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#1302229 - 11/09/09 04:09 PM price confusion new Petrof III
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
I am not in the market for one, we are in the market for a used one, but what is the fair marker price, realistic price or whatever you want to call it for a new Petrof III (black ebony)

Though I have read quite some threads on prices it still confuses me. Some say take 30% to 40% off of the msrp. That sounds nice but that 10% difference is nothing to sneeze at.

I am not looking for an unrealistic sales price so low no one actually sells it at that price, just fair market price. Piano buyer list MSRP and SMP at $44,920.

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#1302256 - 11/09/09 05:05 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: hyona]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7164
Loc: torrance, CA
Hyona,

The last published P III MSRP from the former Petrof distributor, GIC, was $37,750 in basic PE. The current MSRP and MSP in Pianobuyer is $44,920. Granted that's a big difference, but not out of line with price increases on many pianos from Europe. The MSRP of a P III in Europe is 31.990,00 €. This is not out of line with the dollar price in the US.

Fair-market price does not apply here. The market for this piano is thin, the model comes from an older line, and it's probable that the piano is out of production and will be listed by Petrof on their website only until existing inventory is sold off.

You might want to read JimG's Petrof thread that he started today.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1302372 - 11/09/09 08:56 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: turandot]
swampwiz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 561
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Wow, just 2-1/2 years ago I saw a new Petrof III that sold for $16300.


Edited by swampwiz (11/09/09 08:56 PM)

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#1302442 - 11/09/09 11:01 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: swampwiz]
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: swampwiz
Wow, just 2-1/2 years ago I saw a new Petrof III that sold for $16300.


Well I am sure you saw what you saw but that price seems totally unrealistic to me. I am not saying that has never happened but it doesnt sound like a realistic price to me. I know of some pricing problems but hey if someone has a new Petrof III for sale for that price let me know right away, we can work out a deal.

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#1302614 - 11/10/09 09:26 AM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: hyona]
JimG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 59
Loc: Georgia, USA
Hyona,

Please keep me advised what you find out on your Petrof III search. I am looking at a Petrof II and I have the same kind of confusion on pricing. Wildly different pricing from dealer to dealer.

Thanks
JimG

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#1302885 - 11/10/09 05:53 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: JimG]
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
Jim, I am not in the piano business and never plan to be. I must honestly say though that this whole issue with the msrp and than the more realistic sales price is just ludicrous. It is confusing and totally turns me off. I might step on some toes but frankly I don't care. I have had some really good input from some people here on the forum. Some dealers seem to be really fair and honest with their prices. I dont mind people making money, fine by me. But whoever is the dingbat that thought up these ridiculous differences is msrp and sales prices should be ashamed of himself. Because of some people on the forum, i at least understand why. I understand Petrof's past(?) problems, but even when you take that factor out, these prices just don't make any sense.

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#1302897 - 11/10/09 06:18 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: hyona]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19263
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: hyona
Jim, I am not in the piano business and never plan to be. I must honestly say though that this whole issue with the msrp and than the more realistic sales price is just ludicrous. It is confusing and totally turns me off.


What's so confusing? It can be explained in a few sentences.

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#1302939 - 11/10/09 07:46 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: pianoloverus]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7164
Loc: torrance, CA
Don't take the bait, Hyona. Trust me. Absolutely nothing good will come of it. Just take a deep breath and exhale slowly.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1303012 - 11/10/09 10:21 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: turandot]
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
took a breath and exhaled, doing fine no worries. Thanks

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#1303177 - 11/11/09 10:46 AM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: hyona]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7164
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: hyona
I must honestly say though that this whole issue with the msrp and than the more realistic sales price is just ludicrous. It is confusing and totally turns me off. I might step on some toes but frankly I don't care. I have had some really good input from some people here on the forum. Some dealers seem to be really fair and honest with their prices. I dont mind people making money, fine by me. But whoever is the dingbat that thought up these ridiculous differences is msrp and sales prices should be ashamed of himself. Because of some people on the forum, i at least understand why. I understand Petrof's past(?) problems, but even when you take that factor out, these prices just don't make any sense.


Petrof is possibly the most extreme case of MSRP inflation vs. market realities. The fact that the Fine SMP prices support every Petrof MSRP dollar for dollar doesn't alter the reality either. But even among those here in this forum who find Petrof pricing absurd, I doubt there is a feeling that Petrof is trying to gouge consumers, just that they are reaching too high too soon in trying to remain solvent. There has to be some sympathy for any piano maker that is trying to keep its workers gainfully employed by diverting a hefty part of their piano production into furniture and cabinet making instead of instituting layoffs or shortened work weeks.

B U T, you are right. The whole sales model of acoustic pianos is out-of-date with contemporary consumer shopping patterns and preferences.

