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#1303940 - 11/12/09 11:12 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I think Chopin was trying to be more "normal" with the E minor concerto.

Please, nobody pay too much attention to James Huneker. Even if you can get past the turgid early 20th-century writing style, you'll find he doesn't really say much of anything.

Mark, my angel picture is the Stevenson memorial angel by Abbot Handerson Thayer. I love Thayer's angels, and this image has a particular meaning connected with my work as a healer, but mostly I've put her here as a sort of private joke, because she looks so amazingly like Mme Potocka.

Elene
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Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#1304498 - 11/13/09 01:20 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1417
Loc: under monsoon clouds
This morning Performance Today featured a rendition of the C# minor Nocturne/Lento con gran espressione on a copy of an 1820 fortepiano. You can hear it here:

http://performancetoday.publicradio.org/

The instrument is very plinky in its upper register, as one would expect. It seemed to me that the pianist played with a stiff, inelastic mechanism and got a harsher sound than I would have liked, but I'm not certain what to expect of this instrument and can't judge well. I liked the interpretation very much otherwise.

The performance took place at the international Chopin festival in Warsaw, where, as Fred Child (the host) noted, they take their Chopin very seriously.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#1304513 - 11/13/09 01:53 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
LOL about Huneker.......although I realize you weren't joking.
I actually ENJOY his stuff quite a bit, really because of that "turgid early 20th c. writing style" smile ......but I don't disagree with what you said. Even though I did buy his Chopin book -- can't help it, when it comes to Chopin I'm sort of a "collector."

Thanks for the info about the picture. I have to admit that I have NO IDEA who "Mme Potocka" is, but I'll check right after posting this.
BTW I'm a healer too, although probably a somewhat less interesting kind than you are. smile
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304515 - 11/13/09 01:58 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
[returns from research......] smile Huh........I guess I need to be more of a Chopin collector.
Y'know, I did have sort of a feeling it had to do with Chopin (d'oh!) and I think I heard somebody saying something-or-other about her during the Chopin competition this September.

from Wiki: "......a friend and muse to noted Polish expatriate artists Frédéric Chopin and Zygmunt Krasiński."

Picture of Mme Potocka:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Delfina_Potocka_4.jpg
Strong resemblance indeed!!
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304537 - 11/13/09 04:10 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon

from Wiki: "......a friend and muse to noted Polish expatriate artists Frédéric Chopin and Zygmunt Krasiński."

Rather delicately put - - - wink
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#1304545 - 11/13/09 04:37 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: -Frycek]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
.....I think I'm getting the picture..... :-)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304567 - 11/13/09 06:25 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
Curious2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Hi, I'm new here so I might as well introduce myself at this topic, after all, I am a Chopin lover.

I started playing the piano exactly one year ago. I'm from Finland and my teacher who has been teaching me ever since last November is Russian. She is quite demanding and very conservative (as Russians are when it comes to arts like these). Every lesson starts with scales and scales and.. scales. She says I should master all the scales perfectly and that's why I play them every day. smile But she keeps me motivated and I'm learning. I've played the piano for approximately 300h now.

About a month ago I managed to nail Chopins prelude number 4 in a quite satisfying way. My teacher thinks I'm now done with it and I should move on. My ultimate goal is to learn the Nocturne in sharp C-minor. Does anyone know how long it takes to learn the Nocturne for someone at my level right now?

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#1304609 - 11/13/09 09:16 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Curious2]
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Hello MarkCannon: I also enjoy reading Huneker because it is obvious that he was a huge fan of Chopin's. But as Jeff stated, I take him with a ton of salt, pretty much as I take so many other biographers. And I also wish you good luck.

Hi Curious223 and welcome.

To answer your question about that nocturne...wow, it is graded as an 8+, which is truly very difficult. I know how you feel when you hear a certain piece by Chopin and you want to play it. But this one takes loads of practice and calls for a lot of technique, especially in the left hand. Perhaps you could learn a few more of the preludes now (#6, #7,#9, #20 and continue with your scales (a good idea, by the way). Someday, with all the motivation I sense from you, you will be at that point when you could attempt in C#m. Don't be in a hurry to learn a piece that you are not ready for because it could only lead to some physical problems along with tons of frustration. I speak from experience.

Good luck to you and let us know how you are doing.

Cleff: Thank you for giving me those instructions in such wonderful detail. I appreciate it. Now I have to try to find some pictures that I would like to show.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1304646 - 11/13/09 09:51 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Chardonnay Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 505
Loc: Boston, MA.
Quote:
My ultimate goal is to learn the Nocturne in sharp C-minor.

Quote:
..wow, it is graded as an 8+, which is truly very difficult.

Are you two talking about the same nocturne? My impression was that Curious223 was talking about the posthumous C# min nocturne, which I didn't think was terribly difficult (certainly not 8+). But I'm not sure.

