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I am pretty sure Brad is playing in 7 the whole way through on that clip. It's not clear in the beggining but I clearly hear 7 after 1:50. But he is doing a lot of things against it to make it not sound like 7.It's the same thing is that Ben Wendell is doing on his tune too...or Chris Potter, Dave Holland ..etc etc

BTW this is a difficult to transcribe, I don't think it's impossible, I am sure there are plenty of people who can transcribe stuff like this.

Rhythmically It really isn't that much different than what Thomas Ruckert is doing on this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovqa_WG5z74

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gBTc0dWAEg

this is still in 4/4 the other meters are "implied".

Likewise, I don't think Brad Mehldau changed meter in that solo, every meter change is implied in 7, and they should all fit in 7.

I've tried to play the rhythm that Ruckuert is doing as well as Brad's.

You're thinking of Brad's as 7. But it's really simpler than that. You play 3/4 right? When you play a waltz, do you play your lines classical style with the accent on beat 1? Of course not. Jazz Waltz is played with a 3 against 4 pattern which causes the syncopation (generated by the empty space). If you play eighth notes in a 4/4 against a 3/4 beat, the accents will change from upbeats to downbeats. The concept here is to make a Jazz Waltz swing.

7/4 implies a consistency that doesn't exist. The occurence of a 3 against 4 rhythmic play (which I studied for an entire year with my teacher), is not a constant thing like playing 5/4 when doing the solo. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not there so you can't deliberately count 7 all throughout the entire tune. If you think this way then you'll be changing from 3/4 to 4/4 pretty frequently.

Ruckuert is not doing that. He's playing Bach style with no swing. I must understand this since my teacher played exactly like Rueckert at my last lesson (I passed him the youtube link). And he showed me how he accented downbeats instead of upbeats.

The difference in the sound between Mehldau and others playing 2-handed is that Mehldau has that cut-note effect, which in a simplified explanation is like a singer cutting off some of the words short (non-legato). Now, you can over analyze this because he happens to do this cut-effect on notes on the upbeat. I've over-analyzed this until recently. But what Mehldau has discovered here is that he's just trying to emulate a normal human voice in conversation. He's just about said this in a TV interview (no Youtube unfortunately but I saw it on TV). In normal conversation, some words are short (like conjunctions) and if you articulate them, they are cut off.

So far I haven't found a good Jazz singer that follows this style on Youtube but I heard the exact thing on Sirius-Real Jazz while driving. I just couldn't remember the name of the singer. Bobby McFerrin does it a lot too but no good Jazz example on youtube.

The trick to seeing if I'm right or wrong is if I can duplicate the phrasing feel. And I can. And I'm certainly not counting 7/4 or 3 against 4 (although of course that is something I've practiced for awhile). I can scat-sing it too.

Now I understand why some teachers approach some of this by singing. On the Sirius Radio yesterday (long drive), I was listening to Wynton Marsalis sing a 12/8 and what was discussed as broken time (shifting between 4/4 and 12/8). It's a lot easier to duplicate it when thinking along these lines.

What Brad is doing is certainly unique among pianists. But now that I understand it, I realize he uses it ALL THE TIME.

Another way of looking at this: Feel the swing between Rueckert and Mehldau. Are you saying the swing is the same? I think not.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say,
Are you saying that Brad's solo is not in any specific meter? As far as I know Ruckert's solo is in 5 for the entire time, and Brad's solo is in 7 for the entire time. Of course the time does fluctuate, but its still in a strict meter.



Well I don't know what to tell you because I talked to Thomas Ruckert through email and he explained his rhythmic concept to me, which was very different than how you characterized it here. He is doing stuff like like grouping 2 bars of 5/4 into 3-3-2-2, 3-4-2..etc.. which makes it sound like its not in 5 because the phrase can happen in any part of the beat. It's the same thing Dave Holland does in "free for all over" 4/4..

well but who knows maybe you and your teacher have insight that even thmoas ruckert himself is not aware of??

BTW Can anyone else paraphrase what jazzwee is saying in a way I can understand it?

Brad's solo is in 4/4 the whole way. That's ok, etcetera, I don't have to explain it. I think I am happy that I'm understanding it. Obviously if it's so easily understood there would be 50 other Mehldaus now.

I don't dispute 5/4 in the Like Someone in Love. I'm saying that it wasn't intended to swing as it is downbeat focused. Are you saying it is not Bach Style?

You are characterizing cases of note groupings as a meter instead of just what they are, phrasings. Under your "meter" mantra, a lot of Jazz will be shifting 12/8 and 4/4 especially among horn players. But that's not what they're doing. They're just playing with a double time feel. My definition of meter is that it is the underpinnings of the rhythm section. By playing 12/8, the soloist is playing AGAINST the rhythm section. A soloist playing a counter-rhythm does not alter the meter.

Brad's solo is in 4/4 all the way? are you serious? I mean c'mon at least its obvious that the end 3:35-3:42 is clearly in 7!! that should at least tell you it's not 4/4 all the way.. and I don't really hear him suddenly changing from 4/4to 7/4 all the sudden

You do agree at least that when the rhythm section comes in its in 7 right???

I don't　really know how to explain what I am trying to tell you.. based on your response it's obvious I am not really getting through. I feel like you are arguing against my point without really knowing what I am really talking about. Who knows maybe you are much better player than I am and I am just ignorant. but I really don't know anything from just talking, and obviously we are not really understanding each other, so I figure, maybe we can just agree to disagree?

Again I am surprised that you didn't notice the last part(3:35-3:42) on the solo was in 7, he really gives it away at that point...I mean it's soooo obvious at that point... all these things(and the comments on the video) makes me wonder whether you are really right about the whole thing being in 4...

