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#1293782 - 10/26/09 04:37 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My point was that E is a major (wrong word), important part of the tune. So do we change the tune to start on an Eb? Or stick with the E but use minor harmonies?
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#1293789 - 10/26/09 05:00 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]
Studio Joe Offline
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Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My point was that E is a major (wrong word), important part of the tune. So do we change the tune to start on an Eb? Or stick with the E but use minor harmonies?


TLT, listen to the last movement of my "Variations". It is in Cm and the first melody note (of this movement) is Eb.

Variations
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#1293924 - 10/26/09 10:42 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My point was that E is a major (wrong word), important part of the tune. So do we change the tune to start on an Eb? Or stick with the E but use minor harmonies?


You can't deviate from the melody but who says that it has to be Cm (with an Eb)? The minor third can occur anywhere else in the chord.

For example, in Am, the E is ok. The minor comes from C. You have to think out of the box with this stuff. So the E is the 5th of the chord in this case. It could also be the 7th of the chord or the root. Thus you forget its original placement.

But the one thing you don't do is suddenly turn the E into an Eb. That's not reharmonization now since you've changed the underlying tune. Sometimes you can do that and make the song still recognizable but it's the easy way out to problem solving.

So theoretically (and simplistically) speaking, you can try out Am7, Dm7 and Em7 on those three melody notes of C,D, and E and the E will will not be out of place. I think it is simplistic to just use these chords though as there is no tension and release. Each of these chords are equally weighted.




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#1293932 - 10/26/09 10:49 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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In my 1st post, I used Eb on the final chord when the melody was C. So I was in major on the E melody note and then switched to minor when I got to C. That's another way of introducing the Eb. It's a "fake Cadence".

But it's not as dark as staying in minor the whole time though.
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#1301765 - 11/08/09 07:52 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: kevinb]
GPA Offline
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Jazzwee- Please go to my url where my question is posed:

http://www.box.net/shared/e012r2jc1j

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#1301771 - 11/08/09 08:14 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: GPA]
jazzwee Offline
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I saw that grandpa GPA and answered in the other thread (incorrectly at that).

But is there more context to this progression? F6 is itself a dominant so one would imagine it came from someplace else and the the F6 is an attempt to modulate to G (using a jump from one dominant to another dominant).

Usually I see tunes starting with a dominant like F6(9) in Blues. It just seems like this progression is in the middle of the tune.
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#1301782 - 11/08/09 08:37 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
GPA Offline
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Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 54
Jazzwe

I didn't think I could copy direct from the book, or I would have.Yes, it dows look like a snippet of a tune in the key of F. I just don't understand what's written below the staff, that seems to allude to the key of C.

Do I dare copy the whole page without permission? If I could, the whole thing might be clearer to you.

http://www.box.net/shared/e012r2jc1j

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#1301804 - 11/08/09 09:35 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
mom3gram Offline
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I'm glad to see this thread come back to page 1 again. I've printed out a bunch of stuff to work on. Still don't have any way to post recordings, but I'm having fun playing around with this as a break from my lesson book pieces.

I'm going to try what I've learned with Jingle Bells too.

Maybe you can start a thread with Jingle Bells or other Christmas variations also.
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#1301812 - 11/08/09 09:47 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: mom3gram]
jazzwee Offline
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GPA, I understand your copyright concerns. If you wish, you can show it to me privately and then we can discuss it publicly. If something is pertinent for all, we can kind of recreate the required information.

Reharmonization often requires context. But for a simple starter I think this thread has plenty of information and more to come.

Mom3Gram, I haven't given up on this thread yet. But I was a bit concerned that I load up with TOO MUCH information.

And now that the holidays are upon us shortly, hopefully Reharmonized holiday tunes will get posted too.
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#1301813 - 11/08/09 09:57 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
mom3gram Offline
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Oh yeah! Way too much information for me already, but I've bookmarked and I will grow into it.
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#1301819 - 11/08/09 10:07 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: mom3gram]
jazzwee Offline
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Well we can always revert to non-serious reharms first smile
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#1302069 - 11/09/09 11:53 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
mom3gram Offline
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Jazzwee, somewhere at the beginning of this thread you asked if my Alfred book had covered 7th chords yet. Well, my Book 2 just came today, and it introduces 7th chords around page 90.....and I'm not done with Book 1 yet. Sigh!

I'm going to peek ahead and play with them a bit.
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#1302102 - 11/09/09 12:45 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: mom3gram]
jazzwee Offline
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It's not that hard Mom3Gram smile Once you know your regular chords, 7th chords are a piece of cake. It does make you rethink fingering though.
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#1560232 - 11/18/10 02:20 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Someone just brought this thread up to my attention again. Some of the stuff here is really great for creating jazzy sounding Christmas songs.
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#1560542 - 11/19/10 01:57 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
rosa2009 Offline
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Jazzwee, How are you doing? Long time no see... actually I've been so busy that I have not had time to come into piano world too often.

I am glad you resurrected this thread. Didn't even know it existed before. It sure is great to create some jazzy sounding Christmas songs.