Even still, I couldn't reliably answer the question of how long it "should" take for someone with one year's experience to learn this piece; by the time I learned it, I had several years (divided) under my belt, and while it was within my grasp on a technical level, there were still challenges in interpretation. It took me at least a few months to get it memorized and fluent. Curious223, just give it a try- but you might want to consult your teacher as to your readiness.

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#1304672 - 11/13/09 10:23 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Chardonnay]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I agree about Huneker being taken with a grain of salt (if not a larger quantity smile ), though his prefaces in the Schirmer editions of Chopin have long represented to me a paradigm of the baroque writing style of his era.

Huneker penned the detailed obituary of Rafael Joseffy that was published in the New York Times on July 4, 1915. It's fascinating and beautiful—as much for the archaic graphic elements as for the author's predictably quirky way with words:

Joseffy obituary in pdf form

Steven

p.s. Eleanor Bailie ranks the posthumous Nocturne in c-sharp minor as Grade 7.
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1304711 - 11/13/09 11:26 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: sotto voce]
Curious2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Sorry for the confusion.

I am indeed talking about the Posthumous Nocturne c-sharp minor. The one in "The Pianist" film. It doesn't sound that difficult and it's not played so fast... I know it's ridicilous to hear something like this from a beginner, but the notes does not seem sooo hard.

Anyways thanks for the answers. If i ever get the permission to start on it, I'll let you know about my development on the Nocturne.

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#1304824 - 11/13/09 01:59 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Curious2]
Chopin4life Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 194
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Curious223
I know it's ridicilous to hear something like this from a beginner, but the notes does not seem sooo hard.


That may be true, but it makes up for it with interpretation and control. Welcome and I hope you'll be able to learn it soon.
_________________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." - Frédéric Chopin

"Hats off gentlemen, a genius!" - Schumann on Chopin

"Chopin is the greatest of them all, for through the piano alone he discovered everything" - Debussy on Chopin


Venables & Son 152

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#1304825 - 11/13/09 02:00 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Curious2]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Welcome! (Even though I'm new too.) smile
The way you put that part about "Russian teachers" is pretty funny, because it's such a stereotype but it's usually true.

It's hard to say "how long" it would take to learn that posthumous C# minor nocturne. It depends on how much the person practices, plus of course on other things about the individual.
And of course it depends on what we mean by "learning" -- do we mean just being able to play through it, or something more?

But nevertheless smile I'll give a time frame: I'd say a month.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304829 - 11/13/09 02:03 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Thanks for the good wishes! About Huneker.....yes, it's clear that he loved Chopin, but it seems that he loved his own writing even more. smile

And I don't hold that much against him. There's a certain charm about style of writing, plus I think there's a contagious enthusiasm about seeing almost anything that the person himself is so much into, whether it's writing, piano playing, dancing, or really almost anything.

P.S. I see that you have a Lyon & Healy piano......you might be interested in this other thread where someone asked what's the brand of a particular piano. I guessed L & H; nobody else thinks so. smile
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1303321
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304835 - 11/13/09 02:09 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: sotto voce]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Wow -- great get on Huneker's Joseffy obit. I just flashed on it and see that it's LONG, so I bookmarked it and I'll read it later.
Thanks!!!
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304838 - 11/13/09 02:11 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: sotto voce]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: sotto voce

p.s. Eleanor Bailie ranks the posthumous Nocturne in c-sharp minor as Grade 7.


BTW......I'm not at all familiar with this "grading" thing.
How high does the scale go?
What would something like the Mephisto Waltz grade at?
(I don't want you to look anything up, just to give me some idea off the top of your head.)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304877 - 11/13/09 03:07 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Mephisto Waltz would probably by "diploma level." Eleanor Bailie has a pianist guide to Chopin's solo works and she uses the ABRM grade levels - the lowest of any Chopin pieces is a prelude (I think 10/4 ?) that's a grade 4 going on up to "Very Advanced" - to clarify - most of the etudes are considered Grade 8 or Grade 8+ or Very Advanced. Most of Chopin is grade 7 up and up and up.
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Slow down and do it right.

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#1304897 - 11/13/09 03:29 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: -Frycek]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Huh.........so, that nocturne is JUST 1 LEVEL below the etudes?
Hmmmmm. smile
Sounds like the scale isn't very broad.
I would say there are several levels separating the two.
But maybe I'm a hair-splitter.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304977 - 11/13/09 05:28 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
Chopin4life Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 194
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
the lowest of any Chopin pieces is a prelude (I think 10/4 ?)

I think you mean 28/4. 10/4 certainly isn't easy wink

Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
Huh.........so, that nocturne is JUST 1 LEVEL below the etudes?
Hmmmmm. smile
Sounds like the scale isn't very broad.
I would say there are several levels separating the two.
But maybe I'm a hair-splitter.

