Hi. I live in Iowa, own a Yamaha U1, and am considering bumping up to a grand, primarily because one of my children shows a fair amount of talent and dedication.

My budget could stretch up toward about 35K. One possibility is a five year old Steinway M that has been used as a loaner piano, which is listed by a reputable local dealer at 39K. Were I to pursue this piano (which needs voicing and has minor cosmetic wear but seems to be in OK shape otherwise) I would certainly have an independent piano tech and a trained pianist check it over carefully for wear/damage and general potential. Beyond that, I have no concrete leads and am curious to hear your thoughts about options you might pursue in my situation. I should add that I have a fairly risk-averse personality! Thanks in advance!

Seems fairly reasonable, SNC. I am looking at a five year old L for $44K, with tax and shipping included. I personally feel like the M is a bit too small and would not buy a Steinway smaller than an L or O, so if you could stretch your money a bit more, it might be worth it.

35K could buy you a great piano. The overwhelming consensus from this forum, is to Play as many pianos as you can, be patient, and find the one you/your children really love.

You set your budget, great, but now you need to decide on furniture/finish, size, etc... then narrow down from there.

you state risk-averse, so you may want to consider new v. used (ie Warranty etc)

Good luck...

Estonia 190, Mason AA, Shigeru Kawai would all be significantly larger than a Steinway M and should at least be tried IMO. I would personally choose all of them over an M, but it's your preference that counts. The best NYC rebuilders don't even stock many M's and virtually no S's.

I would also play new M's to see what effect "loaning' the piano has had. It could have gotten intensive use or much less.

Agree with MPP regarding buying new. 35K can buy you new 6 ft+ tier 2 piano from a few highly reputable brands. I would check them out along with used Steinways.

Disclaimer:
We are dealers for Estonia grands!

Estonia grands have recently been put into same tier group as New York Steinway - within your price range, you could be worth to check out some of their new 6'3 models.

Your price range allows for a number of other comparisons, but once in in a particular class of quality, you may as well check all equivalent options avaialable to you.

For recognizing some other brands within the highly respectable group 2 of "High Quality Performance Pianos", I am attaching this link of Larry Fine's most recent Piano Buyer.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/e8ffb87c#/e8ffb87c/44

Good luck in your search!

Norbert

For $35K you can surely find a good used or rebuilt model B Steinway. For under $20K you can find a great used Baldwin SF or SD. There is blood in the streets. Use it to your advantage. Prices will never be lower....well... if unemployment hits 15% all bets are off!

Thanks for these suggestions thus far. I have the Fine book and the most recent supplement and have been reading around in them. I see where he says that the Steinway M is limited compared to the next-size model in some tonal areas. This local dealer mostly sells Steinway (and Boston/Essex) and Yamaha. So if I buy new, I'd have to go out of town to find someone who sells Estonia, Mason AA (I don't know this one--will have to check into it!), or Kawai (I thought the Shigeru were really expensive?). I'll try to figure out where that would be. Chicago is probably my closest option. The Yamaha C2 is another one we looked at (new); from what I gather, it would be a safe/reliable but not particularly inspired choice? It would be several thousand cheaper than the used M. Although my significant other would prefer a wood-grain finish over black, I'm not as concerned with appearance as touch/sound. And, as for size, I guess that's a big issue: is there a clear "cut-off" below which it is just best not to go if I don't want to have to upgrade again in four years (presuming that my daughter continues her development)? 5'8"? 5'10"? For a child who is studying classical music, is a bigger mass produced (but good quality like Yamaha or Kawai) piano generally going to be preferable to a smaller high-end brand? And for us parents who have some concerns about long-term investment value, what are the pros and cons of going with a well-known name like Steinway versus other brands like Estonia that are getting good reports but don't have the same widespread name recognition among non-professionals? Thanks again for your advice! It's hard to include all relevant info w/o making each posting overly long . . . .

