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#1300676 - 11/06/09 05:46 PM this is where too many notes are meaningful
tremens, delirium Offline
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Registered: 10/16/09
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#1300701 - 11/06/09 06:28 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: tremens, delirium]
Othello Offline
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Registered: 06/06/07
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Tremens, you seem to have a penchant for "older" sound. Is that your basis of what constitutes "meaningful?"

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#1300714 - 11/06/09 06:47 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Othello]
tremens, delirium Offline
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Registered: 10/16/09
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Originally Posted By: Othello
Tremens, you seem to have a penchant for "older" sound. Is that your basis of what constitutes "meaningful?"


not at all, nothing against modern jazz (Makowicz is very much modern player) but please include some melody/message in your playing not just scales and passages.

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#1300831 - 11/06/09 11:03 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: tremens, delirium]
Othello Offline
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I tend to agree with that statement.

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#1300838 - 11/06/09 11:28 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Othello]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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But Delirium, you are so inconsistent. Macowicz is not playing anything unique. He's playing a fixed ostinato on the LH and RH is playing what most Jazz players play. Notes that fit the chord. In this case a simple blues.

You make statements about "scales and passages". Are you implying that Michel Petrucciani plays scales and passages? What exactly was Michel playing that didn't fit your mold here? I'm not clear.

Now we've had this discussion long ago and you pointed to this same guy Makowicz. He may have the technique but I don't see him breaking new ground. So he's some European version of Oscar Peterson? Even Peterson plays tons of licks and runs (your scale passages?).

So where are we? I'm really confused.

We all have our favorites and most of my favorites are "Many notes" guys: Keith, Herbie, Chick, Bill. So tell me specifically where they are playing the wrong notes for you. I just want to define this because it is so unclear.

Long ago you said you preferred this Makowicz to Jarrett. Well Makowicz is playing MORE NOTES than what Jarret usually plays. Jarrett is all about melody and each note is perfectly chosen. You don't believe me? Slow down the recordings. They sound as good in slow motion as at tempo.
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#1300857 - 11/07/09 12:11 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
tremens, delirium Offline
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Jazzwee, let's not be so literal here - you should know that "too many notes" was the joke from Amadeus movie, besides you know me, I appreciate technique as well as musicality.
But again - give me melody, something to remember, something unique and you can play as many notes as you will. Guys you have mentioned do that WITH licks, scales etc and they are popular - same as Corea, Matheny, Holland. But we have only few jazzers like these comparing to rock/pop, why?
BTW Jazz sax players made me hate this instrument....
Michel Petrucciani played in that c jam blues similar patterns all over again, again nothing against him but to me it was more like etude.

Regarding Makowicz and Jarrett - I was just saying Adam's technique is FAR better then Keith - Adam's mastery been compared to Art Tatum and Oscar Peterson, so you can say Makowicz is kinda Oscar from Europe.

P.S
I love that interpretation of God Bless the Child by Jarrett, you're right he plays melody nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Al2MDJL7oY

That's why he is popular - because he didn't forget that music is all about melody and story and he has something to say (although he's a jerk).

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#1300863 - 11/07/09 12:29 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: tremens, delirium]
jazzwee Online   content
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Well Delirium, I know you more so I'm used to your rants smile but you're getting everyone riled up (as usual smile ). But I know you're more extreme in your statements than you really are.

BTW - I hate to say this but I'm not that big on Oscar (notice he's not on my top list). He's a monster player and technically at the top of the short list. But I can recognize his licks a mile away unfortunately. And they're good licks but I like a little more unpredictability and sometimes, less notes too.

I'm surprised though that someone who claims to be big on melody is not into Jarrett or Mehldau. These two are the antithesis of "patterns". I happen to be big on melody but I don't know if you're serious about it since melodies can occur when playing fast or slow.

I'm also conscious of rhythmic originality which I find more in Herbie and Mehldau.
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#1300864 - 11/07/09 12:31 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: tremens, delirium]
Othello Offline
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I really like the idea of comparing improvised music (or just music in general) to literature. There are something structurally intricate and beautiful, like a Petrarchan sonnet. And there are something more open and seemingly less structured, like one of Allen Ginsberg's poems. Is either one more valid than the other?

Similar critiques of the free verse "prose" poems also exist. But when you write a poem of, say, 10 pages long, you are not going to care matching every word to its highest aptitude. Often such poems are more into depicting a large landscape than mere semantic erudition.

For me, I take emotions over any standard of word length, or in terms of music, note counts. I agree that if your music has no emotions or doesn't tell a story, it is devoid of meaning, note counts notwithstanding. One thing that I revere about John Coltrane is how much he poured into his music. I can listen to his My Favorite Things solo over and over again into eternity, because his emotions are so pulpable and concrete. But did he play a lot of notes? Yes. But he did so to convey his fervor and passion.

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#1300868 - 11/07/09 12:39 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Othello]
jazzwee Online   content
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Nicely said Othello.
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#1300870 - 11/07/09 12:41 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
nitekatt2008z Offline
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Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 552
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well Delirium, I know you more so I'm used to your rants smile but you're getting everyone riled up (as usual smile ). But I know you're more extreme in your statements than you really are.

BTW - I hate to say this but I'm not that big on Oscar (notice he's not on my top list). He's a monster player and technically at the top of the short list. But I can recognize his licks a mile away unfortunately. And they're good licks but I like a little more unpredictability and sometimes, less notes too.

I'm surprised though that someone who claims to be big on melody is not into Jarrett or Mehldau. These two are the antithesis of "patterns". I happen to be big on melody but I don't know if you're serious about it since melodies can occur when playing fast or slow.

I'm also conscious of rhythmic originality which I find more in Herbie and Mehldau.


I understand criticisms of Oscar Peterson's style and many opinions about his predictable use of same licks, patterns, motifs heard in his music. I am a big Oscar P fan, actually more so than Tatum, because Oscar was the better player with other musicians, Art better as a solo pianist. I also liked the way Oscar could swing.

Then you hear another side that said Oscar was so much the better player compared to Bill Evans because Bill didn't throw in fast double octave lines or licks like Oscar was known for. But actually Oscar said he spent a lot of time listening to Bill and enjoyed his music and learned things from the style/

It gets to the point that it is very difficult to make comparisons between who is greater than or better technically among, Bill, Oscar, Chick, Keith J, etc. Each pianist has their own unique voice and variances in technical ability.

katt

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#1300873 - 11/07/09 12:50 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: nitekatt2008z]
Nikolas Online   content
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My first post ( I think ) in the jass forum and I find the youtube very nice, although I don't *exactly* fancy jazz.

To my almost naive ears to jazz (since I don't listen to it and own no jazz cd, as opposed to other idioms to which I could say I'm "profissient" somewhat) this sounds very fine. Not too many notes at all. I can hear melodies here and there, some may be a tad "fast" but nothing too bad. The LH is following the right with chords (broken or not) and changes to other paces after the middle. It almost seems that there is little impro and more "playing again what I played last night, but slightly different".

And to make sure I don't get beaten up with my last comment, I don't mind that at all and loved the music in this youtube video! I just seemed a little stunned at the idea that he played all that and then next morning he might played it "completely" different. I'm assuming that the piece will resemble this one... :-/ (since it's based on the same theme anyways...)
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#1300876 - 11/07/09 12:55 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: nitekatt2008z]
jazzwee Online   content
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katt, not to take away from OP's talent, I was more referring to "influences". Meaning I'm not particularly learning to sound like OP, while I would really love to emulate the others on my list (even though they all sound different from each other).