I think, because 8+ and, especially, "very advanced" have no upper limit of difficulty,the difference in difficult levels can often seem less than they actually are. It can be anything from an 'easier' Chopin etude all the way to Rach 3. This is, of course, not considering what different people find difficult. For grade 8, I'm less sure, but I assume there is quite a large leap between grade 7 and 8?
_________________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." - Frédéric Chopin

"Hats off gentlemen, a genius!" - Schumann on Chopin

"Chopin is the greatest of them all, for through the piano alone he discovered everything" - Debussy on Chopin


Venables & Son 152

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#1304979 - 11/13/09 05:29 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Ok, I'm home now. I have my book at hand, the name of it is The Pianist's Repertoire Chopin by Eleanor Bailie. There's a pretty big gap betweem grade 7 and grade 8 and only the easiest etudes (three of twenty-seven) are listed as Grade 8, six more are listed as 8+ and the rest (eighteen of them) are listed as (shudder) Very Advanced. I can handle Grade 8, and 8+ with some trepidation but once one hits Very Advanced, one enters a no man's land. The harder etudes are literally "off the chart." So, you see, there can be quite a gap in difficulty between a grade 7 nocturne and the majority of the etudes.
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Slow down and do it right.

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#1304983 - 11/13/09 05:32 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Chopin4life]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: Chopin4life
I think you mean 28/4. 10/4 certainly isn't easy wink

I did. (sheepish look) Good spotting.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1304986 - 11/13/09 05:36 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Chopin4life]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
I guess the reason there can be such a huge gap between levels 7 and 8 (and 8+) is that once it's above "7," it's basically just "very advanced," and there's no need for such a scale because it's a whole different realm. Kind of like, above 7 is "off the scale," and above that level, pianists can essentially pick whatever they want and they'll fare pretty well.

The psychotic analogy that occurs to me smile is in WATER SKIING, when we "cross the wake." (Don't try to make any sense of that, I said it was nuts.) ha

Maybe here's a saner analogy: In some piano competitions there's a numerical system for advancing contestants to each next round but no such scale for judging the finals -- the judges just "discuss."

P.S. I didn't even notice that the other post said "Opus 10" for the prelude; I read it as though it had said Op. 28.
Sometimes our minds just automatically fill in the blanks.....
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1304987 - 11/13/09 05:37 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: -Frycek]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
(see above post for my 'theory' on why there can be such a gap between 7 and 8......)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1305037 - 11/13/09 06:39 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
I only know that I have and would attempt to learn a 7, but I would definitely give some serious thought to tackling an 8 again. help

Steven: That lovely C#m posth, NO, 20, nocturne is indeed a 7. Since the posth was omitted, I thought she was referring to the 27, #1. However, the runs are killers if one doesn't have any experience playing them. That's why scales are good practice. I say this with a guilty heart, since I haven't played them in many decades.

MarkCannon: When you do practice, dear heart?? smile

My Lyon and Healy has a lion inside. (Yes, a real one. eek It actually growls whenever I sit down to play. That's why I keep the top down.) I believe my piano tuner said that all their pianos had this trademark, somewhere.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1305038 - 11/13/09 06:42 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
LOL.......I guess you mean because I've been on here like continuously? eek
I'm new here and just can't get enough of it. And, truth be known, I've hardly been to the piano in these two days.
Presumably that will change. smile
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1305041 - 11/13/09 06:44 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Mark,

Eleanor Bailie makes clear in her book that her ratings are intended to encompass the works by Chopin that are within the reach of most pianists. She explains that her strategy was dictated by the need to avoid overwhelming length—the book is over 500 pages as it is—and by the recognition that the most advanced pianists are probably in least need of the sort of practice/performance guidance she provides. The practical result is that, while virtually all of Chopin's works in all categories receive some treatment, she goes into far less detail with those rated "VA" (Very Advanced).

Like you, I'm broadly unfamiliar with rating scales. They're arbitrary, and different sources offer different ones; of course, in the U.S. we don't have a national board to establish curriculum or grade levels, either.

Also, it's not uncommon for such categorizations to be skewed toward repertoire that reaches a moderately advanced level but not beyond, probably because relatively few people have virtuoso skills. A good example of that bias is this chart at Sheet Music Plus:

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/help/level-guidelines

It has ten levels, and representative compositions at the highest level are the Brahms Rhapsodies! Is as though they completely lopped off all genuinely advanced music, and then redistributed the scale amongst the lower ranks of difficulty.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1305053 - 11/13/09 07:05 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: sotto voce]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
YES! -- This part of what you said is exactly what I was thinking and what I tried to express: "......the recognition that the most advanced pianists are probably in least need of the sort of practice/performance guidance she provides."
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1305083 - 11/13/09 07:51 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: loveschopintoomuch]
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: loveschopintoomuch
MarkCannon: When you do practice, dear heart?? smile


I think he only practices just before a competition. laugh

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#1305088 - 11/13/09 07:53 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: LisztAddict]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Is my playing THAT bad? ha
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1305094 - 11/13/09 07:57 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
or you are just way too good! ha smile

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