Its an evolutionary process, and it cannot be rushed.

You will feel great one day, unconfident and discouraged the next. You cannot judge your ability day to day (like the stock market!) But instead take what you can from each practice, and over time it all comes together.

The best way to track your progress (what I do), is every three months, write down a list of the pieces you currently play, what percent you are completed (memorized for a performance) for each, and note what you need to work on for each piece. By the next 3 months, you will see that you have cleared up previous issues, and added more pieces, and improved your technique.

Good luck


where did you get the idea that you should not practice more than 3 hours a day?
When done properly you can practice as many hours a day as you choose. I did. And I'm glad I did. Art Tatum, one of the greatest pianists of all time, was known to spend upwards of 15 hours sitting at the piano at various points in his career.

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#1300219 - 11/05/09 10:13 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ianholic]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: ianholic
Basil Joseph, as others said you will need a good teacher. I've had a couple of good teachers when I was little, but my dad didn't want me to take lessons when I turned 13, so I taught myself from then on. This caused some bad habits that went unnoticed for a long time and when I started taking lessons again a couple years ago, my teachers had to correct my playing.

Also, I would recommend that you spend some time reading history behind the music that you want to play. Not sure if you want to become a classical or Jazz pianist, but since you mentioned "professional pianist" I think the more you know about the music you play, the better performer you will be. Study some basic music theory and history if you want to do classical music. Understanding harmony and structure helps the performance, I think.

As for your age, 22 is not old at all, but then if it is your dream to be a famous classical pianist like Argerich, Perahia and Andsnes and Lang Lang (just to name a few), that may not be possible. A lot of pianists these days start at the age of 5 or younger and they have a couple of big name competitions in their resume by later teenage. And I am not sure if there is any major compatitions that will allow any pianist over 30, so that could be another factor against your age.

Having said all those, if what you meant with "professional pianist" was a pianist who works with a local orchestra occassionally or a chamber group, that is quite possible. You may need to get a performance degree first though, since there seem a lot of musicians out there looking for jobs.

Good luck with your piano career.
Ianholic.



ANYTHING is possible if you believe it. This has been proven many many times throughout human history (often to the discouragement and disbelief of others). If a 22 year old beginner wants to achieve the level of a world class concert pianist there is nothing stopping them if they want it bad enough and are willing to put in the work.
The OP does not have to settle for playing with a local community orchestra or occasional chamber gigs. If he wants to headline at Carnegie Hall then get to work and we'll see you there. The only thing that stops older beginners from achieving the highest levels of greatness is buying into the stupid old story that 'unless you start at 3 years old you don't have a fighting chance'.
I didn't touch a piano until I was 13 years old and I had an old fashioned kook of a teacher that told me I could never be a professional pianist because my parents didn't have the good sense to start me when I was younger. Well, the joke's on him!

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#1300367 - 11/06/09 08:58 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
Arnie Eagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
AJF, I agree that if someone sets his mind to accomplish something, it is certainly quite possible.

But immediately rushing into playing 12 hours per day, every day, is still a good way to cause an overuse injury.


Edited by Arnie Eagle (11/06/09 08:59 AM)

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#1300383 - 11/06/09 09:27 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14229
Originally Posted By: AJF

ANYTHING is possible if you believe it. This has been proven many many times throughout human history (often to the discouragement and disbelief of others). If a 22 year old beginner wants to achieve the level of a world class concert pianist there is nothing stopping them if they want it bad enough and are willing to put in the work.


Actually, in many PW threads about this, I don't think anyone has been able to come up with the name of even one world class classical pianist who didn't start very young. And I don't think many would deny these pianists had an incredible amount of natural talent in addition to their young start.

Do you think this is just hard work and belief(no innate talent involved):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFjh49ggsc

Do you think I can play golf like Tiger Woods if I put in enough effort?



Edited by pianoloverus (11/06/09 09:35 AM)

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#1300417 - 11/06/09 11:02 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: pianoloverus]
Arnie Eagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
Wow, that is truly remarkable.

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#1300425 - 11/06/09 11:16 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: pianoloverus]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: Toronto
Plover,

I get your point. But my point is that the power of the human will far outweighs natural talent and something as trivial as age. Do I think you could learn to golf like Tiger Woods? Not a chance. Why? Because YOU don't believe you could.

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#1300426 - 11/06/09 11:17 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: AJF

where did you get the idea that you should not practice more than 3 hours a day?
When done properly you can practice as many hours a day as you choose. I did. And I'm glad I did. Art Tatum, one of the greatest pianists of all time, was known to spend upwards of 15 hours sitting at the piano at various points in his career.


Oh, some guy named Chopin.

You can play 15 hours a day, but the quality of improvement diminished as your body tires during the course of the day. There's a difference between sitting at a piano playing piece after piece all day, and actual quality hours of technical and musical development.

But do what you want. It's your time.

It's funny, I find your tag in direct contradiction to your post:
"everything in moderation, including moderation"


Edited by ctcrmcou (11/06/09 11:21 AM)

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#1300431 - 11/06/09 11:30 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: Toronto
Well another guy named Franz Liszt put 10 hours a day into his practicing. So did Glenn Gould, Rachmaninoff, Shumann and Scriabin. I just think to make a sweeping generalization like you did sounds foolish. Everyone is different.
And is you read my tag line it in fact does not not contradict what I'm saying. Think about it......

