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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
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#703008 - 11/03/08 01:29 AM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3574
Loc: Amsterdam
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So here's a stupid question:
If one were to get a Kawai CA51 that does not do this properly, but hook up the piano to Garritan or Ivory or Pianoteq, etc. would you then have it through the software or is it a signalling & reproduction issue?
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#703009 - 11/03/08 05:08 AM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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Junior Member
Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 4
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#703011 - 11/03/08 10:10 AM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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Originally posted by theJourney:  So here's a stupid question: If one were to get a Kawai CA51 that does not do this properly, but hook up the piano to Garritan or Ivory or Pianoteq, etc. would you then have it through the software or is it a signalling & reproduction issue? [/b] If would be a function of the software.
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#703012 - 11/04/08 12:10 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2149
Loc: Blackpool, UK
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My Casio PX 320 failed the test that's decided it, its got to go  Lee
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#703013 - 11/06/08 12:05 AM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 535
Loc: The Boogie Down
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Originally posted by CTPianotech: When I get back to the shop on Monday, I'll check out the pRP 800 we have. I wonder if it makes a difference if one has the optional 3-pedals, vs the standard footswitch sustain pedal that they come standard with. I have noticed the actions on the pRP 700 and 800's feel much better than the 'console' RP700. The action on the console RP800 though is good though. [/b] Just got off the phone with Rich from Shawn's Piano, and the pRP800 failed this test.
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#703014 - 11/15/08 09:31 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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Full Member
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 24
Loc: GuyBarTola
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O.K., but after all of this, how practical is this in a real solo performance situation? Do we have the time to do the "second depression" thing in a real situation?
_________________________
Derrkins
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#703015 - 11/16/08 01:28 AM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 535
Loc: The Boogie Down
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Originally posted by GTBannah: O.K., but after all of this, how practical is this in a real solo performance situation? Do we have the time to do the "second depression" thing in a real situation? [/b] I use it in Rachmaninoff's Prelude in B minor, in Grieg's Concerto in A minor depending on what mood I'm in, and I use it in some of my own music. The main reason I developed it was because my DP doesn't support sostenuto. But you're right, so far I've only used it in slower passages. Come to think of it though, this technique could be used (and perhaps with greater ease than sostenuto) in a situation where you play a fast run and then want to sustain only certain notes from that run in the next phrase.
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#703016 - 11/16/08 01:33 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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Junior Member
Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Argentina
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Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think. [Roll Eyes] ) I own a Yamaha YPD-140 (without string resonance), which is a very new model released in 2008, and unfortunately didn´t pass the test.
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#703017 - 11/18/08 06:08 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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Full Member
Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Be
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Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX.
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#703018 - 11/18/08 09:07 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 535
Loc: The Boogie Down
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Originally posted by Geof175: Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX. [/b] Yeah, doesn't work on Yamaha's flagship portable CP300 either. But at least it supports a full 3 pedals. The CP33 only has a single aux pedal input. It amazes me how at this late stage of the digital piano game they still cheap out on some of the most basic features.
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#1301559 - 11/08/09 11:34 AM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: TimR]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
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It seems to me like pianoteq doesn't do this right either :(, I use this technique in the Pathetique sonata first mov. after Andras Schiff told about it in his lecture, its a usefull technique.
Edited by Victor25 (11/08/09 11:38 AM)
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)
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#1301597 - 11/08/09 12:50 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: Victor25]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
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I just tried this using Pianoteq 3.5 and both my CP-33 and my PF-500 it it did work.
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6
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#1301605 - 11/08/09 01:13 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: AlphaTerminus]
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Full Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
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It is my very strong suspicion that Pianoteq will only produce what the keyboard will transmit in terms of signal.
In other words, if your keyboard doesn't "pass the test" outlined by jscomposer, and thus can't transmit the signal to Pianoteq, then Pianoteq can't produce the effect.
It relies on what is transmitted by the keyboard.
My Roland KR7 (superseded by the KR107), fails the test; but on the other hand it transmits continuous damper control values from zero to 127 - not many keyboards can do this. And I find this feature quite useful, particularly at the end of a song where one would slowly drop the dampers (on an acoustic).
Glenn
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#1301615 - 11/08/09 01:35 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: jscomposer]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2830
Loc: Europe
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On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:
Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.