I don't think Bill considered himself particularly talented naturally. He says he worked extra-hard on it. But Bill is the innovator. He changed Jazz forever and influenced everyone's playing that came after him. OP was a stylist in comparison and I would have no doubt would be the technical king (arguably with Tatum, etc.).

But please take my comments in context. I'm influenced by modern jazz (my definition/non-Bebop). My teacher is noted for Modern Jazz.
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#1300881 - 11/07/09 01:11 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
tremens, delirium Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

BTW - I hate to say this but I'm not that big on Oscar (notice he's not on my top list). He's a monster player and technically at the top of the short list. But I can recognize his licks a mile away unfortunately. And they're good licks but I like a little more unpredictability and sometimes, less notes too.


I can perfectly understand you because I'm not his fan or even Art Tatum either for the same reason. Bill Evans is still number one for me.

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#1300882 - 11/07/09 01:11 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
nitekatt2008z Offline
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Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 552
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
katt, not to take away from OP's talent, I was more referring to "influences". Meaning I'm not particularly learning to sound like OP, while I would really love to emulate the others on my list (even though they all sound different from each other).

I don't think Bill considered himself particularly talented naturally. He says he worked extra-hard on it. But Bill is the innovator. He changed Jazz forever and influenced everyone's playing that came after him. OP was a stylist in comparison and I would have no doubt would be the technical king (arguably with Tatum, etc.).

But please take my comments in context. I'm influenced by modern jazz (my definition/non-Bebop). My teacher is noted for Modern Jazz.


Jazz, I understand perfectly. Oscar is more "old school", blues/bop based, Bill, more modern harmonically and modal. The players who are studying jazz piano now are more influenced by Keith J, Bill of course, Brad M, Chick, several other leaders. Personally I am also more into checking out modern concepts on today's new generation jazz pianists.

Here is very modern sounding jazz pianist I'm following and listening to,
Lynne Arriale Trio, Seven Steps To Heaven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZEVIIHSetY
Her site http://www.lynnearriale.com/

She teaches, I would like some lessons from her, really like her sound. See what you think

katt

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#1300886 - 11/07/09 01:17 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Othello]
tremens, delirium Offline
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Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 155
Originally Posted By: Othello
I really like the idea of comparing improvised music (or just music in general) to literature. There are something structurally intricate and beautiful, like a Petrarchan sonnet. And there are something more open and seemingly less structured, like one of Allen Ginsberg's poems. Is either one more valid than the other?


I like that idea too, in fact I often compare music to painting as I see music anyway in my head so literature would work the same. Images in once head. Of course it's not the question whether once is valid or not but if once carry any message or no IMO.

Bill is really painting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6CS8h_JSk4&feature=related

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#1300893 - 11/07/09 01:41 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: nitekatt2008z]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Originally Posted By: nitekatt2008z
Here is very modern sounding jazz pianist I'm following and listening to,
Lynne Arriale Trio, Seven Steps To Heaven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZEVIIHSetY
Her site http://www.lynnearriale.com/

She teaches, I would like some lessons from her, really like her sound. See what you think

katt



She sounds great. I've never heard of her before but I classify her under the "pianist" jazzers category, those who have the technique to get that extra quality from the piano.

Reminded me a little of Joanne Brackeen. Maybe it's the outfit smile

This is the type of playing I'm drawn to. Similarly, I like John Taylor, Paul Bley, Fred Hersch, Alan Pascua, Kenny Werner. Lots of Bill's influence but taken to another level.

Fortunately there's enough variety in Jazz to fit everyone's style.

A little critique of Lynne - it seems she plays a little too gently when she burns. The top line modern jazz players are probably more assertive...


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#1300894 - 11/07/09 01:43 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: tremens, delirium]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Originally Posted By: tremens, delirium
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

BTW - I hate to say this but I'm not that big on Oscar (notice he's not on my top list). He's a monster player and technically at the top of the short list. But I can recognize his licks a mile away unfortunately. And they're good licks but I like a little more unpredictability and sometimes, less notes too.


I can perfectly understand you because I'm not his fan or even Art Tatum either for the same reason. Bill Evans is still number one for me.


Now we're talking smile
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#1300909 - 11/07/09 02:55 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: nitekatt2008z]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
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Yea I agree with Othello, I think the whole thing about playing too many/little notes, playing melody is just pedantic.. Oscar Peterson may be playing the same licks, but noo ne can swing hard on the piano like he does, and make you want to get up and dance. And I've heard him play very simple melodic solos too on ballads. And he does pour his heart out when he plays.

I mean people like BB King have been playing the same old blues licks and stuff all his life, but he is still great, because his music feels good, and it tells a story. It's unfortunate, because sometimes what we thing music 'should or ought to be' can really get in the way of enjoying music for what it is.

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#1300915 - 11/07/09 03:13 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
etcetra Offline
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I didn't like Makowitz clip at all.. it sounds like he took a LH bass pattern from a chopin prelude and played blues licks over it. His feel in general feels 'square'.Oscar Peterson can play something much more virtuossic and really make it swing. The feel really kills it for me.

I know I am being very picky but when you hear great players like Oscar or Bill, or Petrucciani play, their timing is almost impeccable.. sure they do rush, but you hear the time/pulse all the way through the music even on solo piano.. but on the clip I felt like there were moments where the time was just not there at all.

I am confused too, because Makowitz seems to play a good number of stock licks like Pettrucianni or chick corea or anyone else I know. And he seems a lot of Art Tatum-isms in his playing,

Musically, I prefer something like this over Makowitz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0OdpeDvs7g

It's amazing how he can create something that harmonically interesting on the spot.. and how he can control instrument like an orchestra.. he has 2-4 independent voices going on as he improvise. This for me, is an example of "playing by ear"


Edited by etcetra (11/07/09 03:27 AM)

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#1300982 - 11/07/09 09:45 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
tremens, delirium Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well Delirium, I know you more so I'm used to your rants smile but you're getting everyone riled up (as usual smile


yeah, this kinda amazes me since I'd expect more sense of humor and imagination from musicians. In old days they're supposed to be artists too...

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#1301004 - 11/07/09 10:39 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: tremens, delirium]
jazzwee Online   content
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etc., do you do that two-handed stuff like in that youtube you posted? That was very interesting. I've been looking for every two-handed improvisation I can find. I've been working on this and slowly making progress. Leaning towards the Brad Mehldau method at the moment which is more rhythmically varied.
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#1301006 - 11/07/09 10:43 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: tremens, delirium]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Originally Posted By: tremens, delirium
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well Delirium, I know you more so I'm used to your rants smile but you're getting everyone riled up (as usual smile


yeah, this kinda amazes me since I'd expect more sense of humor and imagination from musicians. In old days they're supposed to be artists too...


Well you do come out more serious with your "the sky is falling" statements. smile But let's face it, there are 4 threads here talking about TOO MANY NOTES...LOL. So if you can handle the heat, stay in the kitchen smile

In the other forum, the "artist" comment would have started (restarted?) new arguments again
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#1301012 - 11/07/09 10:54 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: etcetra
Yea I agree with Othello, I think the whole thing about playing too many/little notes, playing melody is just pedantic.. Oscar Peterson may be playing the same licks, but noo ne can swing hard on the piano like he does, and make you want to get up and dance. And I've heard him play very simple melodic solos too on ballads. And he does pour his heart out when he plays.

I mean people like BB King have been playing the same old blues licks and stuff all his life, but he is still great, because his music feels good, and it tells a story. It's unfortunate, because sometimes what we thing music 'should or ought to be' can really get in the way of enjoying music for what it is.


