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#1312739 - 11/26/09 11:18 AM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: Hot_Lexxus]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hot_Lexxus
The only known recording that explains this ballade in full:



Is this Carnegie Hall?

I thought the performance has some moments of great beauty mixed with others of exteme willfullness and strange playing.

Some inner voices he emphasizes don't work at all for me. For example, right at the beginning, playing the C,A,G left hand voice loudly sounds tasteless to me. I listened to Zimmerman, Pollini, Horowitz, Rubinstein, Perahia, and Bolet. None of them do this.


Edited by pianoloverus (11/26/09 11:29 AM)

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#1312754 - 11/26/09 11:57 AM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: pianoloverus]
BruceD Offline
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Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hot_Lexxus
The only known recording that explains this ballade in full:



Is this Carnegie Hall?



This

Carnegie Hall

is Carnegie Hall.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1312758 - 11/26/09 12:04 PM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: BruceD]
pianoloverus Offline
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So it seems there is an extra "section" of seats in the hall shown for the video. I have been to CH innumerable times and thought the only sections were Box, Upper Box, Family Circle, and Balcony which is only four sections as in your photo.

But since I always sit in the upper Balcony(first half only!), I wasn't sure.


Edited by pianoloverus (11/26/09 12:06 PM)

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#1312770 - 11/26/09 12:29 PM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: pianoloverus]
david_a Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
I think Carnegie Hall has been through at least one if not more major re-fits over the years.
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#1312781 - 11/26/09 12:50 PM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: david_a]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: david_a
I think Carnegie Hall has been through at least one if not more major re-fits over the years.


I don't think they changed the seating sections. But it's possible there was once a row of lights for the upper balcony section and that is the fifth section that appears in the video photo.

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#1312805 - 11/26/09 01:21 PM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: pianoloverus]
Fredil Offline
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Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 216
The only meaning the music has is the meaning you give to it. I think that not all music has meaning that can be expressed in words. It's enough that you feel it, love it, and treasure every moment of it. One does not need to dissect a microwave to use it.

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#1312809 - 11/26/09 01:26 PM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
....Some inner voices he emphasizes don't work at all for me. For example, right at the beginning, playing the C,A,G left hand voice loudly sounds tasteless to me. I listened to Zimmerman, Pollini, Horowitz, Rubinstein, Perahia, and Bolet. None of them do this.

I thank you for highlighting that because it made me really listen for it. And actually it's not just the C-A-G; he leads up to it by making a whole tenor line, starting with G-A-G. I'm not sure I'd want to do stuff like that, but I wouldn't say it's tasteless. IMO it's "interesting."
BTW....he takes many other liberties too.

But mainly, thanks for posting this terrific rare video!!!!!
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#1312816 - 11/26/09 01:36 PM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: fingers]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: fingers
....the first 7 measures seem to express the past tense and the present tense begins in the 8th measure.....

I think that is very well said. Different people might want to put it a bit differently (or not at all) smile but I think in essence that's right on target.

And really, at least one more of the ballades is like that, if not all 4.
Certainly we could say #1 is. I remember reading (don't know where or by whom) that the opening is like, "This is how it was" .....and then the story begins in earnest with the rolling G minor melody.
And for me the 3rd is sort of like this too, although more ambiguously and I'm sure there would be huge disagreement, plus it wouldn't exactly be "past-present": I always felt that the first 16 measures "set it up" and the story begins in earnest only in measure 17.

And what can we say about #2......That repeated C at the beginning....... we might say the same thing.
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#1312858 - 11/26/09 03:28 PM Re: Cannot understand the meaning of the 4th ballade of Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14708
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
....Some inner voices he emphasizes don't work at all for me. For example, right at the beginning, playing the C,A,G left hand voice loudly sounds tasteless to me. I listened to Zimmerman, Pollini, Horowitz, Rubinstein, Perahia, and Bolet. None of them do this.

I thank you for highlighting that because it made me really listen for it. And actually it's not just the C-A-G; he leads up to it by making a whole tenor line, starting with G-A-G. I'm not sure I'd want to do stuff like that, but I wouldn't say it's tasteless. IMO it's "interesting."


My point was that those six great pianists(just the first six listed on Youtube) were undoubtedly aware of the inner line but chose not to bring ot out. My first reaction to hearing Hoffman's version was "This is so wierd and terrible sounding, I wonder if any other pianist does it?" I think I've heard other pianists bring out this line but much more subtly than Hoffman did. Of course, you're free to view it any way you like.

Just lisened to six more who did it the way I like: Sofronitsky, Lugansky, Arrau, Yunid Li, Kissin, Cziffra.


Edited by pianoloverus (11/26/09 03:40 PM)

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