The only thing that would clean up the mess and bring some consistency to pricing is increased demand. You can't get any market makers into acoustic piano sales because so few people are interested in buying them. A big box vendor/Internet provider such as Guitar Center or Sam Ash has no interest in a slow-turn high-maintenance product that takes up lots of precious floor space. Add to that the fact that most acoustic piano shoppers don't want to audition pianos amidst the cacophony of looky-loo drummers and wannabe Pete Townshends and all the costs of a low-traffic enclosed studio (think Best Buy/Magnolia) would have to be factored in.

Direct sell is another possibility, but even if it comes with the sweetener of sales participation by vendors local to the person inquiring (trial balloon from Kawai), it really won't work unless the dealer network willingly sticks or is compelled by the manufacturer to stick to uniform pricing. When today's consumers think of 'direct sell', they don't think of the convenience of one-click shopping. Their thoughts are directed toward monetary savings through elimination of middlemen. A direct sell approach with the caveat to consumers that "your price may vary depending on your local provider" would fail miserably.

Putting all this aside, your Petrof-related posts indicate that you are dealing with a private-party offering of a used piano. This is capitalism in its simplest form. How much is it worth to you to possess it? How little will the seller take to accomplish his purpose of moving it? All you can do is to get a general sense of the market through comps to establish a rough valuation. What happens from that point on is a matter of instinct, not of current MSRP, SMP, or wildly varying actual selling prices of new pianos.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1303196 - 11/11/09 11:20 AM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: turandot]
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
Exactly. I was not just talking on Petrof's. I understand the problems they had. But from the beginning of our search pricing seemed to be a problem. Though we hadn't made the purchase yet we had pretty much decided to buy this 2000 Petrof, this thread wasn't really written to make up our mind. I like clarity and didn't really get that on prices. I know we cannot compare different products, but in this day and age it is so easy to compare different products from different vendors and make up your mind. Not so with pianos. As I said before I don't mind a business making money, I just want to make sure I am not being ripped off. Though I understand the reasoning behind it, it doesn't help that most dealers are so secretive with their pricing. You write them you don't get a straight answer, you call them, you don't get a straight answer, you even go there and don't get a straight answer.
Maybe that is not how it usually goes? Maybe I just had a bad experience? Nah...I don't think so.
Don't get me wrong, there are good guys out there. We dealt with some of them, they just might not have had what we were looking for.
I love to compare before making a decision. But buying a piano is almost like buying art. You like it or you don't and the price is pretty much what the artist wants. You can negotiate of course.

Anyways some on the forum have given me some really good advice and we are very grateful. We are not stressed, we're happy but I sure hope I won't have to go piano shopping anytime soon.

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#1303226 - 11/11/09 12:14 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: hyona]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19263
Loc: New York City
SMP -(10-30)%.

Very complicated?

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#1303276 - 11/11/09 01:15 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: pianoloverus]
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
Let me take the bait, just to have some fun. Complicated maybe not so much. lets just take a SMP of $ 40,000. SMP-10%= $36,000. SMP-30%=$28,000. Complicated? No not at all. What could I do with those $8,000.
There is too much difference there, if you think that is normal, you are not all there. Sorry, you patronize me for not understanding something. I understand the math, I don't understand people like you who think this is good reasoning. take 10-30 % off, give me a break. Of course I know that but it makes no sense, a bit more accuracy would be nice. Take 20-25% off would make sense. 20% spread makes no sense.


I have too much time on my hands today, funny people. Dumb, dumber and dumpster.

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#1303301 - 11/11/09 01:37 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: hyona]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19263
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: hyona
Let me take the bait, just to have some fun. Complicated maybe not so much. lets just take a SMP of $ 40,000. SMP-10%= $36,000. SMP-30%=$28,000. Complicated? No not at all. What could I do with those $8,000.
There is too much difference there, if you think that is normal, you are not all there. Sorry, you patronize me for not understanding something. I understand the math, I don't understand people like you who think this is good reasoning. take 10-30 % off, give me a break. Of course I know that but it makes no sense, a bit more accuracy would be nice. Take 20-25% off would make sense. 20% spread makes no sense.


I have too much time on my hands today, funny people. Dumb, dumber and dumpster.


There have been numerous threads at PW explaining why there has to be a large range in the % off SMP. Have you read any of them?

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#1303319 - 11/11/09 02:04 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: pianoloverus]
Brent B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 348
Loc: Western/Central PA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: hyona
Let me take the bait, just to have some fun. Complicated maybe not so much. lets just take a SMP of $ 40,000. SMP-10%= $36,000. SMP-30%=$28,000. Complicated? No not at all. What could I do with those $8,000.
There is too much difference there, if you think that is normal, you are not all there. Sorry, you patronize me for not understanding something. I understand the math, I don't understand people like you who think this is good reasoning. take 10-30 % off, give me a break. Of course I know that but it makes no sense, a bit more accuracy would be nice. Take 20-25% off would make sense. 20% spread makes no sense.

I have too much time on my hands today, funny people. Dumb, dumber and dumpster.


There have been numerous threads at PW explaining why there has to be a large range in the % off SMP. Have you read any of them?


Hyona,

As someone who just went throught the piano buying process, I feel your pain. Unfortunately (even though it may not make much sense to us consumers), it's just the way it is.