I don't want to start a can of worms here. I admire OP and agree with you about his swing and technical capability. My comments on OP are just for myself. He's not one of my influences. There are many players that are not my influences. Add Tatum to the list.

By the same token, many people hate the players I am influenced by, like Brad Mehldau.

That's cool. I'm accused of being non-swingy and classical sounding because I lean to modern style playing with straight eighths. So it shouldn't be a surprise that I'm not trying to sound like OP, Wynton, Garland, Monty, etc. Love 'em all though and I have their records. I can swing hard too but don't prefer it.
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#1301019 - 11/07/09 11:13 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
tremens, delirium Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

In the other forum, the "artist" comment would have started (restarted?) new arguments again


yeah, Dave Horne would be calling me on the phone LOL

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#1301044 - 11/07/09 11:44 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: tremens, delirium]
Cudo Offline
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Here is somebody who could technically play many notes, but mainly plays the essential. ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp2UgfaQwTc

Miles used to send his pianoplayers listening to him.

His speciality: playing rests.


Edited by Cudo (11/07/09 11:48 AM)

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#1301053 - 11/07/09 11:53 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Cudo]
tremens, delirium Offline
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Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 155
Originally Posted By: Cudo
Here is somebody who could technically play many notes, but mainly plays the essential. ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp2UgfaQwTc

Miles used to send his pianoplayers listening to him.

His speciality: playing rests.


and that's what I'm talking about! fun, rhythm, spirit and melody, cool tune.

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#1301162 - 11/07/09 03:54 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
etc., do you do that two-handed stuff like in that youtube you posted? That was very interesting. I've been looking for every two-handed improvisation I can find. I've been working on this and slowly making progress. Leaning towards the Brad Mehldau method at the moment which is more rhythmically varied.


Yes and no, it's something I've been working on, and I can't do it as fluently as those guys. Fred Hersch does stuff like that too, its more about 2-3 counterpoint than just playing stuff over a LH ostinato. I've came up with polyphonic exercises where I'll try to get 2-3 voices going on a Bb7sus chord or something.. You kind of start thinking like you are playing Bach's sinfonia or fugures.. althought not as thematic and deliberate.

btw I transcribed part of tony's solo, just pm me and I can give you a copy if you want.

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#1301273 - 11/07/09 08:25 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
jazzwee Online   content
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I've been practicing this every day and my LH is becoming more fluent now. I'm really learning to build on this style. But this guy is not utilizing the rhythmic aspect as much. Also he exhibits the same difficulty I'm having: keeping good time while being distracted by 2 hands. I was hoping that this Tony guy would have at least solved that. But I guess it's not easy (trust me I know). Sometimes I play it and it sounds good time wise and I record it (with a metronome) and I can see my LH waver.
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#1301315 - 11/07/09 10:36 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
jazzwee,

I don't know what you mean by rhythmic aspect, but there are plenty of rhythmic stuff going on with triplet displacements and what not.

I didn't hear major noticable errors in his time.. Makowitz clip on the other hand, there were noticiable time problem. You can hear the LH fluctuating. I don't think its about keeping metronomic time in solo piano, Bill Evans rushes like crazy on his solo piano stuff, but the music flows

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#1301320 - 11/07/09 10:50 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 08/07/04
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Tony Tixier is great.

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#1301339 - 11/07/09 11:48 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
etcetera, I can hear it clearly at the beginning, even just the first few bars. I know you were criticizing Bill Evan's time once and I disagree highly with that. Bill's time is one of the most precise.

This is what I mean by rhythmic variation (syncopated playing) and very precise time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4IFtgATxK0

I'm hoping that because I can now recognize time faults that someday I'll be able to fix mine smile Hearing a problem is the first step. Almost like Alcholics Anonymous smile where we acknowledge our addiction.

EDIT - I just listened to it again and I can spot it in multiple places where the LH didn't time right with the RH. This two handed improvisation stuff is VERY difficult. So what I'm talking about here is slight. He plays this thing beautifully though. I'm just recognizing that even a high level player like this guy cannot do it perfectly (although I have to yet hear an imperfection in Mehldau's).




Edited by jazzwee (11/08/09 12:09 AM)
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#1301357 - 11/08/09 12:33 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
jazzwee,

Bill Evans is actually known for his time problems in his late recordings. I read that Joe Labara actually had to confront Bill about the time issue, and Bill just asked him to follow him. I've also read that John Coltrane didn't like playing with Bill for the same reason.

Again, I guess I am more concerned about the overall flow of the music than the details.. I felt like Makowitz's playing just didn't flow that well. Also there was more Rubato in Tony Tixier's playing..I am not sure which part wasn't together, it was clear enough that I can put it down on paper... i think in the really busy LH part he is playing like triplets on RH against 16th notes on RH.. so they don't necessary line up the way you expect it.

Tony is definitely one of the best young players around now

btw Brad is doing a lot of stuff beyond just synchopation.. he does really complicated over the barline stuff, sometimes even with triplets.. It's hard to explain in words, but for me it's not something you can just get it by listening, I actually had to transcribe stuff and really figure out what he is doing. There are so many ways to play 4/4 and not make it sound like 4/4 at all.

Ben Wendell's tune "Breath" is like that too.. they are working with the same kind of rhythmic concept/vocabulary in a way. The head plays sounds like he is going through all these different meter, but it all adds up to 16 bars of 4/4


http://www.myspace.com/benwendelmusician


Edited by etcetra (11/08/09 12:43 AM)

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#1301361 - 11/08/09 12:45 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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etcetera, I would be happy to be laden with Bill's time problems smile He does push the beat, but I don't classify that as a "time problem". That's more of a stylistic incompatibility maybe.

This is an interesting discussion, especially on Mehldau's. I used to look at Mehldau's stuff as being complicated. I was working with my teacher on Herbie and he was showing me this rhythmic pattern, and something just dawned on me that I could clearly see it, and that Mehldau's playing became entirely clear to me. Believe it or not, I don't think Mehldau's playing is so complex anymore (at least in 4/4). It's really a fascinating discovery. What he does is very similar to what Jazz singers do which I'll just call generally as syncopated playing. I can hear it clearly in my head and I can tap it. Boy, I wish you're still back in L.A. because I could just show it to you. Give me a few months and I think I can cop his style (simplified).

I don't know of any player who plays rhythmically as much as Mehldau almost like a person singing. Maybe Hersch and Herbie. Herbie's is different though. He'll stream eighth notes with upbeat accents and then stop and syncopate with downbeat accents. Everyone else plays in a more consistent eighth note stream and more clear time definition.
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#1301363 - 11/08/09 12:52 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Originally Posted By: etcetra

Ben Wendell's tune "Breath" is like that too.. they are working with the same kind of rhythmic concept/vocabulary in a way. The head plays sounds like he is going through all these different meter, but it all adds up to 16 bars of 4/4


http://www.myspace.com/benwendelmusician


You see this is an entirely different concept. You're looking at everything as a meter. But that suggests a consistency. For example if someone is playing 12/8, it's consistent.

What I'm talking about with a Mehldau is that thinking in terms of meters is impossible as it is changing at every bar. Instead think of the repeating pattern of the overall phrasing. Listen to that ATTYA Part 1. He sets up the phrasing motif with the LH and then he uses that phrasing motif two handed for a long time. This stuff is extremely difficult to transcribe and I wouldn't even try. Instead I would just grasp it in a big picture way.

