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#1305612 - 11/14/09 08:14 PM
Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
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Hey everyone! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbcdkHROuao That is my recent recording of this masterpiece. Sorry for the awful recording quality. I know it needs work/polishing, but if you all could help me figure out exactly what to work on, it would be much appreciated. BTW, I play with the dynamics much more varied than this recording shows. I know I had a couple of memory slips and mistakes, but what should I work on ignoring those? Thanks!
_________________________
Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15
--Sam--
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#1305644 - 11/14/09 09:28 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: xtraheat]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
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What I would work on: In the first section of your recording, I think that the melody is very often stopping to wait for the after-beat chords, and the chords are also too strong, thus allowing the left hand's "rest chord chord" pattern to sound like it's part of the melody. Investigate what methods you might use to free the melody from being "held hostage" rhythmically like that: maybe playing the melody alone for a while, maybe singing the melody while only left hand plays, definitely creating a bigger dynamic difference between melody and chords; there are lots of other possibilities I'm sure.
I listened to the first bit and said "Hold it right there!" so I didn't even hear the second section yet.
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(I'm a piano teacher.)
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#1306197 - 11/15/09 05:42 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: david_a]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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I agree with everything you say, but I think maybe you make it seem like it's less good than it actually is.......
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1306204 - 11/15/09 05:57 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: xtraheat]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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......and in fact, the way you yourself present it makes it seem like it's less good than it is!!!! After seeing how you put it in your post, I was SURPRISED to see how GOOD the playing was!! I agree with what DavidA said (and I'll be adding some more critique, basically just amplifying on what he said), but, this is VERY GOOD PLAYING. I think your post made it sound like you just don't play that well, but you DO. You play VERY well. And, you really understand this piece, you hold it together, and "the hard parts" are all taken care of all right. I would PAY to be able to play those scales at the end like you do.  As for some suggestions, besides what David said..... I have 2 main areas of suggestion: dynamics, and rhythm. About the dynamics, it's very simple: You haven't scratched the surface on HOW SOFT you can get. Maybe you've 'tried,' but I bet you haven't "really tried." How to approach it? Maybe take some of the lyrical passages and for the moment, forget everything except playing AS SOFTLY AS THE PIANO CAN TAKE -- not because that's how you should actually play the piece, but just as a 'learning' thing. When you're doing that, don't be afraid of having "no sound" come out on a lot of the notes, because if that doesn't happen, it means you aren't yet playing as softly as possible. Play the passages again and again, worrying about nothing except getting the faintest sound possible, and try to get well acquainted with the physicality of doing that. (You might need a teacher to help you with the physical approach on this.) Then, bring that into your dynamic palette for everything, including even "big" sections. What we're talking about is expanding your RANGE of dynamics. About the rhythm.....You suffer a bit from two seemingly opposite things: Most of the time, at least to my taste, the pulse is a bit too rigid; you could "swing" a little more, especially in lyrical sections. (Imagine that you're SINGING; you would automatically bend the pulse here and there.) Yet, you tend to be TOO "flexible" (SUDDENLY flexible) at moments where the music becomes more intense -- you speed up. That's OK in moderation, especially if the playing in general shows more flexibility of pulse and rhythm, but I don't think it really works if you do it like that. NEVERTHELESS.......Let's not let the main thing get lost: This is VERY GOOD playing. Maybe what says the most is that my wife and I (she's sitting right here) were able to listen straight through, all the way, without the slightest thought of clicking ahead or turning it off. That's something....in fact, it's a lot, because we've heard this piece so many times that we're almost sick of it.  But we had no problem being interested to hear your performance all the way through, we ENJOYED it, and we kept saying how such-and-such part was 'better than' what we had heard elsewhere. Good job! Thanks for posting it.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1306207 - 11/15/09 06:02 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
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Sam - If the words I typed made me sound like I thought your playing was bad or something, then I'm going to have to apologize profusely. I thought "This guy is on the right track and he knows it" and jumped right into the details. Plus I didn't even listen to the "good part" yet.
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)
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#1306233 - 11/15/09 06:54 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: david_a]
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Full Member
Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 340
Loc: Geelong, Vic, Australia
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Marvelous performance. Keep it up!
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#1306235 - 11/15/09 06:59 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: david_a]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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......and I'm sorry if I made it sound like I thought you made it sound like it was bad.  I didn't mean that at all......just it wasn't clear that this was very good.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1306330 - 11/15/09 10:20 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
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Thanks for the comments everyone! David a, I did not take your comment in a bad way, and I have worked on what you advised. Thank you. Mark,thank you very much for your kind words! I am glad you liked the performance, and your comments were very helpful. I'm glad you liked it nextbigthingg
_________________________
Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15
--Sam--
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#1306334 - 11/15/09 10:22 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: xtraheat]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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BTW......I agree that the 4th ballade is "easier" than the 1st.