On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.
I'm trying to understand where exactly is the sostenuto effect with this. You hold ALL the damper with the pedal, then you sustain the dampers of the notes you hold down, and release the sustain. On a real piano this seems... bizzare since you still have to keep your hand on the notes, in order to sustain them. The idea of the sostenuto is to hold the selected notes, but without having your hands on them... This is NOT the case. In your example you are just hitting the notes, with pedal, then take the pedal off practially (either if you lift and put the down the hands again). Don't have my PX110 at home anymore, so can't do any tests, but my hunch is that it has to do with some MIDI signal... :-/ But will have to run some tests in my studio for further research purposes...
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#1301622 - 11/08/09 01:54 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: Nikolas]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 709
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
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Korg SP200 fails the test.
Edit:It passes when used with Pianoteq though!
Edited by BazC (11/08/09 02:19 PM)
_________________________
 Korg SP200, Pianoteq
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#1301642 - 11/08/09 02:31 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: BazC]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
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Yeah BazC, same with my PF500 and CP33. Pianoteq3.5 just queries whether the keys are pushed down and if they are behaves appropriately. I imagine this would work with any midi controller and Pianoteq 3.5.
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6
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#1301657 - 11/08/09 03:09 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: TimR]
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Junior Member
Registered: 08/19/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Caribbean
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Gentlemen,
My venerable 12 years old Oberheim Minigrand piano moduled passed this test easyly. Sad it is no longer produced, if it dies, I will mourn for a year.
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#1301659 - 11/08/09 03:15 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: BazC]
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Full Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
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Korg SP200 fails the test.
Edit:It passes when used with Pianoteq though! Baz: I can't test my DP with Pianoteq because my soundcard died yesterday. Will check if and when it's fixed (needs some new capacitors). Glenn PS - how are you liking 3.5?
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#1301671 - 11/08/09 03:40 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: Glenn NK]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 709
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
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PS - how are you liking 3.5? Loving it! Richer, more defined, fantastic! Sorry about the card 
_________________________
Korg SP200, Pianoteq
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#1301916 - 11/09/09 03:33 AM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: BazC]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
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If your midi sends out:
note on note off
velocity
damper + how much (if you have a damper pedal with half-pedaling)
then the software should take care of the rest, right?
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)
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#1305255 - 11/14/09 03:27 AM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: Victor25]
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Full Member
Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 217
Loc: Sweden
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Horray, my cheap P-85 Yamaha plastic imitation passes the test.
Edited by Huygens (11/14/09 03:28 AM)
_________________________
P-85 cheap plastic imitation; not because of sound, but weight.
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#1305421 - 11/14/09 01:41 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: keyboardklutz]
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Junior Member
Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Georgia, USA
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kawai EP3 failed
_________________________
pianos owned:
acoustic-- Samick JS-143F (43" upright)
digital-- Kawai EP3 (stage piano)
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#1307378 - 11/17/09 06:38 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: Maelstrom]
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Full Member
Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 53
Loc: CT-USA
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Kurzweil 2600xs failed, but I have a hard time using the word "failed" as I would opt for sympathetic resonance over a rather awkward method of achieving sostenuto for which I have a pedal. Also, I doesn't matter how lightly I press the keys, the notes are always sounded - granted at a greatly reduced volume.
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#1307942 - 11/18/09 05:40 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: jscomposer]
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Full Member
Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 53
Loc: CT-USA
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Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. "Wrong" is subjective. "Different" would be accurate. "real piano" is subjective. "Acoustic piano" would be accurate. A digital piano is no less "real" than an acoustic. If you want all the features of an acoustic piano, then buy an acoustic piano. I can list a thousand features and benefits of digital pianos that no acoustic could ever hope to achieve (or should I say they would "fail the test"), but what's the point? They are very different instruments. If your stated method of achieving the sostenuto effect is that important to you, I dare say you have failed to purchase the right instrument. People would be much better served by exploiting the attributes of the instruments at hand. Bottom line, Acoustic or Digital, if it can get you "in-the-zone", then it's a worthy instrument.
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#1309228 - 11/20/09 01:32 PM
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
[Re: PlatonicSolid]
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Full Member
Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 62
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If I understand the test, then my Yamaha P155 passed it nicely.
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