I've been working on Joy to the World Reharmonization.

You know how in Joy to the World, we can just play the following chords for the first line:

C G7 C G7 C

And instead of playing the above progression, I can do something like this for the introduction to lead into the song (using the same 1st line melody tones):

F Bdim7 Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7 C G7 ...then start the song with C then G7 C G7 .....


I know we can do the above because of the Circle movement of 2 5 1, but what is the explanation of being able to start with the F Chord instead of the C chord in songs that are in Key of C? Other than the fact that a C melody tone works for the F Chord and we can move via the circle, are there other more specific explanations to this as to why it works?

Rosa grin


Edited by rosa2009 (11/19/10 02:20 AM)

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#1560552 - 11/19/10 02:27 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Hey Rosa! Did you come up with this? I guess you have some jazzer blood in you then!

You've hit on some very common reharmonizations here surprisingly.

I haven't tried on the piano but for example Bdim7 = Bb7b9. So if you think of the F as a ii chord (i.e. a Min7) then it leads into the Bb7b9. (ii-V)

Now here's the other interesting thing. Bb7b9 is something called a diminished cycle substitution to G7b9 (meaning they are interchangeable). And G7 is frequently altered to G7b9.

Also instead of Em7 Am7 Dm7, that could actually have suggested Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C which is 3 6 2 5 1 which is just extending the harmony of G7 using the circle of fifths.

The Am7 plays with the harmony a little bit instead of the A7. Vaguer but done a lot in modern jazz.

So there are pieces of this that take from reharmonizations that are typical. However your combinations here sound like fun.

I know what I'm saying here is complex but if you can retain the melody note, the different reharmonizations work and it's fun to just listen and see what you create. No one writes rules for this.

You should post what this reharm sounds like.

Back in the beginning here (I can't believe it's last year), you will see me refer to something called 1 5 7 alternating with 1# 5 7 that I came up with. Try it out! It's an easy way to reharmonize and the voicing is good too.
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#1560555 - 11/19/10 02:31 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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BTW - Rosa, I don't know if you know this, but you could play the Em7 Am7 Dm7 as Esus4, Asus4, Dsus4.

This could be played with something called quartal harmony (a stack of fourths). This is the basis of pentatonic playing in Jazz.

It's the basic harmony in the tune Maiden Voyage by Herbie Hancock.
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#1560567 - 11/19/10 04:13 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
rosa2009 Offline
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Registered: 03/07/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Hong Kong
cool Jazzwee, your explanation is really kool:

Quote:
I haven't tried on the piano but for example Bdim7 = Bb7b9. So if you think of the F as a ii chord (i.e. a Min7) then it leads into the Bb7b9. (ii-V)


thumb
I never thought of it that way.

Now I also understand:

Quote:

Also instead of Em7 Am7 Dm7, that could actually have suggested Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C which is 3 6 2 5 1 which is just extending the harmony of G7 using the circle of fifths.

The Am7 plays with the harmony a little bit instead of the A7. Vaguer but done a lot in modern jazz.




So my Chord progression is actually doing this:


Fm7 Bb7b9

ii7 V7

And then:

Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C
3 6 2 5 1


So if I were to reharmonize this to the first line, the first melody tone C is actually harmonized with Fm7 and Bb7b9, is that right?

Because in my original version, I had the FM7 harmonizaing the C tone and then the the Bdim harmonizing the 2nd melody tone B.

When I have more time, I want to get back into your jazz threads and do more jazz improvisation and reharmonization. I see you have started an intermediate/advanced thread now, so I am a bit behind.

Thanks for helping me out.
Rosa


Edited by rosa2009 (11/19/10 04:14 AM)

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#1560710 - 11/19/10 10:56 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Rosa, yes that's why I'm saying...but all in theory as I didn't try it out on the piano.

It's fun to come up with theoretical explanations of how it works but in reality it's trial and error and the choices suggest new harmonies. Sometimes it's too far out and sometimes it sounds really cool.

It does seem to note that our ear looks for some connection between the chords no matter how lightly suggested. So F to Bb7b9 suggests a ii-V. But it could be suggesting a F7 Bb7, which is a common movement too (the Blues....).
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#1560880 - 11/19/10 05:28 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Just for fun, here's a short snippet of a Joy to World Reharm. Rosa, you should post yours too so we can see what it sounds like. This is very short and I didn't go far out or anything. It's still in the key of C. I just did this on the fly so I didn't plan it out or practice it.

http://www.box.net/shared/y39ghqvdie
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#1561047 - 11/20/10 12:38 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
rosa2009 Offline
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Posts: 37
Loc: Hong Kong
coolJazzwee, this is exciting trying out new sounds. You know, I am so used to playing this at church in Gospel style that the sounds are very predictable but I need to play like that for people to sing.

I'll try to record something and see what I come up with.

Rosa

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#1561060 - 11/20/10 01:45 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: rosa2009]
Mike A Offline
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Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 520
Loc: So.Cal.USA
Originally Posted By: rosa2009
You know how in Joy to the World, we can just play the following chords for the first line:

C G7 C G7 C

And instead of playing the above progression, I can do something like this for the introduction to lead into the song (using the same 1st line melody tones):

F Bdim7 Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7 C G7 ...then start the song with C then G7 C G7 .....