So to me, Mehldau is just doing 4/4 here. Plain and simple, with a very predictable phrasing style. I've compared many many records now and he repeats this phrasing style over and over (sometimes fast and sometimes slow). In a way, the uniqueness is gone.
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#1301365 - 11/08/09 12:54 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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hmm, as far as I know there are a lot of similarity between Bill and Brad rhythmically.. lots of rhythmic displacements, and I am pretty sure they actually have to work it out systematically. I think the album with him and Charlie Haden did is great, because Charlie haden lays down the beat most of the time so you can hear how Brad is playing against that.

If you can get the Brad Mehldau stuff right, that's great i wish you good luck smile

btw I am talking about Bill's very late recordings, like the ones made right before he passed away... I know Bill Evans do rush, and that's fine, his time is usually very good, but some of the rushing on the late recordings are just too frantic for me.

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#1301373 - 11/08/09 01:11 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Originally Posted By: etcetra
jazzwee,

Bill Evans is actually known for his time problems in his late recordings. I read that Joe Labara actually had to confront Bill about the time issue, and Bill just asked him to follow him. I've also read that John Coltrane didn't like playing with Bill for the same reason.

Again, I guess I am more concerned about the overall flow of the music than the details.. I felt like Makowitz's playing just didn't flow that well. Tony is definitely one of the best young players around now

btw Brad is doing a lot of stuff beyond just synchopation.. he does really complicated over the barline stuff, sometimes even with triplets.. It's hard to explain in words, but for me it's not something you can just get it by listening, I actually had to transcribe stuff and really figure out what he is doing. There are so many ways to play 4/4 and not make it sound like 4/4 at all.

Ben Wendell's tune "Breath" is like that too.. they are working with the same kind of rhythmic concept/vocabulary in a way. The head plays sounds like he is going through all these different meter, but it all adds up to 16 bars of 4/4


http://www.myspace.com/benwendelmusician


Etcetra, the time issue with Bill E and his last trio with Joe L and Mark Johnson is accurate. Bill kept the band on their toes. But part of this was due to his health issues and if he had a lousy piano towards his end, Sept 1980. He played gigs at times in pain and discomfort, ulcers, liver problems, abuse, you name it. I read he would rush tunes just to get the set over with because he was fighting the piano.

I remember on one tune that I have on a video about his final year touring where he was rushing "Suicide Is Painless" so much I couldn't believe it, so obvious, he was definitely having a bad night. He was also angry about the sound booming from the stage monitors. Also about the last year of Bill's life, his brother Harry committed suicide and Bill never recovered from that, they were very close. Along with the talent comes a huge sack of emotional challenges

See, Bill couldn't just relax and take an early retirement. He in fact was at the next gig when he got so sick, Joe L took him to the hospital where he finished his final bar. That was it for Bill and the trio, ultimate cancelation. Perhaps if Bill had money in the bank and taken enough time off from touring, he might have gotten his health together and made it to 70. But fate deals the cards as it plays the hand.

But there is a definite difference in Bill's playing live in his final years. Whether this was due to his health problems, lousy pianos, exhaustion, who knows. Sad anyway. Thank goodness Bill left us many records to enjoy and learn from.

katt

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#1301375 - 11/08/09 01:13 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Bill and Mehldau are completely different. I understand rhythmic displacements, which is not what I'm talking about. But Bill doesn't do this syncopation thing. Can't you hear it in ATTYA Part 1?

Well maybe this insight is something that each person has to discover on their own. My teacher demonstrated it at the last lesson and it just blew me away. Although he was talking about Herbie. He actually did a scat on a Herbie pattern. Then we did it on the piano. And, man, that was probably the most important lesson of the year and it seemed innocuous at the time.

All I'm suggesting, etctera, is I saw another pattern here that's not meter related. It's a phrasing syncopation pattern. I think you've been slicing it horizontally and I'm now slicing it vertically (just to make some sort of analogy here).

A week ago, I couldn't hear this.
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#1301381 - 11/08/09 01:20 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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Katt, do you have a link that to that Evans' video?
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#1301384 - 11/08/09 01:25 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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jazzwee,

all i am saying is that after transcribing Brad Mehldau, Bill Evans, Ben Wendell and many others, I came to the conclusion that they are using the same kind of concept rhythmically, although it may not be apparent at first.. And I notice everybody doing it in one way or the other, so for me it sounds like a lot of these ideas are common knowledge.

I am sure people can come to different conclusion about the same thing, I guess the important thing is to know what works for you and me and sometimes what works for me might not work for you and vice versa


Edited by etcetra (11/08/09 01:29 AM)

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#1301385 - 11/08/09 01:37 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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As you know, Mehldau doesn't feel to happy about being compared to Evans because he doesn't think they are similar. And I agree.

I don't disagree that on a micro level, they will follow the same rhythmic displacement approaches, etc. But the micro-analysis doesn't help if one is duplicating their sound, that's all.

It's like saying they all use rootless voicings. But that's just a building block. Everyone uses rootless voicings.

If you did listen to Mehldau's ATTYA Part 1, I can duplicate that phrasing pattern he's using completely, although I cannot do that cleanly on the LH. I cannot explain it as a meter thing. I'd be better off explaining it by saying listen to Bobby McFerrin.
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#1301425 - 11/08/09 05:13 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee


What I'm talking about with a Mehldau is that thinking in terms of meters is impossible as it is changing at every bar.



I am pretty sure Brad is playing in 7 the whole way through on that clip. It's not clear in the beggining but I clearly hear 7 after 1:50. But he is doing a lot of things against it to make it not sound like 7.It's the same thing is that Ben Wendell is doing on his tune too...or Chris Potter, Dave Holland ..etc etc

BTW this is a difficult to transcribe, I don't think it's impossible, I am sure there are plenty of people who can transcribe stuff like this.

Rhythmically It really isn't that much different than what Thomas Ruckert is doing on this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovqa_WG5z74

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gBTc0dWAEg

this is still in 4/4 the other meters are "implied".

Likewise, I don't think Brad Mehldau changed meter in that solo, every meter change is implied in 7, and they should all fit in 7.


Edited by etcetra (11/08/09 07:49 AM)

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#1301468 - 11/08/09 08:04 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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I've tried to play the rhythm that Ruckuert is doing as well as Brad's.

You're thinking of Brad's as 7. But it's really simpler than that. You play 3/4 right? When you play a waltz, do you play your lines classical style with the accent on beat 1? Of course not. Jazz Waltz is played with a 3 against 4 pattern which causes the syncopation (generated by the empty space). If you play eighth notes in a 4/4 against a 3/4 beat, the accents will change from upbeats to downbeats. The concept here is to make a Jazz Waltz swing.

7/4 implies a consistency that doesn't exist. The occurence of a 3 against 4 rhythmic play (which I studied for an entire year with my teacher), is not a constant thing like playing 5/4 when doing the solo. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not there so you can't deliberately count 7 all throughout the entire tune. If you think this way then you'll be changing from 3/4 to 4/4 pretty frequently.

Ruckuert is not doing that. He's playing Bach style with no swing. I must understand this since my teacher played exactly like Rueckert at my last lesson (I passed him the youtube link). And he showed me how he accented downbeats instead of upbeats.

The difference in the sound between Mehldau and others playing 2-handed is that Mehldau has that cut-note effect, which in a simplified explanation is like a singer cutting off some of the words short (non-legato). Now, you can over analyze this because he happens to do this cut-effect on notes on the upbeat. I've over-analyzed this until recently. But what Mehldau has discovered here is that he's just trying to emulate a normal human voice in conversation. He's just about said this in a TV interview (no Youtube unfortunately but I saw it on TV). In normal conversation, some words are short (like conjunctions) and if you articulate them, they are cut off.

