I played from Beethoven's op14/1 sonate the Allegretto on pianoteq (I played on my Kawai CA111), the preset is my own after lots of tweaking.

http://www.box.net/shared/d23lr0z8u9

Very nice playing, and I think Pianoteq 3.5 definitely sounds much better than v3.0. I still slightly prefer TruePianos for its sound, but the responsiveness of PT is impressive and its sound is improving.

V3.5 also seems to use the CPU more liberally than v3.0 did (at least on my MacBook), so perhaps that's also a reason for the better sound.

Victor25, if possible, may I suggest you share a MIDI file of your performance, allowing others to 'render' audio recordings using their favourite software pianos. It would be interesting to have a comparison, similar to that of propianist's excellent movie created a couple of years ago.

Cheers,
James
x

Note that there is already a comparison of digital pianos (both hardware and software) here:
http://www.purgatorycreek.com/

That latest version of Pianoteq isn't there at the time of writing however.

Greg.

I guess I don't understand it. With Pianoteq 3.5, sitting at my DP with 2 8 inch monitors and a subwoofer I feel like I'm enveloped with sound, vibrations, resonance. With TruePianos I feel like I'm pressing buttons to make sounds... better than my native DP sounds but light years short of Pianoteq. I haven't tried Ivory yet... but would if they let a demo out (Im not paying $380 without a test drive.)

It makes me wonder if people's set ups are completely different or if we just have a different ear. I suppose it's a combination of both and it works that way with acoustics as well. In my local piano shop other models are more popular but I'm in love with the $30,000 Yamaha C6, but can't justify its purchase because it sounds just like my custom settings for the Pianoteq M3.

Sullivang: Thanks for the purgatorycreek link. Synthology Ivory definitely is the best on the site. Their Pianoteq sounds nothing like my Pianoteq settings... so I take it with grain of salt but it does make me want to try Ivory... just wish they would release a playable demo... do they have something to hide or are they just clueless about marketing?

AlphaTerminus: There is a site that has a collection of instruments, including Ivory, which allows them to be auditioned live over the internet. I can't find the damn thing at the moment though. If anyone knows the link please advise!

re: TruePianos, it's been a while since I've tried the demo, but I remember it sounding very good - very rich and complex tone (like a sampled piano), and very nice stereo image. I also think it sounds very good in digital piano shootout.

FWIW, the digital piano demo recording I like the most, out of everything I've ever heard so far, is the main demo that plays on the Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano page: http://www.artvista.net/Virtual_Grand_Piano.html

Greg.

Odd isn't it, when I was deciding which software piano to buy Truepianos and Pianoteq were my favourites but whereas Pianoteq felt organic and responsive and sounded pretty much like a Piano, Truepianos sounded a little synthetic and felt more mechanical. This was Pianoteq 2 (PTQ3 was a big leap forward in quality and 3.5 is better still) around 18months to 2 years ago. So despite being significantly more expensive I went with Pianoteq.

The Diamond and Emerald pianos weren't available in the demo from what I remember so maybe they make a big difference? I like the sound of the Amber piano too which hadn't been released when I last tried it. I'm downloading the demo again now, hope they've added the Diamond, Emerald and Amber models!

Edit: I remembered wrong, the Diamond piano comes with Truepianos demo, it's the Sapphire, Emerald and Amber pianos that are missing.

sullivang, that demo does sound great. I wish I knew what is being done, to make the tone come thru so well. I played the ArtVista Virtual Grand for c.2 years - just did load into Cubase again - it sounds good, but not that good;-)

I like very much that the demo includes exposed, sustained notes. So often in demo tunes the notes go buy so quickly that it's difficult to tell what they sound like.

That's probably the developer, Hans, playing. His improv was easily the best of the previous demos. Didn't check to see if it's still in the demos section.

Just to be open minded, I dl'd the Truepianos demo.

But I can't find a way to play a midi file - of can this be done in TP?

Glenn

I think you'll need to use it as a VSTI in another app.

Here's that site that allows one to actually PLAY large sample libraries in (quasi) real-time over the 'net, without having to install the products: http://www.try-sound.com/

Greg.

I've tried the TruePianos demo again and here's what I notice:
- I still think it has a richness that I haven't quite heard from Pianoteq yet.
- Pianoteq's sympathetic resonance is better, and overall it's a more thorough reproduction of a piano.
- TruePianos doesn't seem to reproduce soft timbres well - the timbre is too aggressive. (and I did match the lower velocity threshold to my keyboard)
- TruePianos isn't *physically* modelled in the same way that Pianoteq is. (if it is, why can't we change the parameters of the model?) For this reason, I think of TruePianos *more* as a sampled piano that takes up little disk space, than as a modelled piano.

I'd rather have Pianoteq plus a few sampled pianos than TruePianos. Hopefully it won't be too long before I can ditch the sampled pianos.

Greg.

After looking at the TP site carefully, I have the impression that it IS using samples. Which to my mind automatically limits the program. Once a sample is recorded, there is a limit to how much it can be manipulated.

A recording of Donald Duck singing Begin the Beguine will never sound like Frank Sinatra no matter how much it is manipulated. Samples are just discrete pieces of a recording.

As obvious as it sounds, the problem with samples is that they are just samples. Samples are discrete and static whereas music is a dynamic process.

Pianoteq hasn't perfected the piano sound yet, but it's the best bet for the future.

Glenn

Ok I will upload the midi file today, and maybe make another demo using an M3 preset which I'v been tweaking. For me Ivory does sound more pretty, but also alot less realistic. Its more like Ivory has the perfect steinway sound, but it really doesn't sound like a piano being played, its just single notes following each other, no cohesion whatsoever, and the pedaling is just unacceptable for a piano player. Pianoteq sounds more like a real piano, not like the perfect piano, but like a real one. If you listen to ivory and then go to a real concert with a steinway, the sound will almost disappoint you because ivory is just too nice (flawless) of a sound, which in real life seems impossible. This has been my experience with the 2 so far anyway, I have never tried Truepiano's.

I think you've identified the problems:

"Ivory has the perfect Steinway sound, but it doesn't sound like a piano being played".

". . just single notes following each other. ."

". . and the pedaling is just unacceptable for a piano player".

I've been referring to it as connectivity. It's the damper pedal that gives us continuity. Otherwise it becomes "choppy". It's particularly noticeable during live playing as you say.

Incidentally, you might try adjusting the microphones in Pianoteq. The default position for Solo Recording has two mics "behind" the piano (to the left of the long straight side), and two slightly above and away from the concave curve of the piano.

I centre mic 1 over the soundboard about one meter up. Mics 2 and 3 are left/right on either side of the pianist's head, (L/R channels), and mic 4 is at a position that is commonly called close micing - a bit higher up than mic 1, and about a metre from the concave edge of the piano.

Using headphones, I rotate the cans so they are in a position that a pianist would be wearing them (or move them more over the soundboard).

Other than that I don't fiddle with any of the preset values for M3 or any other piano.

The developers would be using a very high end sound system with which to judge the output during development. Thus, I am convinced that if a lot of tweaking is required from the defaults in Pianoteq, then one is unwittingly making up for weakness(es) in their sound system.

Glenn

Glenn could you post a preset with the above mentioned mic setup?

'The developers would be using a very high end sound system with which to judge the output during development. Thus, I am convinced that if a lot of tweaking is required from the defaults in Pianoteq, then one is unwittingly making up for weakness(es) in their sound system.'

I have a studio myself, and the changes I make have more to do with recreating my experience with piano's. The tweakability was the main reason for me to buy it, this way I can get it to sound good on the speakers (and much more important, the soundboard) of my Kawai CA111.