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#1302510 - 11/10/09 02:17 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
jazzwee,

I strongly urge you to take a look at the transcription.. the solo part is not in fixed meter!!!

I will write down the actual meter changes for the first 12 bars of Brad's solo piano intro for you

7/8|7/8|7/8|4/4
7/8|7/8|4/4|7/8
4/4|5/8|7/8|7/8

I hope you get my point now. So how you are feeling 2/4 over all that is beyond my understanding.




Edited by etcetra (11/10/09 02:20 AM)

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#1302511 - 11/10/09 02:18 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Rossi's fingers on the bass? It's my friend Larry Grenadier on bass amd Jeff Ballard on drums. Your eyes are playing tricks on you now.


Haha. Touche. I meant Larry. Rossi's back in Spain somewhere I presume.
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#1302512 - 11/10/09 02:19 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
|111_111
_111_11 |

|_111_11
_111_11 |

|111111_
111111 _|


Jazzwee,


Those look like just various groupings within 7, not sure what what's so unique about it. Don't need to think 2 for that, 2 will only make it less subdivided and thus more difficult.

4 beats then 3 beats ... I doubt he's thinking a wide 14

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#1302513 - 11/10/09 02:22 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
The bassist and drummer are thinking 7 and Brad too, though he does his various poly-rhythmic tricks over the top of it all.

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#1302514 - 11/10/09 02:29 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
I find listening to 7 not particularly enjoyable, it's tedious and sounds off kilter to me. I see it as one of those things where the players that are into it enjoy it more than the listeners. Jazzwee mentioned his teacher doesn't dig it much either. I much prefer Keith Jarret's uptempo 4/4 trio version of All The Things You Are. I have a very accurate transcription of that one too.

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#1302516 - 11/10/09 02:32 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I edited the post as it didn't come out right initally

This is playing 3/4 over 7/4
(X represent accent)

X23X56X|12X45X7|1X34X67|


This is playing 5/4 over 7/4
X2345X7|123X567|1X3456X|1234567


So you can use rhythmic pattern in any meter and play it over any meter, as long as you know where you are. For example you can play the same rhythmic pattern as the one you hear on B section of "Take 5", and if you do it once you will be on 6th beat, if you do it twice you will be on the 4th beat of the next measure.. and so on.

Jazz+

I personally like 7, I like the groove, it's hard to describe. But I do agree that the way Brad's playing all these polyrhythm over it.. sometimes it's too much for me too.


Edited by etcetra (11/10/09 02:41 AM)

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#1302517 - 11/10/09 02:36 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Before this went off into a meter discussion, I was only interested in Brad's phrasing and was intending to apply it to 4/4 as syncopations smile

But that's ok. It was rather educational as well thanks to you two. I don't think I'm planning on playing with switching meters randomly.
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#1302518 - 11/10/09 02:41 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Brad appears to switch meters in his intro, probably subconsiously too.

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#1302519 - 11/10/09 02:42 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
etc., I have to sign off now but in your meter discussions, where's the swing?

When playing 3/4, the masters overlay a 4/4 over it to make it swing. So the notes sounded are in BETWEEN. That same "in between" can be found in the first 3 beats in a 5/4.

This was why I was interested in Brad. Not because of the meter. That's where the phrasing was that I was paying attention to and recognizing the pattern.

My premise is that Brad swings because he subdivides more finely. I hope that doesn't start another debate.
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#1302520 - 11/10/09 02:45 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I wouldn't be surprised if he had something worked out... or maybe he did initially and he's able to switch things up between different variation...

like at the end of first phrase maybe he figured out an ending in 2/4 or 5/4, and he has the option to use either one of them at will (hypothetically)

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#1302522 - 11/10/09 02:46 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Here's "Fifty Ways To Leave Your Lover" played by Mehldau, guess what meter he is in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR8iiDEF4ek

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#1302524 - 11/10/09 02:48 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Mehldau and Metheny Duo "All The Things You Are"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8j_LRFO4Lc

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#1302552 - 11/10/09 05:49 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: Jazz+]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Boy, what a roller coaster ride. I learned a lot here guys. We were clearly not on the same page and now I understand why you were so agitated Etcetera.

I thought you were trying to tell me that the tune went like this:

| 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 |
or
| 7/4 | 7/4 | 7/4 | 7/4 |

And I couldn't hear that so I kept countering you. Now it becomes clear that the measures actually go:

| 4/4 | 3/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 |
totalling to a 7/4 time sig. Wow, what a mess smile

Next time, I'll know to clarify the progression. So this clarifies in my head what I'm hearing and why I could be fooled into hearing a 4/4 with all the poly-rhythms going on.

I appreciate the explanations.
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#1302553 - 11/10/09 05:50 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
I'm not going to listen now but I recall the Metheny/Mehldau version to be 5/4.
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#1302613 - 11/10/09 09:25 AM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
when people say 7/4 its almost always 4+3.. you can think of it as 4/4+3/4, but its usually written as 7/4


Edited by etcetra (11/10/09 09:36 AM)

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#1302710 - 11/10/09 12:48 PM Re: this is where too many notes are meaningful [Re: etcetra]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
According to Jeff Ballard the drummer, after a bar of 4 and a bar of 3, another way they think of 7 is "half time 7"

Two bars( in 7/4):

1,3,5,7,2,4,6,1.....etc

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