Hi,

Newbie question.

As part of setting a temperment I am attempting to tune a M3 (G#36 to C40). What I am reading tells me to tune G#36 beatless to C40. If I do this am I not raising the pitch of G#36 to a C and risking breaking the string?

After getting this interval beatless I them am supposed to lower the pitch of G#36 (which is up at a C pitch?) so that I get a beat rate of 8. I can understand that but I don't feel good about stretching the G# string to what? 100 cents sharp?

Please clear this muddy water for me.


Thanks


TB

AUTPHF:

G#3 can be beatless with C4 and still be G#3. G#3 is tuned so that its 5ths partial (which is C6) is at the same frequency as the 4th partial of C4 (which also is C6). Then when G#3 is lowered by about 14 cents, the partials will no longer be at the same frequency. There will be about 8 hz difference which is perceived as 8 bps.

But yours is a novice question, and not in line with the purpose of this Forum. You should find a tuner to help you in person.

The word beatless is not used exclusively for unisons. From what I understand from your post, you meant to raise G#36 400 cents and make it C40 ("raising the pitch of G#36 to a C"). The instructions can't be saying that, you are supposed to tune a beatless third, not a unison.

As Jeff said, that means the G# is going to be SLIGHTLY higher for a moment, you will get it slightly lower (consider the 8 beats number as reference, it's pointless to be guided by that alone). Don't attempt to tune that G# to sound exactly like a C.

And Jeff is right, having somebody help you in person would make things much less difficult.

On the other hand, this could be an excellent opportunity to learn to change a string!

Hi,

LOL.


Thanks for the explanation.

Cheers

AUTPHF:

If it is not practical for you to get personal help from a local tuner, say so. Perhaps someone could help you through PMs. That way, "Too Many Cooks Won't Spoil the Broth", either.

Autphf, you should study the theory behind tuning some more. You need to understand the whole picture thoroughly before putting the lever to the pin. Even if you don't break the string, you can only pull it sharp so much before permanently ruining it. It also wouldn't hurt learn about Hooke's Law and Young's modulus of elasticity first.
Oh, and never forget the golden newbie rule...if your reefing on the lever and it seems like the damn string is stuck and not changing pitch...your on the wrong pin.

I appreciate the intended help all.

Please be advised that I do have (and read) the Reblitz book, A beginners Guide to Piano tuning by Dennis Kurk and the CD from Steves Piano Service. I have also read alot of whats on the web, and have been reading a lot of the posts in this forum - trying to glean what I can from some pretty heavy / technical stuff.

So while not very indepth WRT piano tuning I do know enough to begin experimenting with tuning unisons / octaves and some intervals - without damaging my piano - and if I break a string - so what? It's never happened before?. My biggest (currently biggest) shortfall is understanding how Major and minor intervals are derived, funny considering I can play the piano abit - took it up at 40 - even taught myself the entire first movement of Moonlight Sonata!


All I was looking for here was a simple - helpful - answer to a simple question. Instead I kinda feel like I'm being treated as a bit of a parhia because I want to learn to tune my own piano - hope this isn't the case and I'm being a bit too sensitive.


Anyway thanks for the intended help.


Cheers


TB

Autphf, you can pick up an evaluation version of TuneLab and it would help you zero in the intervals close enough to be able to identify the proper beats your listening for. From there you can very gently manipulate the pin to get the interval beatless. I was concerned from your original posting that you were swinging through the proper pitch and possibly going up a 100 cents, in which case you would begin hearing the beats from a minor 3rd (different partials but similar effect). Hope it works out for ya.

Autphf:

I see nothing wrong with someone doing whatever they like with their own property. But this Forum is not for DIYs. So I see a problem with a question like “How do I tune 3rds on my piano?” But I do not see a problem with a question like “How are major and minor intervals derived?” Actually, I think that is a very cool question.

If you are talking about the m3 and the M3 in a minor triad in root position, there are some interesting relationships that I do not believe are common knowledge (and therefore are probably considered trivial.) For a theoretic, harmonic piano the m3 is 16 cents narrow from just intonation (6:5 partial match) and the M3 is 14 cents wide of just intonation (5:4 partial match). This means that the P5 interval (from the root to the fifth) is 2 cents narrow of just intonation (3:2 or 6:4 partial match). Also the beatspeed of the m3 minus the beatspeed of the M3 equals the beatspeed of the P5 (6:4 partial match not the 3:2 partial match). But these relationships have validity even in the face of inharmonicity, and even if the justness of the intervals is changed. I use this relationship when setting the temperament because it gives insight to the difference in the 3:2 and 6:4 partial matches of poorly scaled pianos. Oddly, the M3 and m3 in a major triad does not have these relationships.

I don't think that anyone cares that you are tuning your own piano. The problem is the question asked. You asked if you were supposed to pull G# up to C and then back down again. It is a bit like asking which end of the tuning lever you are supposed to hold. You might get a bit of a ribbing with some of your newbie questions but you'll get lots of help too. Stick with it, keep up the research, your questions will get better and the replies will too.

Hi TB,

I think you might have confused the term beatless with the term unison. Tuning a third beatless, ie. F3-A3 means that rather than hearing the ~6.92 beats per second (the theoretical beat rate interval for that third), you are tuning the F3 so it does not have those beats relative to A3. You would then flatten F3 enough so as to hear those beats increase to that magical ~~6.92 bps. A unison means there are no beats and the pitch of the strings in that note are identical.

