I'm considering a piano that has been only partially rebuilt (action) but the seller told me straight up that the pinblock is shot and has to be replaced since the piano won't hold a tuning much longer.

Can anyone tell me how much this might cost for a 6 ft grand--and how the pinblock replacement might affect the tone of the piano as well as the other parts?

Is it true that the piano would then need to be completely restrung?

The soundboard of this one is original too and cracked. I may hold up on replacing it since the piano sounds so good still. I'd like opinions of anybody who's replaced their soundboards and whether the piano was still recognizable or completely changed in tone and character.

Should pinblock and soundboard be done at the same time? Does it matter? Does one affect the other?

Yes , yes, and yes.

Tell me more, so I understand how and why, and what happens if I don't do the soundboard.

The difference is a lot of time and money. Plus, what make of piano is it? It may not be worth the financial outlay.

It's a Steinway.

My understanding is that the pinblock in and of itself is a significant outlay.

The goal of rebuilding a piano is to put the instrument into its best condition, so the piano sounds, feels, and performa as it was meant to, or better. The manufacturer of your piano meant for the instument to hold up for a useful life of fifty to seventy years. Rebuilding this piano can breathe a whole new life into this instrument, but it certainly will change the tone and touch from what it is now. (What a waste of you could not tell a difference).

Well done, a proper rebuild will improve everyhing about the piano, but if you do not have experience with what this piano could be I would definitely recommend playing some rebuilt Steinways done by your chosen rebuilder.

We always have a stock of instruments on hand to help educate customers on the possibilities of what their piano will be when it is rebuilt.

I hope that helps,

While visiting restoration shops, you should do a comparison on the cost of buying and rebuilding this piano, or purchasing an instrument that is already completely restored. With this piano, there is the matter of the action work to be considered.. What exactly was replaced, and what changes might a rebuilder want to make (if any) during the restoration process.

So really the Steinway is going to be like a new Steinway? Doesn't this mean they have to add all Steinway parts? Is this typically what rebuilders do?

I looked at a lot of rebuilt pianos when I was shopping including some really nicely worked over Heintzmans (53 in uprights and grants). In my view none of them were worth the price that this kind of labour-intensive work tends to generate.

That totally depends on the rebuilders work and the final outcome of the tone, touch and looks.
Worth, can mean many things to different people.

My question really is the following: if you put a new action, new sound board and new pinblock into an old Steinway, is it still a Steinway? It would seem to me that the piano would takeon the identity of the new parts regardless of what the old case says.

I'm not trying to slag down re0builders btw - as a green enterprise, rebuilding clearly makes a great deal of sense. I just wonder whether people who buy re-built Steinways aren't really buying a new piano in an old box.

If you replace the parts with Steinway parts and do it the way Steinway factory does, for sure.

Installing a new pin block requires removing the cast iron plate and unstringing the piano. It a little like rebuilding an automobile engine. Once you are inside you might as well spend a little more and do the whole thing.

Just so we are clear, you are talking about spending several thousands of dollars and will not know how the piano will play or sound until it is done.

Thanks, Marty, that is helpful.

I guess it would make sense to replace the strings as well when we do the pinblock, since they are, if not original, quite old.

The piano is from 1917.

To be clear, are you saying that replacing the pinblock will change the tone? (If we don't do the soundboard)

This piano has quite a special, sweet tone as it is, and I wouldn't want that to change too much. Isn't it the soundboard that creates that tone?

Justin, there are not an unlimited amount of suppliers of quality piano parts. There are a few action parts manufacturers, a handful of bass-string makers and likely just as few wire makers. How many soundboard makers are there in the USA? A few! The action parts are for the most part geometrically identical for a given make. They have to be, otherwise the action feel would be totally different and unacceptable to a demanding pianist. Assuming that action center friction is consistent, you will not be able to divine whether the parts are Steinway, Tokiwa, Renner or WN&G, if used in the same Steinway M for example.

A pinblock is nothing more than high-quality plywood. Most modern pinblock material is superior to that offered during the "golden era" for example. Its only purposes are to insure a good grip on the tuning pin and a good fit to the plate to aid in tuning stability, along with a certain amount of structural support at the keyboard end of the case. Once again there are a handful of makers. Assuming that the pinblock is properly installed in the case as original it would not be discernible whether it was a genuine Steinway block or any other block. It is debatable though, whether it imparts anything sonically. Personally I would doubt it.

