Apparently most of the Americans chose the Hamburg model also.

It's possible that familiarity had something to do with it for the non American competitors, but that also assumes that some of the best young pianists in the world are not very sensitive to tonal/touch differences.

39 out of 40 is not some simple majority.

Also, the American techs who contribute to Larry Fine rankings consistently rate Hamburg better, although this may be more about quality than tonal preference. Rebuilt Hamburg Steinways sold in the US often sell for more than their equivalent NY rebuilds.

Re the Cliburn...

Please can I see the numbers again regarding the choices made by the performers...
Were these choices consistent throughout the competition? or did competitors switch depending on program etc.
What was the choice of the winner?

Where can I get the corroboration of all of these numbers?

In the end, who cares?
Both are great pianos made with care in their respective factories by craftsmen who know how to make a musical instrument.

Regarding the history thing...that's all it is....history....and opinion....the facts are in there somewhere...if the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts....ask Karl Rove!...one great piano player.

What bothers me and probably whippen boy is that "it's not really much of a question" to you. What's the point of so strongly trying to defend something that's so subjective?

If you had said the same thing about Hamburg Steinways in the way you did(Hamburg clearly sounds better), I would also have disagreed.

NY Steinway hammers from pre WWII were extremely soft. The technique of building tone in a soft hammer by adding lacquer or other hardeners dates well before WWII. European pianos used to also have much softer hammers that were more similar to today's NY Steinway hammers then they would be to today's typical German hammers.



The Steinway O was developed in the United States. NY Steinway changed to the L in the early 20s, and Hamburg continued with the O.
Hamburg Steinway hammers are just about the softest out of the box hammer that Renner makes.



Hamburg Steinway makes their own actions using renner parts made to their design. This is a big distinction from say an Estonia action or a Bluethner action, both of which are Renner actions made at the Renner factory in Stuttgart to Estonia and Bluethner's respective designs.
The Hamburg action is more similar to an older NY action in design. The NY action has some more modern features such as the accelerated action, which is of debatable advantage. The actions are fairly similar in design, although the execution of the design is generally much better in the Hamburg pianos. The pianos do sound different although clearly from the same gene pool.

By the way, Steingraeber sources very soft hammers from Renner ( the only other Renner hammer that is as soft as the Hamburg Steinway hammers....maybe even a bit softer)
The Steingraeber hammers are lacquered to build tone as part of their standard process at the factory. Hamburg Steinway also lacquers their hammers at the factory.

I'm sorry it bothered you. You may very well be right, but to ME, the NY model sounds clearly better; hence my surprise at Fine's rankings, at the choices at that festival, and my post. I am honestly really quite surprised.

Of course you are entitled to your (strongly held) opinion, and no, I'm not bothered at all by your preference for the NY sound.

But some of your posts seem critical of Hamburg pianos... which is odd since you have never played one.

And as pianoloverus says, it is all so subjective anyway: we like what we like... at least until we broaden our horizons.

They are essentially the same piano. Why do people keep talking about this?

No specific numbers, but it was a mixed bag as far as choices this year. There were 3 pianos; two belonged to the Cliburn and the third was out of the basement at Steinway Hall. One of the Cliburn pianos is a NY, finished in lacquer. The second is a Hamburg. They said on the webcast how old these were, but I can't remember now. Some performers showed a clear preference for one (mostly the Hamburg and the lacquer NY), while a few switched pianos between rounds.

The two Cliburn pianos were easily the best sounding. The NY had rich warm tone and typical huge bass and the Hamburg had a very unique timbre; warm, yet clear and crisp. Finalist Evgehni Bozhanov played it exclusively throughout the competition. And I must say tonally it was the best piano there, even though the other Cliburn D had bigger bass. The C&A D sounded cold to my ears; it didn't have the warmth one usually associates with the New York instrument, and I think that is why it was played the least, particularly in the semis and finals.

WB, by no means did I mean to be critical of the Hamburg model. It would be my top choice for a piano, if there were no New York model. And you're right that my judgment may be premature, since I have yet to play a Hamburg. I will try to remain open-minded.

Horowitzian, thanks for clarifying re: the competition pianos.

A previous poster in the thread said 39 out of 40 pianists chose the Hamburg.

That poster said 39 of the FINAL 40 chose it.

Ther'es a possible confounding factor here. It's conceivable that during competition the judges had a bias toward the Hamburg sound, choosing 39 of 40 finalists that played the Hamburg model during the earlier round(s) of competition.

Of course, one could then counter by asking why the judges prefer the Hamburg sound...

Anyway, it's clear that some prefer the New York model, while others prefer the Hamburg. To me, the New York model is warmer and more expressive, while the Hamburg sounds brighter and clearer. I prefer the New York sound. And that's why I was surprised by Fine's rankings.

And that's the last post I need to make here. No need to beat a dead horse.

There were only 40 competitors in the Forth Worth Competition to the best of my knowledge. That's what Horowitzian's post referred to.No one was referring to preliminaries that were held around the world where there may have been no choice in pianos or if there were choices they weren't well known.