Although really it feels strange to use the word "easier" about something like this.
I'd definitely put it this way: The 1st is SCARIER. I might mess up the 4th a bit here and there, but there's nothing in it that I find "terrifying." The 1st is terrifying to me all over the place.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1306338 - 11/15/09 10:30 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
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You are the first person that has ever agreed with me on that haha... I don't understand what everyone finds SO difficult about the 4th Ballade... Sure the thirds are hard initially, but once you get the fingering, they are a piece of cake. That one section in the middle where there are thirds on the bottom and the melody on the top is pretty difficuly though. However, once I learned the notes, the beginnings of both of the pieces were the hardest parts for me
_________________________
Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15
--Sam--
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#1306343 - 11/15/09 10:36 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: xtraheat]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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Now wait a minute.  Now you're way underestimating the difficulty of the 4th ballade. Much of the difficulty is to know "what to do" from a musical standpoint. But even if we're just talking "fingers," there's so much in the piece that is very, very hard. The reason I say that I find the 1st ballade 'harder' and most definitely 'scarier' is .......let's see, how to put it: To me, the 4th is kind of like an intricate and complex puzzle and dance. The 1st is like an acrobatic high-wire act. P.S. I'm sure that doesn't really explain anything, but I like it anyway. 
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1306346 - 11/15/09 10:42 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
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To be honest, I really didn't find that much technical difficulty (not trying to sound cocky or better then I am, this piece just fit my technique really well). It all seemed to fit under the fingers really well, and it didn't have any sections like that middle scale section in the first one with really awkward fingerings. However, from a musical standpoint, it is probably the most difficult piece I have ever played interpretive-wise, and possibly one of the hardest ever written. All of this is solely my opinion though
_________________________
Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15
--Sam--
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#1306365 - 11/15/09 11:29 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: xtraheat]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 15660
Loc: Victoria, BC
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In the opening section (measures 8 through 26, or so), I think you need to shape the phrases. They are coming across without any sense of direction which is another way of saying three things: 1) everything comes across at the same volume and 2) there doesn't seem to be any sense of where the phrases are going nor 3) when one phrase ends and another begins. Let this section "breathe" a little more; give the phrases time to rise and fall, each in its own time.
Too often the last note of the phrase (the C in measure 10, the F-sharp in measure 12, the F in measure 14, etc.) sticks out in an almost jarring fashion. These notes are the last notes of the phrase (note the slur from the previous note) and, if anything, they should be softer than the previous notes of the phrase. Their initial volume should be matched to the dying volume of the previous melody note so that they almost hang suspended in the air. Don't pound them out!
This is a very lyrical section of this Ballade, and, as such, the melody has to "sing" above the accompaniment. Those accompanying chords of beats 2 and 3, and 5 and 6, should help give pulse and direction, but at the moment they are standing out, too obvious, without giving anything to the sense of direction that is needed here. You almost have it in measures 34-35. You need to do more of that!
At measure 68, you again have the same issue : it's pp at this point as well as meno mosso and sotto voce; I'm not hearing the hushed quality that I expect at this point. Don't rush your phrase endings. Imagine a singer singing these phrases, with the need to take a breath at the end of each phrase. I don't think this aspect can be emphasized enough.
Measures 94 through 101 need to be a lot softer than they are and note that the crescendo that starts at measure 102 doesn't peak until measure 106. By that time you seem to be at full volume with no reserves left. While there are no dynamics in the score from measure 106 to 119, you have to make a decision about what to do so that this section doesn't all sound "hammered out" at the same intense volume. I think there has to be - however you can achieve it - some sense of "growth" between the ff of measure 106 and the fff at measure 124. At this point, however, the sound quality of your recording doesn't do you any favours, does it?
You really seem to almost lose control in the scherzando section; the piece feels on the verge of running away from you and, as a listener, I became nervous for you, fearing that you were on a crash course. A listener shouldn't have that experience! I think you are trying too hard here; I think if you slow down just a shade, lighten up a little because you don't get to a ff again until measure 154, and that after a four-bar crescendo.
Just a matter of personal taste, perhaps, but I don't like to hear the triplet figures at the end of measures 180, 181, 182, etc., being tossed off so quickly, almost indifferently; try to give them a little more attention, even if you have to slow the first couple of them down a notch. A bit of rubato here would really help.
The big problem with the Presto con fuoco section is, I think, that you try to give too much too soon. Hold back a shade in both tempo and volume so that the ff at measure 238 means something.