Soundboard construction once again, if the goal is to duplicate the original, should not change the character of the instrument if it is duplicated accurately. Del has at length imparted how different designs can affect the final tone of the instrument positively or negatively. Hunt for those threads, many of which are recent. In a discussion I had with Nick Gravagne, he told me that the ribs their location and design had more to do with a piano's character than almost anything else. My question to him at the time was if he's building boards for every make, why then does a Baldwin sound like a Baldwin and a Steinway a Steinway? The board is only part of a complex bunch of parameters that will eventually define an instrument's "voice".

I don't believe that it is the goal of any rebuilder to do much other than come closest to the manufacturer's design goal for that instrument. There are of course the rare exceptions like Del that can go beyond the original intent armed with 21st century knowledge and actually improve on a design hailed over the years to be superior.

Mapes supplies strings to Steinway. They also supply them to rebuilders. I would assume that most bass strings would be identical without regard to whom they were supplied.

Voicing and regulation on a given instrument can actually transform a said instrument's character,moreso than action parts, pinblocks and soundboards.

I believe the "original parts" argument is specious. It is sort of like saying that if you replace your water-pump, spark plug wires, tires and fanbelts on your Chevrolet, it's not a Chevrolet because those parts are no longer OEM identical and that of course would not be the case. It might be argued successfully in either case that some aftermarket parts might actually be superior to those supplied by the OEM, while not changing the character of either.

Yes, of course a pin block is somewhat inert and has no effect on the tone. Yes, strings come from a variety of vendors. Suggesting that action parts and hammers ought to be genuine Steinway parts is hardly a "specious" suggestion. There are two camps out there in the rebuilding world. One believes in the use of Steinway parts on Steinways and the other does not. Both are valid.

Everybody's comments are right on so far which makes life easier for one with the hunt and peck capability. So... I'll just add my 2 cents

A 1917 Steinway grand is getting up there age wise where as not much will be salvageable in a comprehensive rebuild. Depending on what exactly was addressed ,most of the time those newer parts that might have been addressed at an earlier point won't be saved ex.bass strings,new hammers on old shanks etc.

It will be difficult to install a new soundboard,bridges and ribs without changing the pinblock though vise versa people change pinblocks regularly without changing the soundboard. 99% of the time one changes the pinblock when changing the soundboard. Setting the height of the pinblock and harp,notching bridges,setting downbearing,I would say comes hand in hand when installing the new soundboard.

Of course,we are all just speculating as for the exact condition of the pinblock whether it be original or replaced 50 years ago or ?
Of course it is best to address the complete top end simultaneously,though you might want to consult someone as to exactly,how those pins feel as for the condition of the pinblock.Maybe you can pound the pins or put oversized pins in for the time being until that point whereas you have the finances to address the complete topend. It is a case by case basis on what you could or should do

If it needs all ths restorative work ,I hope you are paying near the "core" value of the piano. If you are planning on paying considerably more $ for this fixerupper,you shouldn't be.
How's the finish?
What exactly did one do action wise?
What constitutes the the term "partially rebuilt?
What mdl. is it? O? L? AIII ?
How much dinero for the piano?

Fascinating posts guys! For the record, I opted for a new Perzina (and dear god let's not get into the 'are Chinese pianos any good debate!) over several rebuilt Heitzmans (both from Jamie Paddon in Toronto who I believe do good work) and a rebuilt Nordheimer (Paul Hahn, also top notch). But I still find the subject very interesting and still find myself wandering into piano stores and checking out what's around in new and rebuilt pianos.

Some day I intend to buy a grand and plan on setting several years aside to make up my mind....

"If it needs all ths restorative work ,I hope you are paying near the "core" value of the piano. If you are planning on paying considerably more $ for this fixerupper,you shouldn't be."

So that is my question, what is the core value of the A?

I realize there are dealers on this forum who may not want that information known by potential consumers. Maybe you can PM me if that is so. It would really help me to know.