I know we can do the above because of the Circle movement of 2 5 1, but what is the explanation of being able to start with the F Chord instead of the C chord in songs that are in Key of C? Other than the fact that a C melody tone works for the F Chord and we can move via the circle, are there other more specific explanations to this as to why it works?



Hi Rosa,

I like that line. I would probably play the Bdim7 with F in the bass (as Fdim7 - same notes), although I think calling it Bdim7 more accurately reflects its function.

The F "works" here for this reason:

The Em7 is a tonic-function substitute, IIIm7 for I.

The Bdim7 that precedes it is functioning as an incomplete dominant, G7b9 (V7b9). So the Bdim7 - Em7 has the sound, and function, of V7b9-I (G7b9 - Cmaj7) in the key of C, with Bdim7 substituting for G7b9 and Em7 substituting for Cmaj7.

Preceding that with F makes perfect sense; it is subdominant, IV. So, functionally, what you have here is IV-V7b9-I (although in fact it's IV-VIIdim7-IIIm7). Because you're doing this quick IV-V-I move to a tonic-function chord in C (and immediately continuing the progression by cycle of fifths back to I), you don't get any confusion as to the key ... C, not F. Your ear tells you immediately that you're not in the key of F (also emphasized by the fact that the second melody note is B-natural).

Or at least that's the way I see it.

Cheers,
Mike

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#1561062 - 11/20/10 01:50 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
rosa2009 Offline
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Registered: 03/07/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Hong Kong
Jazzwee.....I came up with this. I've lost my box.net account so I uploaded this onto my server.

http://www.pianotutorials.learnpianowithrosa.com/JoyReharm.mid

I actually did Fm/Bb7 as my starting chord. I combined both of these things.

Then I went onto Dm7 instead of 36251. Because I did that, I could not fit in the A7 at all.

This is my chord progression for the first line:

Bb7b9 Dm13 Em7sus Dm9 G7b9 C6/9 A7b9 D7b9 G7 Db7 C


On the LH, for Dm13 and Em7sus, I played quartals as you suggested.


Let me know what you think,

Rosa

Is Barb around do you know? I remember we used to be in your Autumn Leaves thread playing together.

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#1561063 - 11/20/10 02:02 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
There are so many ways to interpret this. When I actually played Rosa's changes, I heard it completely differently. To me, the F sounded like Am/F or an inversion of Am6.

The connection to the original chords makes more sense when one plays it. In Bdim7, B of course is the 3rd of G, D is the 5th of G, F is the b7 so that connects it strongly to the original G7, with the only difference being Ab. Thus is really is just an inversion of G7b9 / Bb7b9 / Db7b9 / E7b9

So when I made my version, I kind of took the idea of just making it minor sounding.
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#1561066 - 11/20/10 02:15 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 7096
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Rosa, it sounds great! Reharms are wonderful. Even minor differences just make the familiar music sound fresh again. It's hard to overanalyze this stuff as it doesn't speak of how well it sounds when it is done.

But the analysis does help one to "copy".

Someone was teaching me a comping method by jazzer Kenny Werner. You might think this to be strange but he would comp the melody with any chord and the chords don't follow any rule other than the melody fits in it. So all these interesting ALT chords, and combinations come up. And it actually sounds very good. He's comping for Toots Thielemans if you care to look for the album.

Also, we haven't discussed voicings. Sometimes just a change in voicings makes you think it's a different chord. Like I was thinking of Am/F. Changing the bass root changes the character a lot even without actually reharming.

Another thought is just the vagueness of open voicings (like 3 note spread out voicings). Depending on what's in the root, it could suggest something completely differently yet it's easy to play. If you listen to what I played, it was just playing around with 3 note voicings like that. Easy to do.

BTW Rosa, Barb hasn't posted recently but I have a feeling that she lurks.
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#1561067 - 11/20/10 02:18 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
Mike A Offline
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Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 520
Loc: So.Cal.USA
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
To me, the F sounded like Am/F or an inversion of Am6.


Am6 ... F#, not F

Am/F = Fmaj7

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#1561071 - 11/20/10 02:31 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: Mike A]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Mike A
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
To me, the F sounded like Am/F or an inversion of Am6.


Am6 ... F#, not F

Am/F = Fmaj7


Yup. You're right. Good catch.
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#1561216 - 11/20/10 11:21 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Rosa, hard to think of this without a piano. It was so obvious what the minor sound was. I should have seen it immediately.

FMaj7 = Dm7(9)
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#1561264 - 11/20/10 01:28 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
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I just saw this thread for the first time today... and I went right to page 1, Mary Had a Little Lamb.
Today I started NOODLING it smile lol......
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#1561279 - 11/20/10 02:09 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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There you go! It's very freeing, isn't it? Rules can come a lot later!

If you do this to Christmas songs your audience will be impressed.
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