So far I haven't found a good Jazz singer that follows this style on Youtube but I heard the exact thing on Sirius-Real Jazz while driving. I just couldn't remember the name of the singer. Bobby McFerrin does it a lot too but no good Jazz example on youtube.

The trick to seeing if I'm right or wrong is if I can duplicate the phrasing feel. And I can. And I'm certainly not counting 7/4 or 3 against 4 (although of course that is something I've practiced for awhile). I can scat-sing it too.

Now I understand why some teachers approach some of this by singing. On the Sirius Radio yesterday (long drive), I was listening to Wynton Marsalis sing a 12/8 and what was discussed as broken time (shifting between 4/4 and 12/8). It's a lot easier to duplicate it when thinking along these lines.

What Brad is doing is certainly unique among pianists. But now that I understand it, I realize he uses it ALL THE TIME.
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#1301473 - 11/08/09 08:21 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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Another way of looking at this: Feel the swing between Rueckert and Mehldau. Are you saying the swing is the same? I think not.
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#1301508 - 11/08/09 09:53 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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I am not really sure what you are trying to say,
Are you saying that Brad's solo is not in any specific meter? As far as I know Ruckert's solo is in 5 for the entire time, and Brad's solo is in 7 for the entire time. Of course the time does fluctuate, but its still in a strict meter.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Ruckuert is not doing that. He's playing Bach style with no swing. I must understand this since my teacher played exactly like Rueckert at my last lesson (I passed him the youtube link). And he showed me how he accented downbeats instead of upbeats.


Well I don't know what to tell you because I talked to Thomas Ruckert through email and he explained his rhythmic concept to me, which was very different than how you characterized it here. He is doing stuff like like grouping 2 bars of 5/4 into 3-3-2-2, 3-4-2..etc.. which makes it sound like its not in 5 because the phrase can happen in any part of the beat. It's the same thing Dave Holland does in "free for all over" 4/4..

well but who knows maybe you and your teacher have insight that even thmoas ruckert himself is not aware of?? wink

BTW Can anyone else paraphrase what jazzwee is saying in a way I can understand it?


Edited by etcetra (11/08/09 09:55 AM)

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#1301570 - 11/08/09 11:53 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Brad's solo is in 4/4 the whole way. That's ok, etcetera, I don't have to explain it. I think I am happy that I'm understanding it. Obviously if it's so easily understood there would be 50 other Mehldaus now.

I don't dispute 5/4 in the Like Someone in Love. I'm saying that it wasn't intended to swing as it is downbeat focused. Are you saying it is not Bach Style?

You are characterizing cases of note groupings as a meter instead of just what they are, phrasings. Under your "meter" mantra, a lot of Jazz will be shifting 12/8 and 4/4 especially among horn players. But that's not what they're doing. They're just playing with a double time feel. My definition of meter is that it is the underpinnings of the rhythm section. By playing 12/8, the soloist is playing AGAINST the rhythm section. A soloist playing a counter-rhythm does not alter the meter.
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#1301608 - 11/08/09 01:18 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Brad's solo is in 4/4 all the way? are you serious? I mean c'mon at least its obvious that the end 3:35-3:42 is clearly in 7!! that should at least tell you it's not 4/4 all the way.. and I don't really hear him suddenly changing from 4/4to 7/4 all the sudden

You do agree at least that when the rhythm section comes in its in 7 right???

I don't really know how to explain what I am trying to tell you.. based on your response it's obvious I am not really getting through. I feel like you are arguing against my point without really knowing what I am really talking about. Who knows maybe you are much better player than I am and I am just ignorant. but I really don't know anything from just talking, and obviously we are not really understanding each other, so I figure, maybe we can just agree to disagree?

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#1301611 - 11/08/09 01:26 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
etcetra Offline
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Again I am surprised that you didn't notice the last part(3:35-3:42) on the solo was in 7, he really gives it away at that point...I mean it's soooo obvious at that point... all these things(and the comments on the video) makes me wonder whether you are really right about the whole thing being in 4...

Again I have to ask you, You do agree at least that when the rhythm section comes in its in 7 right??? because if we are disagreeing on that, we are clearly hearing different kind of music!!

If you listen to Live at vanguard CD, the whole thing is in 7, the solo piano part is faster, but you hear the 7 much clearer. I've heard other versions and I've never heard him play ATTYA in 7, so logistically I don't see why he would do the solo part in 4 on this particular clip.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I don't dispute 5/4 in the Like Someone in Love. I'm saying that it wasn't intended to swing as it is downbeat focused. Are you saying it is not Bach Style?



If you actually read the info It clearly says .."Solopiano Version in 5 / Jarrett like " So I don't know how you got the Bach style, unless you were watching the other version. smile And I really don't know what you mean by downbeat based, his phrases rarely starts in 1, or on the beat most of the time.


Edited by etcetra (11/08/09 01:58 PM)

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#1301727 - 11/08/09 05:39 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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I give up.

Obviously we are talking past each other. You can play it in 7/4 and I'll play it in 4/4 with counter-rhythms.

One of these days you can post your version and I can post my version and we can rediscuss it then.
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#1301846 - 11/08/09 11:00 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I give up.

Obviously we are talking past each other. You can play it in 7/4 and I'll play it in 4/4 with counter-rhythms.

One of these days you can post your version and I can post my version and we can rediscuss it then.


jazzwee,

ok, well, I hope you meant that for the solo piano part, because if you are still playing in 4 while the band is playing, you'll probably get fired!!

we don't have to agree about the solo part, but at least we can agree that when the band comes in(and the moments leading up to it), its in 7 right?

Btw I am looking forward to hearing you post your play Mehldau style.. I am really not good enough to do anything like that so maybe you can do everyone here a favor and show us how its done smile


Edited by etcetra (11/08/09 11:11 PM)

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#1301849 - 11/08/09 11:06 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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You guys are both off, want me to email you a transcription of Brad's ATTYA solo?

By the Jazzwee how do you define what 7/8 means?
And do you really hear Blue Skies as a blues?

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#1301854 - 11/08/09 11:14 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
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Jazz+

Sure, I mean I am not 100% sure about the time, but at least I am pretty sure that its in 7 when i comes in.

Besides, from what I remember on the live at village vanguard CD.. brad plays the intro part mostly in 7..

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#1301858 - 11/08/09 11:19 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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You are mostly correct, it's a lot of 7/8, but there are a few other sudden meter changes now and then.

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#1301875 - 11/09/09 12:00 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
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thanks now we can put the whole argument to rest... I am glad though that I was partially right.. because if it was all in 4/4, then I must be totally confused about everything.

Btw I looked at the transcription.. gee I am lucky If i can do anything like that in 10 years!!


Edited by etcetra (11/09/09 12:33 AM)

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#1301974 - 11/09/09 09:48 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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This is like missing my point completely. I was talking about executing the phrasing. And I can execute the phrasing within the framework of 4/4. Then the discussion degenerated into that being a meter thing. My original point is that Mehldau's phrasing can be found in any of his tunes and he uses the same device regardless of meter.
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#1301991 - 11/09/09 10:09 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Brad's solo is in 4/4 the whole way]. That's ok, etcetera, I don't have to explain it. I think I am happy that I'm understanding it. Obviously if it's so easily understood there would be 50 other Mehldaus now.



You know it's okay to admit that you were wrong or you don't know everything, I mean I do accept that I don't know about Brad's playing as much as I'd like to.

But who knows maybe you really are a genius and you have an insight only few people have about Brad Mehldau's playing, and you can somehow create something of that level. Again, if you do please do share us..