An AIII at 6'4 1/2" is actually a valuble piano in most restoration circles. In that they were only manufactured from 1913-late 1930(s) and to the mid 40(s)via special order only.They are not all that plentiful but not considered a rare find either. It's hard to find one when you need one As for scale many consider them superior or more consistent to B(s)in a bit smaller package. The market value as for a unrestored AIII will vary in the condition variable of one from 1913 to one of 1945 though both may be restoration candidates.

BFF, check your PM's
John

Actually,there is a school,Steinway included that feel the pinblock is not inert and it's installation should be apart of one entity that reasonates along with the case,soundboard etc. I'm curious as for,especially rebuilders whether upon changing that pinblock one dowels the new pinblock to the stretcher bar. What! Specialized question!

PB

We always dowel the block in.

Steve

I always epoxy the pinblock to the strecher. I doubt that the case needs the added rigidity. If anything it would prevent the strecher from some unwanted resonances. The pinblock likely vibrates about as much as the plate it is firmly bolted to, which is why sonically there might be little merit in the extra step, but since the factory saw fit to do so, I go the distance. I have torn apart some old Baldwins and Webers that also go the extra distance with gluing the block to the strecher.

Hey Steve, You know I'm refering to, in restoration the horizontal dowels going through the STRETCHER bar into the pinblock not the regular vertical dowels.Makes it tuff sometimes to hide those little circles in that African flame mahogany veneer. In restoration, the methods can vary depending whether the piano is black,wood finish,to be refinished or not.Upon manufacturing the piano when NEW, I believe the dowels are inserted from the pinblock into the stretcher bar. Just curious as for among restorers.

We dowel to the stretcher. The method used depends on a variety of factors, including if there is finish work to be done, or if the stretcher had to come out, as is quite often the case with "2nd generation" rebuilds.

If the finish work is already done, or is being kept original, then it would obviously be best not to go in through the front of the stretcher. For that, you'll want a set of these to help spot the holes accurately. Do make sure to cut the cut the dowels accurately, since leaving one even a little long can make gluing in the pinblock a bit stressful.

The greatest challenge going through the front of the stretcher, is making sure the finish doesn't shrink back differently than the surrounding area. Fancy grain or no, the end-grain absorbs finish differently, and 'moves' differently through the seasons. Splicing in a piece of matching veneer over the area will help prevent those little circles from showing up. If you've taken the stretcher out, you'll need to use a similar technique for the top, near the edges.

I do not believe the dowels by themselves contribute in to the tone. Their purpose it to strengthen the stretcher-pinblock joint. While even the 'necessity' of that can be debated, it is how these pianos were built, and we are in the 'restorations' business..

While it's possible that doing a 'fully fit' pinblock, (glued to the stretcher, case, and rims on both sides, and very precise front and top flange fit) contributes somethingto the tone, it can be difficult to quantify exactly what.. The closest thing to a test we could come up with, is in cases where we're doing a block and action only, on a piano that has already had its pinblock replaced, and converted to a 'floater' in the last 10-20 years. Since we usually rebuild the action first, there is an opportunity to hear the piano with the two different systems. The difference in sound can be quite dramatic. Still other things come into play, such as improvements in bearing, etc.

Ah...But Rich,new strings will also make the difference between the two to add to that unknown variable. But I get the drift!
We actually do this comparative analysis moreso with that of new soundboards discerning between the different vintages
in assessing whether the case and harp attribute to the overall sound. ex. Identical remanufacture of a 1925 L vrs a 1975 L utilizing the same Alaskan sitka spruce,Renner action,same rebuilder,same bellyman etc. Interesting results! Of course we all know this hand made variable of Steinways does not make this task any easier. A pattern developes after many many many restorations.

I know ten guys that do pinblocks and everybody does it different. Interesting!

New pin block = piano stays in tune = improved tone.
I do the same as John - epoxy the block to the stretcher as well as the case - dowels are always removed.
If you want to maximize tone, touch and performance, all rebuilding work will be custom.

I also epoxy to the stretcher and dowel the ends. No floaters in my shop.

At one time perhaps 18 years ago I used to put angled dowels through the block into the stretcher after the glue had set. Not anymore. Since I glue in my blocks while attached to the plate it would be difficult to pre align hidden dowels.
I like to glue in my blocks with the plate so I get a perfect mate to the underside of
the plate.