I visited the dealer the other day and saw new NY pianos with the usual satin lacquer on the outside, but poly on inner side of the fallboard. They looked really nice and will prevent fallboard scratches.

Arnie,

I think the problem is your statement that "the NY model sounds better". It is akin to saying that chocolate ice cream tastes "better" that vanilla.

The truth is that they sound different, and many people with similar experience prefer one over the other.

BTW, Larry's ratings of Steinway (and all ther brands) are no longer based "primarily" on piano technicians. While tech's opinions are certainly considered, his ratings are based on a wide range of piano professionals. The general concensus, worldwide, is that the Hamburg Steinway is of better overall quality than the NY Steinways. Reasonable people may rightfully disagree, but this is the consensus. As Hamburg and NY continued to "align" design and production, consensus is that the gap is narrowing.

Keith,
Thanks for providing some corrective information to the "just so" story of "How the Hammers Got Their Lacquer". Always interesting to hear how these things get spun.

I know some of the finalists and can certainly ask a few why they chose what they chose. I think we would get a variety of answers. This also does not address what their choices might have been if they had had other choices than only S&S.(Remember that the Cliburn is now an S&S only venue).

I can say that the winner, young Haochen Zhang, could have chosen any piano for his public recital in preparation for the Van Cliburn and he did not choose either Steinway.

Here he is just after his recital in Philadelphia:




My 2 cents,

My 10 cents

http://cliburn.org/uploads/images/imagegallery/Zhang_performance2.jpg

Gary is dead wrong; go watch the archives at cliburn.tv and you'll see. Perhaps the fact that the C&A D was a high gloss finish was confusing?

Directly from the Prelims videos:

Mayumi Sakamoto — Cliburn Hamburg D

Yeol Eum Son — NY Steinway C&A D

Kyu Yeon Kim — Cliburn Hamburg D

Yoonjung Han — NY Steinway C&A D

Amy J. Yang — NY Steinway C&A D

Haochen Zhang — Cliburn NY D

Andrea Lam — NY Steinway C&A D

Ang Li — NY Steinway C&A D

Ilya Rashkovskiy — NY Steinway C&A D

Evgeni Bozhanov — Cliburn Hamburg D

Victor Stanislavsky — Cliburn NY D

Mariangela Vocatello — Cliburn Hamburg D

Feng Zhang — Cliburn Hamburg D

Lukas Vondracek — Cliburn NY D

Alessandro Deljavan — Cliburn Hamburg D

Michail Lifits — Cliburn Hamburg D

Ning Zhou — Cliburn Hamburg D

Zhang Zhou — Cliburn NY D

Naomi Kudo — NY Steinway C&A D

Nobuyuki Tsujii — NY Steinway C&A D

Vassilis Varvaresos — Cliburn NY D

Di Wu — Cliburn Hamburg D

Soyeon Lee — Cliburn Hamburg D

Eduard Kunz — Cliburn Hamburg D

Spencer Myer — Cliburn Hamburg D

Chetan Tierra — NY Steinway C&A D

Ran Dank — Cliburn NY D

Stephen Beus — Cliburn Hamburg D

Natacha Kudritskaya — Cliburn NY D

So let's total those up:

Cliburn Hamburg D — 13 pianists

Cliburn NY D — 7 pianists

NY C&A D — 9 pianists

13+7+9= 29, due to one contestant out of an original 30 withdrawing. Where the heck did 40 come from??? Also, 16 pianists chose a NY piano, while 13 chose the Hamburg in the prelims. Hardly a "39 out of 40" proposition. Learn to count, and get back to us.

I thought he was sensational. He moved me tremendously from the very opening chords of his Beethoven Op. 110 to the end of the Prokofiev PC. How was he received at his preCliburn recital?

Is that an Imperial? Did he know he wanted to play a Bosendorfer or did he try other makes also? Is the piano from Cunningham?

Can you tell us a few personal things about him(assuming you met him)?

Can't wait for him to play in NYC. It will be one of the few concerts I'll actually pay for in a long time since there are so many free ones in NYC.

Aren't facts grand? Amazing what can happen when you stay in the "reality based" universe.....

....very much so!

So typically obnoxious, whoever you were talking to. (I didn't count anything, just reporting what another poster said.)

'Nuff said.

Horo...
You're sooo good....

The figures you presented match the impression I got during the event...
Facts is facts :-)

No best or better...all good.

Thank you for your support, Peter!

I'm glad that you had a similar impression. Facts is facts, and posters like PLUS can run but they can't hide from them :-)

Very much...in fact I'm listening to Varvaresos's Liszt Bm right now, on the Cliburn NY D.

Sarcastic and obnoxious as usual.

I'm neither running nor hiding. They weren't my facts and even if they were there's nothing to run from.

I even told the OP I would have said the same thing regarding his comments if NY had been preferred.

Peter, I assume you deal mostly with NY Steinway?

Hey, PLUS, posting the same words all the time is getting pretty boring.

Boring beats obnoxious anytime.

Wish I had a dollar for every time you used the smiley to mean a sarcastic and obnoxious smile instead of a friendly smile.

/ignore

It's ever fascinating how the most obnoxious and unfriendly people always seem to think that somebody else has the problem.

Steven