In fact, please feel free to share any recording, even if its not related to this topic.If you are really at that level, its probably way beyond any of us here, and we sure can learn alot from you!! smile


Edited by etcetra (11/09/09 10:20 AM)

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#1302004 - 11/09/09 10:32 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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What did I just say earlier in this thread etcetera? I told you I was hearing the pattern that Mehldau was creating and that in a few months I would be able to recreate it. I was trying to share it with you and you instead create this attacking personality.

And I still disagree with the premise of this "VARIED METERS" in a single ATTYA tune. It's crazy to think that. It's like saying Mehldau has no time!

The fact that he weaves in and out of main meter by rhythmic displacement doesn't change the timing of the chord progression.

Since you claim it is in 7/4, please play it and post it. And be sure to STAY in 7/4.

Sigh...you see the trees...I see the forest. Good luck.
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#1302045 - 11/09/09 11:28 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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Jazz+,

Now listen to Part 2 where the Trio merges what you call the "meter changes". In fact IGNORE Brad and just listen to the bass player and the drummer. Start at 3:40 or so where it is less distracting and the bass player is playing clear quarter notes. Now track the chord changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsW6K51lQkQ&feature=related

These guys are obviously masters of rhythmic displacement but how Brad breaks up the time is just by varying the subdivisions (which I now just view as rhythmic phrasings). He restores the displacements and I hear the harmony matching the time.

I don't know about you but I can play 4/4 to that bass player.
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#1302064 - 11/09/09 11:47 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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I agree with you jazwee that the basic rhythm doesn't change. He borrows, and pays back.

But I have a question. If you had never heard this recording before, and if the title was not at the top, could you recognize it as "All the Things You Are"?

I sure couldn't.
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#1302074 - 11/09/09 12:01 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Studio Joe]
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Joe, that's a hard one. That's the mystery of Jazz and maybe why nowadays is relegated to "Musician's music". As a beginner, it would be very difficult to actually relate it to the original ATTYA.

Some of these tunes, I've practiced to play in all kind of variations until I don't get lost. This is one of them. So a regular Jazz listener probably doesn't worry about that. They just probably enjoy the changing rhythm, the changing harmony and the melodic snippets and the extra tension in the music.

I would almost imagine that no one would want to listen to a Brad Mehldau because of the complexity of the music. But look at the crowds at this video and others. Something is clicking with the audience apparently. Maybe it's the originality. He's one of the players that draws a crowd.

I don't claim to imagine that somehow Jazz will get widespread attention somehow but just read the heated discussions here. At the very least, it gets a passionate response. smile

Oftentimes it holds me back from posting Jazz recordings at ABF because it's too far out for most I'm sure. But sometimes we just have to be true to ourselves. It gets me excited and I'm the lone one even in my own family. So I won't be insulted if you say I play too many notes.
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#1302083 - 11/09/09 12:14 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

And I still disagree with the premise of this "VARIED METERS" in a single ATTYA tune. It's crazy to think that. It's like saying Mehldau has no time!


Jazz+ gave me the transcriptions. There are quite a lot of meter change. It's mostly in 7 but He deliberately changes meter to 2/4, 5/4 3/4 ..etc.

You don't have to believe me, but please do look at the transcription before you jump into conclusion. I am sure jazz+ will be glad to give them to you. You can disagree all you want, but the transcriptions says it all... of course you can always say that whoever transcribed it doesn't know what he is doing and you know better than that guy..

Why don't you ask your teacher about this??? I am not expecting you believe me.. but I doubt that he would say the tune is in 4/4 the entire time.

As far as I know Jazz+, the comments on youtube, the transcription all indicate that the tune is (mostly) in 7. I hope you understand that I am not making this up.

BTW you know you can play quarter-note bass line in 7 right?


Edited by etcetra (11/09/09 12:33 PM)

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#1302094 - 11/09/09 12:32 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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etcetera, I'm not trying to fight with you. I've been saying all along that this is just a forest for the trees discussion. I am absolutely sure that those implied meter changes are in this version. So if you tell me you hear 7/8, 7/4 and 5/4, I won't doubt it.

But that's how Brad plays with time. Look, if you play any meter variation long enough, it will synchronize eventually with 4/4. Right? Play 7/8 and at the 4th measure you're back in synch. So clearly any variation on the meter is possible as long as the big picture remains.

So I can say without a doubt that probably all of us are correct (depending on how you look at it).

But that wasn't why I brought up the topic (or hijacked in this case). What I originally discovered is something that I had worked on with my teacher in the past which is playing 3 against 4. I find that all the rhythmic differences come out at various times in a 3 against 4 playing. I practiced this with the LH at 4/4 and RH at 3/4. That varying subdivision is what I discovered with Mehldau and I started hearing it as a syncopated pattern.

For example, let's use "Take 5" as a base. You could look at it as just 5/4, or you can hear the syncopated pattern in the beat which is very specific to this tune (which is partly a play on 3 against 4).

As you already know all variations of meters like 7/8, 4/4, 5/4 are just combinations of 4/4 (or 2/4) and 3/4. Right? 3-4, or 2-2-3, or 3-2, etc. So I figure if you understand all the possible rhythmic variations with 3 against 4 or 4 against 3 then the secret is out.

So I'm not telling you you are wrong at all. Simply that I'm looking at it a different angle (simplified in my mind).
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#1302095 - 11/09/09 12:34 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Originally Posted By: etcetra

BTW you know you can play quarter-note bass line in 7 right?


I'm listening to the chord changes.
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#1302101 - 11/09/09 12:44 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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jazzwee,

having the transcriptions in front of me helps.

I am not disagreeing about the fact that 4 bars of 7=7bars of 4. But this tune is definitely not in 4/4 all the way through, or 7/4 in that sake(at least the intro. But the underlying meter(most of the time) is 7.

I think you should just ask your teacher, it doesn't hurt to get his opinion, he probably knows much better than any of us

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#1302110 - 11/09/09 12:50 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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I sure will. You're right, he should know better than any of us.

Side topic: my teacher thinks that playing in odd meters is not true to Jazz so he doesn't encourage me to go beyond 4/4 and 3/4. So I'm pushing it with him a little when I start delving into rhythmic concepts. I don't quite agree with him here. But I have to respect his historical roots in Jazz.
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#1302113 - 11/09/09 12:51 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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btw 7 is usually felt as

half note,half note,dotted quarter,dotted quarter,

so one trick to figuring if its in 7 is by hearing the two dotted quarter notes.. Brad plays that on his LH comping, and bass plays it too.. in fact, thats the first thing you hear on the clip you sent me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsW6K51lQkQ&feature=related

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#1302123 - 11/09/09 01:06 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Originally Posted By: etcetra
btw 7 is usually felt as

half note,half note,dotted quarter,dotted quarter,

so one trick to figuring if its in 7 is by hearing the two dotted quarter notes.. Brad plays that on his LH comping, and bass plays it too.. in fact, thats the first thing you hear on the clip you sent me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsW6K51lQkQ&feature=related


I agree with that etcetera. Now in your head, can you overlay 4/4 against that same rhythm?

That's what I'm talking about it. I'm hearing the superimposition and it affects the phrasing. You may not hear this as we all perceive it differently, but when superimposed, I feel an enhanced swing.

What I learned sometime ago was the overlaying of one meter against another meter. So this training seems to make me see it in a little different setting. Then it becomes arguable which one is the main meter or the overlay.

If we were playing classical here, there would be no argument as we would only be talking downbeats. But this is jazz so the upbeats and the swing intervals between eighths count.