Measure 235 and measure 257 - Ouch! After the p G minor chords, you didn't give the next half-note chord its full due and you didn't observe the rest at the beginning of the sextuplet figure. Perhaps you were in a rush to finish, but that really jarred, not having that moment where I expected to be able to catch my breath before carrying on.
I guess, overall, for me it comes down to three things : - 1) you need to work on varying the dynamics. You often reach a point that sounds pretty much like f and then you stay at that level without varying the dynamic. There needs to be greater dynamic range, but that range has to be determined by the needs of the piece and not just dynamic range for the sake of dynamic range. - 2) In the lyrical sections, I think you need to work more on balance and voicing. Sometimes the left hand is just too prominent and, while the right hand is always heard, it sometimes fights with the left hand accompaniment at moments when I don't think it should. - 3) Work on phrasing, phrasing that, by virtue of its fine shaping, doesn't give a sense of racing to the finish. Yes, of course this is a "big" piece with all that "big" implies, but there are moments when you need to hold back, take a breath, and admire the beauty along the way.
By the way, if I didn't think this was a worthy effort and one that merits refining, I would not have spent all this time critiquing.
Regards,
_________________________
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190 in satin ebony
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#1306503 - 11/16/09 10:00 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: xtraheat]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 721
Loc: Brighton, UK
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I really enjoyed this performance! For me most of the essence of Chopin's composition is there, in a distinctive interpretation. Here are my observations: Bar 7: The D in the LH needs to be struck with the B flat of the RH. A lot of the time in Chopin the whole "on the beat or before the beat" debate doesn't make a whole heap of difference, but in this case I think it's important. The E flat and B flat hitting together spoil the psychological impact of "G minor almost, but ouch". Bars 8-23: As a few other people have already pointed out, you need softer accompanying chords here. But I have no problem with your little hesitations here and there, as they feel to me to be naturally expressive. Bars 40-43: The half note, accented octaves in the RH: you played them as 1/8 notes, which detracts from the composer's carefully written buildup of energy and passion. Bar 66: Your ritenuto sounds more to me like subito largo! I think the last beat of bar 65 and first beat of bar 66 sound best in the same time as before, then the riten. takes place from there, literally from where the word is marked. Bars 68-93: This for me was the least convincing section. I'd like less rubato and more natural flow. I know you wanted us to overlook memory slips, but I think there's a direct connection between your forgetting some of the LH figures from bar 82 onwards, and your not being truly comfortable and convinced of their rhythm. The flowing duplets alternating with triplets should sound completely natural, as if you composed them yourself. Instead I hear slightly clunky gear changes that take me out of the mood. (And make no mistake, for me your performance makes magic, as it is.) Bars 138-149: I'd prefer more lightness of touch in both hands, but I like the mood of madcap desperation, of someone on the verge of losing control... as long as you are actually still in control, that is! BruceD's comments highlight that the utmost technical control is needed to convince here, and that it would probably be a good idea to ease up on the speed for a while until you are absolutely ready to return to the speed you gave us in this recording? Bar 158: In the excitement, remember to clear the pedal promptly and fully, to make way for those little silvery RH notes! Many thanks for sharing. For what it's worth, given the choice between Cortot's recording and yours to hear regularly on a desert island, I'd choose yours.  (As an aside, I'd love one day to have your technical ability.)
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Julian
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#1306562 - 11/16/09 11:58 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: SlatterFan]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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About that great chord in bar 7: I wouldn't specify that it does or doesn't have to be struck in any particular way. I would guess (for what it's worth) that Chopin wasn't quite sure how to do it.  It's always an element of extra "interest" for me to anticipate and see exactly 'how' a particular performance will take this chord. I thought our guy here did fine with it.
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1306627 - 11/16/09 01:42 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 721
Loc: Brighton, UK
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In light of MarkCannon's reply, I'll rephrase part of my feedback above: Bar 7: The D in the LH needs to be struck with the B flat of the RH. A lot of the time in Chopin the whole "on the beat or before the beat" debate doesn't make a whole heap of difference, but in this case I think it's important. The E flat and B flat hitting together spoil the psychological impact of "G minor almost, but ouch". Bar 7: I think there's a good case to be made to strike the D in the LH with the B flat in the RH. A lot of the time in Chopin the whole "on the beat or before the beat" debate doesn't make a whole heap of difference, but in this case I think it's important. The E flat and B flat hitting together spoil the psychological impact of "G minor almost, but ouch". I suggest you try it this way a few times to see how you like it, and give it a fair try?@MarkCannon: In several works where there is a broken chord in the RH, Chopin marked a line in the score of his pupils to indicate that the bottom note should be played on the beat. Although I can't cite any examples where the broken chord is in the LH, I don't see why the bass note would suddenly not be played on the beat just because the broken chord is in the other hand. All the evidence points to Chopin having a clear opinion on the subject. But you're right, I shouldn't have sounded so cut-and-dry in my first post!