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#1300432 - 11/06/09 11:35 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4595
Loc: boston north
This thread certainly is all over the place with recommendations.

I'll add mine as a teacher for 20 odd years in the past.

I love dedication, enthusiasm and spirit in a student.

but...

I think you will be overdoing it by putting in even half those many hours.

I would rather see shorts spurts of study. One declines in accomplishment when first learning if one overlengthens the practice schedule.

Classes?

Are you taking classes with more than one student? or private lessons?

Might I suggest private lessons of an hour? And the teacher should certainly be giving you more than 2 pieces at a time. My adults new students usually had at least 6 new and 4 review pieces a week, as well as excersies, studies, theory, and memorization pieces to work on.

The pieces lessened in numbers as they got more advanced, but plenty of variety to keep interest and spurts of practice.

As well, you could devote some time to listening to music. It is also part of learning. Many nice CD's and now a days, You Tube to study by.

Don't forget the ear training and just fun playing picking out tunes by yourself.

But please, don't burn out with what you desire.

For me? I can't imagine practicing more than a couple of hours with a break in between.

LL
_________________________
Let the people who think that life is a race get to the end ahead of you.

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#1300436 - 11/06/09 11:38 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4595
Loc: boston north
Originally Posted By: AJF
Well another guy named Franz Liszt put 10 hours a day into his practicing. So did Glenn Gould, Rachmaninoff, Shumann and Scriabin. I just think to make a sweeping generalization like you did sounds foolish. Everyone is different.
And is you read my tag line it in fact does not not contradict what I'm saying. Think about it......


Ah, come on AJF -

You are comparing serious composers/concert pianists and their practice schedules developed over the years along with their obsession and talent - with a beginner student.

Where's the YIKES emoticon?

;-)
_________________________
Let the people who think that life is a race get to the end ahead of you.

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#1300439 - 11/06/09 11:48 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: lilylady]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: Toronto
Oh yeah. I guess I forgot about the OP and got a little caught up in the conversation smile

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#1300441 - 11/06/09 11:50 AM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: AJF]
pno Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1019
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
I always believe my will power can move the stock market...and it does!
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YAMAHA C2M PE

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#1300468 - 11/06/09 12:27 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: pno]
ctcrmcou Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 83
AJF, sweeping generalization? Foolish? Not quite. An arguement in favor of 15 hour practice days sounds foolish.

It was a recommendation, and if you read the other posts, others are in complete agreement. I haven't read too many "You must put in 10-15 hours daily to accomplish your goals on the piano".

This is a case of beginner's enthusiasm. And after a couple of years, he will agree that there is more benefit to practicing economically.

Again, do what you want with your time. You'll be the next great composer/performer for sure.

I eagerly await your response, since you like to have the last word. (and you may).

EDIT: Thanks for the private email with your "last word".


Edited by ctcrmcou (11/06/09 01:02 PM)

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#1300525 - 11/06/09 01:46 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: ctcrmcou]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5309
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: ctcrmcou
Originally Posted By: AJF

where did you get the idea that you should not practice more than 3 hours a day?


Oh, some guy named Chopin.


I just wish people would keep taking that out of context. Chopin told one particular student who was getting burned out and sloppy putting in six hours a day to cut down to three quality hours. That's it. Period. End of story.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1300535 - 11/06/09 02:03 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: -Frycek]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: Toronto
Exactly. You can't make sweeping generalizations because one guy said something to one of his students 100 years ago.


Edited by AJF (11/06/09 02:04 PM)

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#1300536 - 11/06/09 02:06 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: -Frycek]
rocket88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 2346
Loc: Southside
Practice smarter, not harder or longer.

I have been following the ongoing discoveries of how the mind learns, and have modified my practice regimen accordingly.

For example, I recently learned a rather difficult piece in less than 2 weeks by incorporating some of those findings. Prior to that, it would typically take much longer to learn a similar piece.

For example, I practiced very carefully and slowly in 2 to 5 minute spurts, then took a short break. This is because research shows that the mind learns at the beginning, and at the end, of a learning session. Breaking an hour up into 6 or 8 short sessions gives many more learning moments than grinding away for an hour.

And, I carefully learned a measure or two a day, then played that section very accurately and slowly immediately prior to going to bed. Research has shown that sleeping is when the "digestion" of the input takes place.

ps...this is not as applicable to technique exercises, such as scales, Hanon, etc, as it is to learning a new piece, because technique exercises are more of a physical stamina growth thing than a mental learning.


Edited by rocket88 (11/06/09 02:08 PM)
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

"They may call me a rube and a hick, but I would rather be the man who bought the Brooklyn Bridge than the man who sold it." Will Rogers

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#1300545 - 11/06/09 02:17 PM Re: About practice hours and stuffs [Re: rocket88]
keystring Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 6878
Loc: Canada
Quote:
ps...this is not as applicable to technique exercises...

How about when technique involves the accurate execution of motions, or remediation of something you've done wrong?

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