I'm no expert on the matter, but here's my opinion...

Dealers are simply trying to maximize profit to stay afloat (and keep all those great techs and salesman employed), and buyers are simply trying to get the best deal possible.

Every dealer is different--different sales volumes, different numbers of employees, different geographic location, varying levels of prep/attention to the pianos they sell. These are just a few of the things that cause prices to be very different from one dealer to the next.

Dealers are just trying to make enough money to be compensated for the great work that they do, pay their employees, and keep the shop open. I really don't think (with the exeption of a few) most of them are trying to get rich by pulling the wool over our eyes and ripping us off.

When it comes to high ticket items (cars, boats, homes, and, yes, pianos) there will always be an element of negotiation. It keeps things interesting and spurs competition--this is beneficial to us because if dealer A wants to charge more than dealer B, he better have the service, professionalism and loyalty to his customers to go along with that higher price tag.

So use the 10-30% off SMP to get started and approximate what you can afford. Then, most importantly........

Find a dealer you like and trust, negotiate the best price you can, and everyone wins!

Brent
_________________________
Estonia 190

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#1303459 - 11/11/09 05:12 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: Brent B]
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
Brent,
I agree, service and trust have enormous value. I understand that and value those so that I am willing to pay more.

pianoloverus,
Yeah I read some of them, but only if they were some more recent posts. Obviously I didn't read enough of them. I didn't realize that you would have to do so much digging around as a consumer for some decent price information. If, as you said it is not at all confusing and can be explained in a few sentences, why all those threads. You could have just told me in a few sentences and be done with it. I probably won't be searching all those threads.
I got some great info and help from some other members here on the forum who actually understand where I am coming from.
Though I might have made some mistakes in the following list and also know some of these prices that were offered might have been abnormalities, some of the 'confusion' comes from this:

Name followed by price offered followed by msrp followed by discount on msrp followed by smp and discount on smp, sorry it looked much better on my screen

offered at, smrp, discount on smrp.smp. discount on smp
yamaha gb1 $10,000 $14,099 -29% $12598 -20%
Kohler&c.KCG500 $7,995 $12,590 -36% $10860 -26%
yamaha gc1 $14,000 $23,899 -41% $19998 -29%
PetrofIII $26,000 $44,920 -42% $44920 -42%
yamaha c1 $17,000 $29,699 -42% $25998 -34%
brodman 187 $13,697 $24,970 -45% $16980 -19%
Wendl&Lung 178 $11,000 $21,400 -48% $21400 -48%
Wendl&Lung 161 $9,360 $18,320 -48% $18320 -48%
Hailun176 $7,500 $17,295 -56% $13590 -44%
Hailun 161 $5,500 $14,795 -62% $11590 -52%

Clarity 0%

The Hailun's were just an amazing deal so ok, take those out. It still shows too much of a spread and the majority not in the 10-30%

I have many more examples but don't have all the prices handy.

Why waste my time? Well I have a bit of off time and this beats sudoku for now.
I am in 'fightin' mood with a big smile on my face. I am taking all this with a big bag of salt (grain wasn't enough)though I am serious about the need of some better pricing system.




Edited by hyona (11/11/09 05:24 PM)

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#1303462 - 11/11/09 05:19 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: hyona]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19263
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: hyona
If, as you said it is not at all confusing and can be explained in a few sentences, why all those threads. You could have just told me in a few sentences and be done with it.


The threads are about why the dealer prices vary, not about how to calculate a reasonable ballpark dealer price.

As I and Brent have said, just use SMP - (10-30)%. For all the reasons Brent said and many others, it's not possible to give a more precise disocunt from SMP. If you don't like one dealer's price, find another one and see what they will sell the piano for.

The extreme discounts in some of your examples may be due to today's extreme economic conditions or any number of other reasons. I don't think Fine's book could/should try and factor in the economy. Nor do I think he bases his discounts on figures for 10 pianos.

The MSRP's are not relevant so should not be part of your calculations.


Edited by pianoloverus (11/11/09 05:33 PM)

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#1303465 - 11/11/09 05:25 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: pianoloverus]
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: hyona
If, as you said it is not at all confusing and can be explained in a few sentences, why all those threads. You could have just told me in a few sentences and be done with it.


The threads are about why the dealer prices vary, not about how to calculate a reasonable delear price.

As I and have said, just use SMP - (10-30)%. If you don't like one dealer's price, find another one and see what they will sell the piano for.


Thank you

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#1303650 - 11/11/09 09:13 PM Re: price confusion new Petrof III [Re: hyona]
hyona Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Seattle
You see, that wasn't so hard.
In my area, not too much competition, they all carry different brands. I agree that Larry Fine should not factor in the economy. Point taken on the SMRP. As I said before I don't mind dealers making money, they should. I am not knocking them and my post was not written with that in mind.

My calculations were not a scientific experiment and should not be taken as such. It is just an example of what is going on out there.

Anyways, thanks guys.

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