If you are coming to Chicago you should go to at least these 4 places: Pickle Pianos, Cordogans, Kurt Saphir, and PianoForte. All have an excellent selection of used and new in that price range. Kurt Saphir has the Mason Hamlins. Pickle and Cordogan's are both in Western suburbs so are about a 30 minute drive west of downtown. Kurt Saphir is in Wilmette (northern suburb). PianoForte is downtown.
Hope this helps

One other thing: someone else told me that now is a great time to buy a Steinway. I didn't know if she really specifically meant Steinway, or whether she meant any good piano, or whether she meant any good piano manufactured in a country that's in an economic recession . . . . I also didn't know if she meant just new as opposed to used pianos. On the used market, for a rebuilt B, does it matter all that much when the piano was originally manufactured, or is the only real issue whether the wood/case seems to be in good condition? For example, I've seen ads for rebuilt Steinway Bs from the early 1900s but am worried about problems with the case cropping up that would be hard to detect . . . . I don't really trust my judgment, in the end, which is why I tend to gravitate toward new models or well-known brands. Maybe my goal is writing is to ask you to help me work up the courage to explore less-obvious options!

Just to give you my experience, I chose a used Steinway L over a new Petrof and Estonia (although I am still debating getting the L or a B). I really believe Steinway is that much better. But you need to try the pianos for yourself before you can make such a decision.

In a vintage remanufactured Steinway B,near EVERYTHING is replaced or should be with the exception of the case and the cast iron harp. It should be fairly obvious as for it's shortcomings. If you still feel insecure about the vintage era piano get a much newer restored one.ex.1950s-1990s. Or just get a newer preowned one.
John Pels and I seem to see eye to eye.

SNC, now is a great time to buy any piano. The state of our economy is more important than the country of manufacture, because pianos will be bought here.

Six feet is the approximate cutoff length, because that's where the bass should become richer, but there are no absolutes. Kawai's 5'10" RX-2 is a popular model.

Glad to learn that you're willing to consider other brands. So often people are in a rush to buy, when they would do better for themselves by accepting that an auditioning phase, which could be lengthy, should precede the buying phase.

carpediem has posted good leads for dealerships which should be within reasonable traveling distance for someone who's not in a rush to buy.

Kurt Safir carries the Charles Walter grands - a 190 and the newer 175. Both are high quality instruments, designed by Delwin Fandrich ("Del" on Piano World). Del very much prefers pianos which can be played softly as well as loudly. Both grands will have a particularly clear bass, which causes them to sound bigger than their size. (The reps can show you these pianos' longer backscales.) IMO raw power is overrated as a characteristic of pianos which will be played at home. The prices are similar and the street prices for both will be well under your preferred limit. The Walter grands are a little narrower than others, which gives them a particularly graceful appearance. They're also finished in lacquer. The subtle sheen of that finish is, IMO, preferable to polyester.

We love piano search stories. Please keep us updated.

Patience and persistence.

At least in NYC, rebuilt B's by the best rebuilders were in the high 50K's a year ago. I don't know what they sold for in other places/rebuilders then, but I can't imagine they've come down anywhere near 35K today in NYC.

I just checked the web prices for some B's from a dealer that typically has inexpensive prices (but doesn't get rave quality reviews)and the B's were in the 45K range.

SNC,

I don't believe I saw you mention a size limit. Personally, I'm limited to about 5'10" or so (178 mm), so I've been looking at things like the Yamaha C2 and Kawai RX-2. For 35K I suspect you can get into the Yamaha C5 range, and certainly the Kawai RX-3, perhaps RX-5. They are all too big for my house.

I also have the same problem you have in Iowa. I live on the Canadian prairies, and even though it's an urban area of 1.2 million, our selection of pianos is pathetic. We have Kawai, Petrof, M&H, Steinway and friends, and Yamaha and friends. I sure wish we could get some more exotic things like Sauter, Bechstein, Estonia, etc.

Hi SNC,

If you're anywhere near Ames, IA. You're welcome to stop by our house and play our M&H A.

If you're in Central Iowa, the nearest M&H dealer is in Minneapolis, MN which is a great city for piano shopping. You can find almost any brand within your budget there without going all the way to Chicago

Kuypers carries Kawai, Shigeru & Estonia. They're now in Pella, IA.

Search for some of my older posts and you should find more detailed info on dealers in MN and the brands that they carry.

Let me know if you have more questions. I'll be glad to help.