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#1302199 - 11/09/09 03:26 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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jazzwee,

whatever Brad is doing he is playing it against 7/4, maybe he is doing 4/4 over 7/4. 5/4 over 7/4 or 3/4 over 7/4, but its all in 7/4.. if you are saying he is just playing 4/4 over it, then you are oversimplyfying it, chances are that he is doing all the above plus metric modulation using triplets, where every 4 triplet becomes the new beat.. etc.

I have a general idea, but I can't say I actually know what brad is doing exactly.. I know there are ways to play 5/4 7/4 over 4/4, but I can't say I am very good at it. I mean I can play 3/4 against normal 4/4 bass line, but playing 5/4 and 7/4 is entire different thing..,

now playing 3/4, 4/4/ 5/4 over a 7/4 bass ostinato.. that's way beyond me for sure. I mean lets say you start your 4/4 over the third beat of 7,

the 2nd measure of 4/4 will start in beat 7 in 7/4
the 3rd measurre of 4/4 will start on 4 of 2nd measure in 7/4
the 4th measure of 4/4 will start on 1st beat of 3rd measure in 7/4

and so on.

or you can play 2 measures of 7 as 5+5+4, 3+3+3+5, 2+3+4+5, against a constant LH ostinato that always starts on 1.

I know these things conceptually, but I am far from actually using any of this musically. If you can actually do all that after few years of studying, then I am truly impressed.


Edited by etcetra (11/09/09 03:40 PM)

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#1302262 - 11/09/09 05:16 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Like I said, I did a lot of work with 3 against 4. If you haven't done that then maybe I'm not understandable here. What I mean by that is playing 4/4 against a 3/4 in eighth notes. When combined it's a syncopation pattern. There's a syncopation pattern in each of the time signatures. So practically anything can be subdivided into a syncopation pattern that can fit into 4/4. So if you think of the syncopation pattern of 7/8 against 4/4, and 12/8 against 4/4 and so on, you can keep switching meters and it will sound complicated but it's not.

This subdivision concept is not global -- I cannot subdivide 5/4 in 4/4 at least not anything that sounds like Jazz. That stands by itself (and other similar ratios). I don't know if that can be syncopated.

Now if you think of what Brad is doing by counting, it is massively complex. This is the big block in my initial understanding of Mehldau.

BTW - I don't think I would have grasped this on my own. My teacher went through his own history of searching for his own understanding of meters, and then he started asking his drummer buddies (big names as you can imagine, like those that played with Bill). His initial question was how to make 3/4 swing. So that's where the meter overlay came into the discussion since long ago he learned that from one of these drummers.

If you've never done it, 3 against 4 seems really difficult to absorb, especially in eighth notes. I think that's the main one that seems to be the base of it all. Now I can see that the basic syncopation that Brad uses is exactly based on this. I only know it because I practiced it. So this is no genius on my part. I just started hearing what I've been practicing.

So now my teacher doesn't refer to these as meters but as "syncopation" styles. Brad sticks long enough to a syncopation pattern and it will take the character of a meter. But then he changes the pattern and you could think of it as another meter change. I just hear the difference in the pattern itself.
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#1302468 - 11/10/09 12:20 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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I just had a listen and it's in 7/4 the entire time the rhythm section is playing...

I will bet $100 with anybody that claims otherwise.

| 1234,123 |

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#1302469 - 11/10/09 12:22 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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The intro is 7/4 also.

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#1302482 - 11/10/09 01:16 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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And you hear him phrase his lines 1234-123? That's not what I'm hearing Jazz+.

I tried to conceptualize what I'm hearing and I understand now that at least in this time signature, I'm hearing his phrasings in SIXTEENTH NOTES.

So the phrasing pattern in my ear, now that I write it down put it to paper is 14/8. And I'm hearing two sets of 7 notes phrases.

Patterns like this (in sixteenths):

|111_111
_111_11 |

|_111_11
_111_11 |

|111111_
111111 _|

I split the bars in two because then I hear each measure as 2/4. I'm hearing symmetrical patterns.

Whether it is a fact to you or not, I hear it as patterns that I can synchronize every 2 beats of 4/4 in my head.

So much work to write this down when I can already hear all the permutations and combinations in my head/ear.

The question now is "Why am I hearing Symmetrical Patterns in an Odd Meter?". You can judge for yourself but since it is symmetrical to me I don't feel like I get lost in it.

This is Jazz, not classical music. There has to be "pairs" of notes to swing. So in my hearing I can tap this like swing.
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#1302484 - 11/10/09 01:17 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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I'm curious Jazz+, how do you play a Jazz Waltz? 123-123 like classical?
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#1302486 - 11/10/09 01:19 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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You can think whatever you want... that doesn't change the reality that the bass player and the drummer are thinking and playing 7/4 the whole way.

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#1302487 - 11/10/09 01:21 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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Didn't you just claim that they change meters?
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#1302489 - 11/10/09 01:27 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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Of course Mehldau is doing poly-metric stuff over the top of the 7/4.

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#1302490 - 11/10/09 01:30 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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But I already agree that it is in 7. I just noted WHY I'm seeing it differently. And my vision of it allows me to also view the "poly-metric" as just 16th note pattern changes.
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#1302491 - 11/10/09 01:41 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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Jazz+

Yea, it's 7/4 for sure.. thank god, at least someone here agrees!! And I explained what he might be doing on the previous post.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Brad's solo is in 4/4 the whole way]. That's ok, etcetera, I don't have to explain it. I think I am happy that I'm understanding it. Obviously if it's so easily understood there would be 50 other Mehldaus now.



I never really got the feeling that we agreed on the song being in 7 until now.


Edited by etcetra (11/10/09 01:44 AM)

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#1302492 - 11/10/09 01:44 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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I wrote down the pattern in my head on paper, like I said, which I subdivided within the context of 2/4. When I actually counted the pattern I'm hearing it was in 14. But I still view it the same way. I'm tapping to it like 2/4.
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#1302493 - 11/10/09 01:45 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Brad's solo is in 4/4 the whole way. That's ok, etcetera, I don't have to explain it. I think I am happy that I'm understanding it. Obviously if it's so easily understood there would be 50 other Mehldaus now.


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#1302494 - 11/10/09 01:45 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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I'm certainly not counting it out as 1234-123 and make it swing.
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#1302496 - 11/10/09 01:47 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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Yeah right Jazz+, as you said it also changed meters.
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#1302497 - 11/10/09 01:47 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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btw for more information on rhythmic=superimpostion stuff, check out Bergonzi's Melodic Rhythms, What I was talking about earlier is somewhat based on that.

jazzwee,

On the solo part he actually change meter.. You'll see it very clearly when you see the transcription.

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
You are mostly correct, it's a lot of 7/8, but there are a few other sudden meter changes now and then.


So Jazz+ is correct as far as the solo part is concerned.. but when the rhythm section comes in, its in 7 all the way. And you can clearly hear 1234-123 from the rhythm section.


Edited by etcetra (11/10/09 01:53 AM)

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#1302501 - 11/10/09 01:56 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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On the recording I have of ATTYA, (Art Of The Trio, Volume 4) Mehldau plays 7 mostly in his solo piano intro but there are sections where he goes off the strict 7 that can measured as meter changes... when the bass and drums enter is 7/4 thereafter.

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#1302502 - 11/10/09 02:01 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Okay here's the transcription, take a look(you'll have to register to d/l the file).

http://www.pianofiles.com/search/music/sheets/brad+mehldau+-+all+the+things+you+are%28typhmedia%29

I don't see how you are able to feel 2/4 the entire way through this. That just doesn't make any sense.