Again I have to ask you, You do agree at least that when the rhythm section comes in its in 7 right??? because if we are disagreeing on that, we are clearly hearing different kind of music!!

If you listen to Live at vanguard CD, the whole thing is in 7, the solo piano part is faster, but you hear the 7 much clearer. I've heard other versions and I've never heard him play ATTYA in 7, so logistically I don't see why he would do the solo part in 4 on this particular clip.



If you actually read the info It clearly says .."Solopiano Version in 5 / Jarrett like " So I don't know how you got the Bach style, unless you were watching the other version. And I really don't know what you mean by downbeat based, his phrases rarely starts in 1, or on the beat most of the time.

I give up.

Obviously we are talking past each other. You can play it in 7/4 and I'll play it in 4/4 with counter-rhythms.

One of these days you can post your version and I can post my version and we can rediscuss it then.

jazzwee,

ok, well, I hope you meant that for the solo piano part, because if you are still playing in 4 while the band is playing, you'll probably get fired!!

we don't have to agree about the solo part, but at least we can agree that when the band comes in(and the moments leading up to it), its in 7 right?

Btw I am looking forward to hearing you post your play Mehldau style.. I am really not good enough to do anything like that so maybe you can do everyone here a favor and show us how its done

You guys are both off, want me to email you a transcription of Brad's ATTYA solo?

By the Jazzwee how do you define what 7/8 means?
And do you really hear Blue Skies as a blues?

Jazz+

Sure, I mean I am not 100% sure about the time, but at least I am pretty sure that its in 7 when i comes in.

Besides, from what I remember on the live at village vanguard CD.. brad plays the intro part mostly in 7..

You are mostly correct, it's a lot of 7/8, but there are a few other sudden meter changes now and then.

thanks now we can put the whole argument to rest... I am glad though that I was partially right.. because if it was all in 4/4, then I must be totally confused about everything.

Btw I looked at the transcription.. gee I am lucky If i can do anything like that in 10 years!!

This is like missing my point completely. I was talking about executing the phrasing. And I can execute the phrasing within the framework of 4/4. Then the discussion degenerated into that being a meter thing. My original point is that Mehldau's phrasing can be found in any of his tunes and he uses the same device regardless of meter.

You know it's okay to admit that you were wrong or you don't know everything, I mean I do accept that I don't know about Brad's playing as much as I'd like to.

But who knows maybe you really are a genius and you have an insight only few people have about Brad Mehldau's playing, and you can somehow create something of that level. Again, if you do please do share us..

In fact, please feel free to share any recording, even if its not related to this topic.If you are really at that level, its probably way beyond any of us here, and we sure can learn alot from you!!

What did I just say earlier in this thread etcetera? I told you I was hearing the pattern that Mehldau was creating and that in a few months I would be able to recreate it. I was trying to share it with you and you instead create this attacking personality.

And I still disagree with the premise of this "VARIED METERS" in a single ATTYA tune. It's crazy to think that. It's like saying Mehldau has no time!

The fact that he weaves in and out of main meter by rhythmic displacement doesn't change the timing of the chord progression.

Since you claim it is in 7/4, please play it and post it. And be sure to STAY in 7/4.

Sigh...you see the trees...I see the forest. Good luck.

Jazz+,

Now listen to Part 2 where the Trio merges what you call the "meter changes". In fact IGNORE Brad and just listen to the bass player and the drummer. Start at 3:40 or so where it is less distracting and the bass player is playing clear quarter notes. Now track the chord changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsW6K51lQkQ&feature=related

These guys are obviously masters of rhythmic displacement but how Brad breaks up the time is just by varying the subdivisions (which I now just view as rhythmic phrasings). He restores the displacements and I hear the harmony matching the time.

I don't know about you but I can play 4/4 to that bass player.

I agree with you jazwee that the basic rhythm doesn't change. He borrows, and pays back.

But I have a question. If you had never heard this recording before, and if the title was not at the top, could you recognize it as "All the Things You Are"?

I sure couldn't.

Joe, that's a hard one. That's the mystery of Jazz and maybe why nowadays is relegated to "Musician's music". As a beginner, it would be very difficult to actually relate it to the original ATTYA.

Some of these tunes, I've practiced to play in all kind of variations until I don't get lost. This is one of them. So a regular Jazz listener probably doesn't worry about that. They just probably enjoy the changing rhythm, the changing harmony and the melodic snippets and the extra tension in the music.

I would almost imagine that no one would want to listen to a Brad Mehldau because of the complexity of the music. But look at the crowds at this video and others. Something is clicking with the audience apparently. Maybe it's the originality. He's one of the players that draws a crowd.

I don't claim to imagine that somehow Jazz will get widespread attention somehow but just read the heated discussions here. At the very least, it gets a passionate response.

Oftentimes it holds me back from posting Jazz recordings at ABF because it's too far out for most I'm sure. But sometimes we just have to be true to ourselves. It gets me excited and I'm the lone one even in my own family. So I won't be insulted if you say I play too many notes.

Jazz+ gave me the transcriptions. There are quite a lot of meter change. It's mostly in 7 but He deliberately changes meter to 2/4, 5/4 3/4 ..etc.

You don't have to believe me, but please do look at the transcription before you jump into conclusion. I am sure jazz+ will be glad to give them to you. You can disagree all you want, but the transcriptions says it all... of course you can always say that whoever transcribed it doesn't know what he is doing and you know better than that guy..

Why don't you ask your teacher about this??? I am not expecting you believe me.. but I doubt that he would say the tune is in 4/4 the entire time.

As far as I know Jazz+, the comments on youtube, the transcription all indicate that the tune is (mostly) in 7. I hope you understand that I am not making this up.

BTW you know you can play quarter-note bass line in 7 right?