Regards,

Robert

SNC,

You mentioned being worried about having to upgrade in a few years. I can tell you from experience that your daughter will not outgrow a Steinway M. It responds well to the most demanding reportoire. If you decide you prefer the tone of a larger piano, then that is a reason to look larger. The M is a lot of piano, and would not hold your daughter back regardless of the level she reaches.

Shopping in your price range is a lot of fun. Take your time, you will only have to do it once.

Thanks, everyone! I've taken down notes on specific models you mentioned and will begin with Fine to get more information. I think we probably ruled out the M today. A tech had serviced it since our last visit, but the sound felt too muted/muffled. I might still seek a second opinion from my daughter's teacher, but for now I'm going to drop that one down on the list and focus on an upcoming regional sales event by this dealer and also perhaps a trip to Pella or Chicago where I can test out other models. (Minneapolis sounds tempting but is quite a bit farther away.) Although I still like the idea of trying to keep the purchase local, I want to get experience with some of these other brands you mention. Btw, my living/dining room is roughly an L-shaped configuration. The living room is about 16 by 25 and the attached dining area is about 10 and a half by 15 feet. The dining area has a door into the kitchen and the living room has a wide opening into the front entrance hall and stairs going up. The ceiling in the living room area is vaulted. The area is carpeted (for the time being). So I guess that means my main size limitation is my pocketbook and our desire not to overwhelm the space (or our ears!). Again, thanks so much for taking time to offer suggestions.

Re the size of the room, modern pianos do not lack for power. IMO grands should be played on full stick, if possible, because that's when their tones really bloom. If you should find yourself attracted to a smaller grand, there shouldn't be any problem with it suffusing the available space.

SNC, I want to second what Fogvillelad has said about Walter pianos. A 190 I played this summer had such a wonderful blend of color in the tenor/treble over a tight bass. Is a new piano in your price-range that you should audition.

Also Hendricks (but I think they're overpriced), Grand Piano Haus, ANR piano. We're pretty spoiled in Chicago.

I too really liked the Walter Grands. I believe, though, that the 175 was designed by Del, but not the 190, at least this was the case for the models I tried, and they did have different tonal characteristics. I remember something about a floating soundboard in the 175? Both nice instruments, but different from each other. And I also believe they come in poly if you so desire, too (although I'd prefer the satin.) Make sure you try both.

newguy, I think that it's the other way 'round and that Del designed and constructed the prototype of the 190, but submitted plans for the 175.

The 175 has a lower tension scale than does the 190 and its soundboard is thinner than normal for its size. Those two design aspects should produce a difference in tone. I think that there's also a difference in the hammer felts, but am not certain what it is.

The 175's 'board is partially floated. Del posted that he'd suggested changing the 190 to include that feature, but was not certain what the factory decided to do.

This just in re floating soundboards quoting Del:

I used it on my own upright piano back in the early 1990s and was very pleased with the sound of the bass—even the very low bass. When I designed the Walter 175 I included this feature and it is part of what gives that piano is relatively clean and clear low bass. I also did a retro-design to include the feature on the Walter 190 though I don't know if they are doing this in production.

ddf

So, you were right about the suggested change for the 190, and we were both right about him designing the 175 (I think that's what you meant?)

Does anyone know if the current 190 uses the floating board now?

I was trying to say that, tho Del designed both grands, his involvement with the 190 was greater, because he also built the first one; whereas with the 175 he submitted the design plans and the factory took it from there.

Fog, Your PM box is full.

Steve, just made room, please try again.

The 190 does not utilize a floating board.
The 175 does.
Both have outstanding tone, some prefer the 175 over the 190 but I feel that is mainly a voicing issue due to the different hammers used. Not to take away from great designs.

The 175 competes nicely with the 190 all areas except perhaps the lowest bass as the 190 does have a bit more power in that area. Both have exceptional actions and build quality and the finishes are outstanding.

It has been fun comparing them with my Bluthners they are so different mainly in tone as they both use Renner actions with proper specs.

Rod, are the 175's fitted with Ronsen Wurzens?

It depends,
They can be ordered with Abel, Ronsen Wurzen or Ronsen Bacon.
The Abel seems to be similar to the natural felt I use in my restorations.