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#1302503 - 11/10/09 02:02 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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OK. Granted the tune is in 7. I already agree to that as I counted what I heard at the beginning (Part 1).

Now help me out here because I can clearly hear AND see the bass player dishing out those quarter notes at 4 beats per chord.

Part 2: Go to 4:08. Watch Rossi's fingers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsW6K51lQkQ&feature=related

Am I blind (and deaf)? Or is he (a member of the Rhythm section) playing against the meter? You can clearly hear his changes.
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#1302504 - 11/10/09 02:05 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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Your ears are playing tricks on you, it happens to me too. The timing is flying by quickly.

The bass and drums play 7 (4 beats for a chord, then 3 beats for the next chord, then again 4 beats for the next chord, then 3 beats for the next chord, etc.)

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#1302505 - 11/10/09 02:12 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
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Originally Posted By: etcetra

I don't see how you are able to feel 2/4 the entire way through this. That just doesn't make any sense.


Because you're looking at the beats in 7 and I look at it at 14. Didn't you read what I hear in my head? And his patterns are divisible by two.

Anyway, this can only go so far because obviously you cannot hear the pattern superimposition I'm hearing. So let's just let it go.

My final comment on the 2/4 question:

My original post that started all this was that I can hear a pattern in my head that I can repeat, and I hear it in all of his playing. That premise hasn't changed regardless of the debate. One of these days my technical ability will allow me to execute what I hear.
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#1302506 - 11/10/09 02:13 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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Yea, Jazz+ is right

when you hear walking bass line in 7, it's easy to get lost and feel like it's in 4, because we are used to hearing walking bass line in 4. But if you listen carefully (or listen to it at a slower tempo using amazing slow downer) you'll find that its 4 beats per chord than 3 beats per chord.

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#1302507 - 11/10/09 02:13 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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Rossi's fingers on the bass? It's my friend Larry Grenadier on bass amd Jeff Ballard on drums. Your eyes are playing tricks on you now.

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#1302509 - 11/10/09 02:17 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Your ears are playing tricks on you, it happens to me too. The timing is flying by quickly.

The bass and drums play 7 (4 beats for a chord, then 3 beats for the next chord, then again 4 beats for the next chord, then 3 beats for the next chord, etc.)


OK. I'll accept that, although in 4/4 those chords in ATTYA take a full bar for each chord so I would have understood that to mean that in 7/4 each chord uses up all 7 beats. This is new to me that a chord would be split like that in an odd meter.
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#1302510 - 11/10/09 02:17 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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jazzwee,

I strongly urge you to take a look at the transcription.. the solo part is not in fixed meter!!!

I will write down the actual meter changes for the first 12 bars of Brad's solo piano intro for you

7/8|7/8|7/8|4/4
7/8|7/8|4/4|7/8
4/4|5/8|7/8|7/8

I hope you get my point now. So how you are feeling 2/4 over all that is beyond my understanding.




Edited by etcetra (11/10/09 02:20 AM)

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#1302511 - 11/10/09 02:18 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Rossi's fingers on the bass? It's my friend Larry Grenadier on bass amd Jeff Ballard on drums. Your eyes are playing tricks on you now.


Haha. Touche. I meant Larry. Rossi's back in Spain somewhere I presume.
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#1302512 - 11/10/09 02:19 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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|111_111
_111_11 |

|_111_11
_111_11 |

|111111_
111111 _|


Jazzwee,


Those look like just various groupings within 7, not sure what what's so unique about it. Don't need to think 2 for that, 2 will only make it less subdivided and thus more difficult.

4 beats then 3 beats ... I doubt he's thinking a wide 14

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#1302513 - 11/10/09 02:22 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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The bassist and drummer are thinking 7 and Brad too, though he does his various poly-rhythmic tricks over the top of it all.

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#1302514 - 11/10/09 02:29 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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I find listening to 7 not particularly enjoyable, it's tedious and sounds off kilter to me. I see it as one of those things where the players that are into it enjoy it more than the listeners. Jazzwee mentioned his teacher doesn't dig it much either. I much prefer Keith Jarret's uptempo 4/4 trio version of All The Things You Are. I have a very accurate transcription of that one too.

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#1302516 - 11/10/09 02:32 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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I edited the post as it didn't come out right initally

This is playing 3/4 over 7/4
(X represent accent)

X23X56X|12X45X7|1X34X67|


This is playing 5/4 over 7/4
X2345X7|123X567|1X3456X|1234567


So you can use rhythmic pattern in any meter and play it over any meter, as long as you know where you are. For example you can play the same rhythmic pattern as the one you hear on B section of "Take 5", and if you do it once you will be on 6th beat, if you do it twice you will be on the 4th beat of the next measure.. and so on.

Jazz+

I personally like 7, I like the groove, it's hard to describe. But I do agree that the way Brad's playing all these polyrhythm over it.. sometimes it's too much for me too.


Edited by etcetra (11/10/09 02:41 AM)

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#1302517 - 11/10/09 02:36 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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Before this went off into a meter discussion, I was only interested in Brad's phrasing and was intending to apply it to 4/4 as syncopations smile

But that's ok. It was rather educational as well thanks to you two. I don't think I'm planning on playing with switching meters randomly.
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#1302518 - 11/10/09 02:41 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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Brad appears to switch meters in his intro, probably subconsiously too.

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#1302519 - 11/10/09 02:42 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
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etc., I have to sign off now but in your meter discussions, where's the swing?

When playing 3/4, the masters overlay a 4/4 over it to make it swing. So the notes sounded are in BETWEEN. That same "in between" can be found in the first 3 beats in a 5/4.

This was why I was interested in Brad. Not because of the meter. That's where the phrasing was that I was paying attention to and recognizing the pattern.

My premise is that Brad swings because he subdivides more finely. I hope that doesn't start another debate.
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#1302520 - 11/10/09 02:45 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
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I wouldn't be surprised if he had something worked out... or maybe he did initially and he's able to switch things up between different variation...

like at the end of first phrase maybe he figured out an ending in 2/4 or 5/4, and he has the option to use either one of them at will (hypothetically)

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#1302522 - 11/10/09 02:46 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Here's "Fifty Ways To Leave Your Lover" played by Mehldau, guess what meter he is in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR8iiDEF4ek

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#1302524 - 11/10/09 02:48 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Mehldau and Metheny Duo "All The Things You Are"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8j_LRFO4Lc

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#1302552 - 11/10/09 05:49 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Boy, what a roller coaster ride. I learned a lot here guys. We were clearly not on the same page and now I understand why you were so agitated Etcetera.

I thought you were trying to tell me that the tune went like this:

| 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 |
or
| 7/4 | 7/4 | 7/4 | 7/4 |

And I couldn't hear that so I kept countering you. Now it becomes clear that the measures actually go:

| 4/4 | 3/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 |
totalling to a 7/4 time sig. Wow, what a mess smile

Next time, I'll know to clarify the progression. So this clarifies in my head what I'm hearing and why I could be fooled into hearing a 4/4 with all the poly-rhythms going on.

I appreciate the explanations.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1302553 - 11/10/09 05:50 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
I'm not going to listen now but I recall the Metheny/Mehldau version to be 5/4.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1302613 - 11/10/09 09:25 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
when people say 7/4 its almost always 4+3.. you can think of it as 4/4+3/4, but its usually written as 7/4


Edited by etcetra (11/10/09 09:36 AM)

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#1302710 - 11/10/09 12:48 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
According to Jeff Ballard the drummer, after a bar of 4 and a bar of 3, another way they think of 7 is "half time 7"

Two bars( in 7/4):

1,3,5,7,2,4,6,1.....etc

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