As a novice tuner, I've been reading as much as possible and practicing like crazy.

1. Pin setting technique (stability)
2. Tuning unisons
3. Tuning Octaves
4. Tuning 5ths slightly contracted
5. Tuning 4ths slightly expanded
6. Checking to ensure beat rates of thirds/sixths/tenths increase evenly as I move up the keyboard.

The next steps are, and have been, to begin listening carefully to beats.

Aside from Bill Bremmer's website (a most excellent resource I reference regularly - a huge help - the contiguous thirds is a very solid/great method for working inside the bearings range and learning to hear beats), this link below will give you more to think about in addition to Reblitz' book.

http://www.blackstonepiano.com/tutorial/temperament.htm

I spend a great deal of time on F3-A4 temperament section in order to build a solid foundation from which to begin tuning octaves - the whole time checking to ensure the beat rates (thirds/sixths/tenths) increase steadily from the lower register to the upper register.

Regardless, the best temperament in the world is useless without perfect unisons.

Here is a sample recording from yesterday of the tuning I performed two weeks ago on my piano...slowly but surely getting better.

Autumn Leaves

practice, practice, practice...

Glen

HI Inlanding,

Thanks for the info and the lovely piano piece. What piano are you playing on?

I have no problem tuning a unison beatless, that is surprisingly easy. My challenge right now is trying to hear the beats in a third and judge their speed. But like you said "practice / practice / practice. I am finding that hearing the beats in a 3rd difficult but I guess it's not helping as well that the piano I am practicing tuning on is one I am going to rebuild (5'8" Mason & Risch baby grand), as such it is in a bad state of playability and tone (pin block will need replacing / soundboard - probably, action needs total rebuild.

Nice thing is that I can experiment without worrying about wearing out pins or breaking strings. I also have my good piano (a 48" inch Pramberger) That I won't touch until I have gained a lot more experience and knowledge. I will definately read that article link. I already have Bill Bremmers site marked. Bur haven't gotten over there much yet.

I started my foray into tuning just this week with the purchase of a Korg OT-120 chromatic tuner. Didn't care for this though so I took it back and downloaded TuneLab Pro. This seems much more capable that the Korg.

Hi Emmery,

Thanks for the feedback. I have ditched the Korg OT-120 in favor of Tune Lab Pro. I like it already.

Tuning a unison or interval is straight forward (I even look at Tune Lab after doing it by ear to confirm-Spot on!! Where my ears seem to fail me is detuning this m3 interval and being able to discern a beat rate of 8 per second. I am thinking maybe the piano I am trying this on is not helping as it needs a lot of work to get it sounding good.

The piano I am using is a mason & Risch 5'8" baby which has a lot of false beat? or sympathetic vibrations (sound of metallic ringing as the note decays). Not sure what it is.


My other piano is an upright (Pramberger) which I had tuned last week by an RPT . The guy I bought the Pramberger from. I played the m3 on this tuned piano and again I cannot hear any beat rate at all. Sounds beatless. Is it possible he just tuned the entire piano beatless?

Update: I listened again to the Pramberger and the beat is quite noticeable. Not sure why I couldn't hear it before?

Anyway thanks for the feedback.

One other question about Tune Lab. When you are going to measure the inharmisicity SP? of the piano does the note have to be in tune or does this not matter for this reading? That is to say will there be the same amount of inharmisity whether the note is in tune or not?


Thanks

PS does your text window keep scrolling up as you write your responses? Mine does and it is very annoying. Probably easier to write this in word and then cut and paste.

For tunelab, if you are within 5-10 cents, the inharmonicity measurements should be valid. Measure twice and see if you come up with the same constant - repeatability gives some assurance of valid measurements.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

AUTPHF,

I am a novice tuner just like you. I also had a hard time hearing beats in intervals when I started. It helps when you "relax" your ears instead of focusing it on the fundamental tone.

Have you come across one of those posters that show some kind of nonsense patterns, and the the more you stare at it, the more you can't figure it out. But then there is a moment when you relax your eyes and allow them to cross by themselves, and then VIOLA! you can see the 3d image leap out from nowhere and you say in excitement: "It's the Statue of Liberty!"

It's the same with hearing beats between coincident partials. With practice, you'll soon be hearing not one, not two, but maybe even three sets of beats going on at the same time. Sometimes, when tuning the bass part, I like to go barefoot on the wooden floor, because I can FEEL the slow beat of the bass coming from the floor and the piano cabinet! LOL

This forum is deluged with posts from DIY's like me. Perhaps we need an Adult Beginner Tuners' Forum! LOL

But then how would we learn from the pros?

Hi Electrone,

Maybe it's not a bad idea. I'm sure the Pro's would read the posts in a "Beginner's Tuning" forum and offer advise. I think it's an idea that has some merit!!

TB

...we're all beginners...even if we've tuned 20,000 pianos...there is always something new, and HUGE, to learn.

FWIW

RPD

LOL.

Now thats an attitude I like. Appreciate it.

Thanks


Tony

It would be great idea. There could be a certain amount of "learning together" like in the adult beginner piano forum. I'm sure the pros would appreciate not having to sift through 10 million beginners' questions every single time they get online or reading posts about being so excited because you just cleaned up your first unison , which I did today . I'm sure there are many techs rolling their eyes right now. I know this isn't actually that huge of an accomplishment compared to what comes next, but as Stimpy would say, "I'm so happy I can hardly contain myself". It was the highlight of my day . Maybe I need to get out more often...