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#703006 - 11/02/08 09:21 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
i actually tried the test on my PF500, which does have string resonance, but it's not always working unless i hit the key a little harder (with slight sound) when sustain pedal is still down. actually, the sostenuto pedal on mine works as on a grand anyway.

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#703007 - 11/03/08 12:25 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Hey, all! I mainly play my S&S B, but I have a CLP230 as well, and it passes the sostenuto test. ;\)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#703008 - 11/03/08 01:29 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
So here's a stupid question:

If one were to get a Kawai CA51 that does not do this properly, but hook up the piano to Garritan or Ivory or Pianoteq, etc. would you then have it through the software or is it a signalling & reproduction issue?

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#703009 - 11/03/08 05:08 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
richyfourtytwo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 4
Casio px 120 also fails.

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#703010 - 11/03/08 08:05 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Bunneh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Berlin
theJourney,

at least the combination Roland HP-203 + Galaxy II Steinway does not work.
_________________________
aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

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#703011 - 11/03/08 10:10 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
 Quote:
Originally posted by theJourney:
So here's a stupid question:

If one were to get a Kawai CA51 that does not do this properly, but hook up the piano to Garritan or Ivory or Pianoteq, etc. would you then have it through the software or is it a signalling & reproduction issue? [/b]
If would be a function of the software.

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#703012 - 11/04/08 12:10 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
My Casio PX 320 failed the test

that's decided it, its got to go \:\)


Lee
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#703013 - 11/06/08 12:05 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by CTPianotech:
When I get back to the shop on Monday, I'll check out the pRP 800 we have. I wonder if it makes a difference if one has the optional 3-pedals, vs the standard footswitch sustain pedal that they come standard with.

I have noticed the actions on the pRP 700 and 800's feel much better than the 'console' RP700. The action on the console RP800 though is good though. [/b]
Just got off the phone with Rich from Shawn's Piano, and the pRP800 failed this test.
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#703014 - 11/15/08 09:31 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
GTBannah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 25
Loc: GuyBarTola
O.K., but after all of this, how practical is this in a real solo performance situation? Do we have the time to do the "second depression" thing in a real situation?
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#703015 - 11/16/08 01:28 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by GTBannah:
O.K., but after all of this, how practical is this in a real solo performance situation? Do we have the time to do the "second depression" thing in a real situation? [/b]
I use it in Rachmaninoff's Prelude in B minor, in Grieg's Concerto in A minor depending on what mood I'm in, and I use it in some of my own music. The main reason I developed it was because my DP doesn't support sostenuto. But you're right, so far I've only used it in slower passages.

Come to think of it though, this technique could be used (and perhaps with greater ease than sostenuto) in a situation where you play a fast run and then want to sustain only certain notes from that run in the next phrase.
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#703016 - 11/16/08 01:33 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
maxipol Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Argentina
 Quote:
Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think. [Roll Eyes] )
 Quote:
I own a Yamaha YPD-140 (without string resonance), which is a very new model released in 2008, and unfortunately didnĀ“t pass the test.

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#703017 - 11/18/08 06:08 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Geof175 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Be
Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX.

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#703018 - 11/18/08 09:07 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by Geof175:
Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX. [/b]
Yeah, doesn't work on Yamaha's flagship portable CP300 either. But at least it supports a full 3 pedals. The CP33 only has a single aux pedal input. It amazes me how at this late stage of the digital piano game they still cheap out on some of the most basic features.
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#1301559 - 11/08/09 11:34 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: TimR]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
It seems to me like pianoteq doesn't do this right either :(, I use this technique in the Pathetique sonata first mov. after Andras Schiff told about it in his lecture, its a usefull technique.


Edited by Victor25 (11/08/09 11:38 AM)
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1301597 - 11/08/09 12:50 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Victor25]
AlphaTerminus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
I just tried this using Pianoteq 3.5 and both my CP-33 and my PF-500 it it did work.
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6

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#1301605 - 11/08/09 01:13 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: AlphaTerminus]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
It is my very strong suspicion that Pianoteq will only produce what the keyboard will transmit in terms of signal.

In other words, if your keyboard doesn't "pass the test" outlined by jscomposer, and thus can't transmit the signal to Pianoteq, then Pianoteq can't produce the effect.

It relies on what is transmitted by the keyboard.

My Roland KR7 (superseded by the KR107), fails the test; but on the other hand it transmits continuous damper control values from zero to 127 - not many keyboards can do this. And I find this feature quite useful, particularly at the end of a song where one would slowly drop the dampers (on an acoustic).

Glenn

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#1301615 - 11/08/09 01:35 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5368
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.
I'm trying to understand where exactly is the sostenuto effect with this. You hold ALL the damper with the pedal, then you sustain the dampers of the notes you hold down, and release the sustain. On a real piano this seems... bizzare since you still have to keep your hand on the notes, in order to sustain them. The idea of the sostenuto is to hold the selected notes, but without having your hands on them... This is NOT the case.

In your example you are just hitting the notes, with pedal, then take the pedal off practially (either if you lift and put the down the hands again).

Don't have my PX110 at home anymore, so can't do any tests, but my hunch is that it has to do with some MIDI signal... :-/ But will have to run some tests in my studio for further research purposes...
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#1301622 - 11/08/09 01:54 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Nikolas]
BazC Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 711
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
Korg SP200 fails the test.

Edit:It passes when used with Pianoteq though!


Edited by BazC (11/08/09 02:19 PM)
_________________________

Korg SP200, Pianoteq

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#1301642 - 11/08/09 02:31 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: BazC]
AlphaTerminus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
Yeah BazC, same with my PF500 and CP33. Pianoteq3.5 just queries whether the keys are pushed down and if they are behaves appropriately. I imagine this would work with any midi controller and Pianoteq 3.5.
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6

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#1301657 - 11/08/09 03:09 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: TimR]
SdJ Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/19/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Caribbean
Gentlemen,
My venerable 12 years old Oberheim Minigrand piano moduled passed this test easyly. Sad it is no longer produced, if it dies, I will mourn for a year.

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#1301659 - 11/08/09 03:15 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: BazC]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Originally Posted By: BazC
Korg SP200 fails the test.

Edit:It passes when used with Pianoteq though!


Baz:

I can't test my DP with Pianoteq because my soundcard died yesterday. Will check if and when it's fixed (needs some new capacitors).

Glenn

PS - how are you liking 3.5?

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#1301671 - 11/08/09 03:40 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Glenn NK]
BazC Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 711
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
PS - how are you liking 3.5?


Loving it! Richer, more defined, fantastic! smile Sorry about the card frown
_________________________

Korg SP200, Pianoteq

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#1301916 - 11/09/09 03:33 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: BazC]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
If your midi sends out:

note on note off
velocity
damper + how much (if you have a damper pedal with half-pedaling)

then the software should take care of the rest, right?
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1305255 - 11/14/09 03:27 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Victor25]
Huygens Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 217
Loc: Sweden
Horray, my cheap P-85 Yamaha plastic imitation passes the test. smile


Edited by Huygens (11/14/09 03:28 AM)
_________________________
P-85 cheap plastic imitation; not because of sound, but weight.

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#1305256 - 11/14/09 03:45 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Huygens]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
P60 passes. Still can't stand the thing though.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1305421 - 11/14/09 01:41 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: keyboardklutz]
Maelstrom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Georgia, USA
kawai EP3 failed
_________________________
pianos owned:
acoustic-- Samick JS-143F (43" upright)
digital-- Kawai EP3 (stage piano)

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#1307378 - 11/17/09 06:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Maelstrom]
PlatonicSolid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 53
Loc: CT-USA
Kurzweil 2600xs failed, but I have a hard time using the word "failed" as I would opt for sympathetic resonance over a rather awkward method of achieving sostenuto for which I have a pedal. Also, I doesn't matter how lightly I press the keys, the notes are always sounded - granted at a greatly reduced volume.
_________________________
Kurzweil K2600xs - yeah, it's purple :p , Alesis M1 Active MkII Monitors, Roland RD-300s Restoration Project completed.

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#1307942 - 11/18/09 05:40 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
PlatonicSolid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 53
Loc: CT-USA
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.

"Wrong" is subjective. "Different" would be accurate.

Originally Posted By: jscomposer
On a real piano...

"real piano" is subjective. "Acoustic piano" would be accurate.

A digital piano is no less "real" than an acoustic. If you want all the features of an acoustic piano, then buy an acoustic piano. I can list a thousand features and benefits of digital pianos that no acoustic could ever hope to achieve (or should I say they would "fail the test"), but what's the point? They are very different instruments.

If your stated method of achieving the sostenuto effect is that important to you, I dare say you have failed to purchase the right instrument.

People would be much better served by exploiting the attributes of the instruments at hand.

Bottom line, Acoustic or Digital, if it can get you "in-the-zone", then it's a worthy instrument.
_________________________
Kurzweil K2600xs - yeah, it's purple :p , Alesis M1 Active MkII Monitors, Roland RD-300s Restoration Project completed.

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#1309228 - 11/20/09 01:32 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: PlatonicSolid]
UpNorth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 70
If I understand the test, then my Yamaha P155 passed it nicely.

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#1982630 - 11/04/12 01:50 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
WippenJackSpring Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/12
Posts: 27
Loc: Idaho, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
I've spoken to techs at Kawai and Yamaha about this, and while they're equally surprised, they don't seem to care much.

On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.

Now, you might ask, "What's the point? Just use the sostenuto pedal!" Well, mine doesn't have one, and I don't feel like spending money on a keyboard that has all sorts of bells and whistles I don't need, and that still fails on this feature. Plus, this technique is more flexible than using the sostenuto pedal. (Though I do wish my P80 had a sostenuto function, because I could use that as well! frown )

Try it on yours and let me know what happens! wink



Thanks jscomposer, if you are still out there, for bringing up this point.

I realize this is a dated thread, but, IMO, this is still a relevant concern/topic.

My Kawai MP10, with software version "V1.04", is not capable of doing this - and yes, I am disappointed.

On 10/24/12, Kawai James posted a heads-up notice for all Kawai MP10 owners for the minor update v1.05 - and thank you James for doing that!

I have not updated my MP10 yet because I need to get a USB memory device. However, just based on the description of the v1.05 minor update that James gave, it (v1.05) will not remedy this problem.

The reason I am "disappointed", and the reason I call this a "problem", is that this may be what is causing a problem I have notice that occurs occasionally on my Kawai MP10. And that is, occasionally some combination of actuating the sustain pedal and keying, the "sound" disappears completely. Another way of stating it is that there is just no sound - zip. And of course on an acoustic piano, at least from my experiences, this does not happen.

Another thing that I have now noticed about the functionality of the sustatin pedal software/algorithm on my Kawai MP10, is as follows. Without depressing the sustain pedal, when I softly press down and hold a lower key (maybe a bass C) (without activating its sampled sounds), and then "play" another key (maybe a C one octave higher) it activates a sample to simulate a slight resonance for the lower C key, which I am still holding down. Now, the infidelity occurs when I do the same thing, except I first hold the sustain pedal down before I do the above. In this scenario the cross string resonance does not occur. Which again is not how an acoustic piano would work.

Now I do fully realize that the Kawai MP10 is not an acoustic Kawai Grand. Yet they (Kawai) have done such a great job, IMO, of modeling so many aspects (tactile, auditory, timbre, playability) of the acoustic and digitals keyboards it represents (key action, sampling, tactile feel of the keys, damper resonace, let off action, several preset temperments, & stretch tuning - to name only a few). So I'm at a loss to understand why they either overlooked both of these needed "sustain" features, or just chose not to include them.

Now this problem with the sustain algorithm may, or may not be the cause of the problem I have experienced with my MP10 (as described above). However, given the many features that Kawai has sucessfully modeled in the MP10, I would be quite surprised if both of these "sustain algorithm blackholes" could not be remedied with a software patch.

Especially since apparently other DP manufactures can at least sucessfully implement the first one, and have chosen to include this feature in their modeling of acoustics which use the sustain feature.

Sincerely,
WJS


Edited by WippenJackSpring (11/04/12 09:19 PM)

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