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Julian
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#1306697 - 11/16/09 03:24 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: SlatterFan]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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Thanks -- and good job on the revision. But, about how Chopin indicated certain things in some copies: I wouldn't put extreme weight on stuff like that either. IMO (and I know that many would say we can't have an "opinion" on something like this) those are just "serving suggestions." Just in the few days that I've been on this site, I've noticed it said a few times (correctly, I think) that Chopin's different manuscripts reflect different ideas that he had about a piece at different times -- and by extension, I think we can be pretty sure that he even had still other ideas at other times. Many people believe that whatever is the last version (or at least the last that has been found) is definitive; I don't, among other reasons because, what happens if we wind up finding yet another later edition?? Are we forever going to be ready to throw away what we always knew or felt about a piece because of some later version that gets found? For another example similar example (on which I won't be on any more solid ground than in the Ballade):  In the E major Scherzo, at the beginning of the 3rd page in the Schirmer Joseffy edition (sorry, don't have the measure number!), the rolled chord is indicated to be attacked in a pretty specific way. I haven't been able to make that execution "work," so I do it differently, with little self-consciousness. Many people would say that's just wrong; I say we don't know that Chopin himself even took it the indicated way most of the time. Let me add also: There is so much about playing Chopin that is difficult and controversial, and much that we nowadays maybe just "don't get," that I think the issue of how we roll a chord is relatively insignificant. I don't mean we should stop talking and debating about it, just that it's probably not that a huge thing alongside all the rest. I'll take a sensitive and interesting performance with a "wrong" roll over a less interesting performance with a "correct" roll, any time. I know that I'm sort of "beating a straw man" with that statement, because I'm pretty sure you'd take it too.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1307029 - 11/17/09 06:20 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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Full Member
Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 281
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I may risk repeating some now. In spite of your arrogance xtraheat you are a sensitive and lyrical performer, but let us start from the beginning. You started the largo beautifully, but there was almost no diminuendo. The opening is an exercise in tone control. It is HELLISHLY difficult to play properly. Don't be fooled by the simplicity of the notes. You were not convincing with the dotted, triplet rhythm in bar. Also be careful you count the rests. The soprano b flat bars 7/8 is a bridge and should resonate into the opening quavors of the moderato. Note the accent on the first not of each group of 5. This should be played louder than the melody notes. It is [effectively] a pedal note. Personally I play the moderato much faster, but I was deeply impressed with your lyricism here. I was equally impressed with bars 25 thru' 33. I am not sure you got the final accented soprano A & the was the odd stutter, but that was as good as anything I have heard taking that into account. Bar 34 was not so good, but at least you didn't smudge with the pedal.
The 'a tempo' needs to be played much more positively in my opinion, but the agitato was convincing. I know Argerich plays the sempre piu mosso at the speed of light. What you played was intense and jazzy but too fast in my opinion. You lose most of the subtlety, which is particularly intriguing in view of your slow moderato. What speed? Maybe 70% of the speed you played it and it should arc. I did not get the calando....smrozando. By then you should be almost down to nothing. Remember CHOPIN IS TONE!!!!!
Meno mosso was very nice, until you reach the "sempre pp" . I don't think I heard ANY of the accents. Those bars revolve around the accents, and where there aren't any accents they should be implied for rhythmic symmetry. The diminuendo e rallentando needs to be played much lighter. It is a quasi smorzando. Note the LACK OF ACCENT on the first note of the quavor groups from 'a tempo'. It is scored "sotto voce" because wants you to highlight the whole group. This leads to the big climax at cresc...fz...sempre cresc. Very nice performance right up to the group of 4 vs 3 cross rhythm (beautifully executed). Next bar was good with the well timed mordent, but what happened to the staccato quavors. I think that needs to be practiced in isolation. This is a pivot bar as though the following is scored ff, it really should be played fff. I am not sure your first mordent octave was sharp enough, but the runs were superb. Note the change of phrasing (slurs) in the left hand in the final one. Sadly the diminuendo really let your performance down. You need to go from 5th down to 1st gear in 2 bars. The rolled chord in the base should be "snapped" out. I would avoid the sustaining pedal as much as possible.. .maybe a dab here and there only.
Again you have been listening to too much Argerich (sorry for picking on you Martha). Xtraheat you cannot do what she does. The piu animato is not an opportunity for the performer to thrash the piano for all its worth (showing off), but a subtle development bridge to the scherzando. All your sensitivity went out of the window with the piu animato. It needs to begin much softer and slower. A gradual accelerando should be applied. I even play the piu vivo much slower, but at this point your performance is very convincing, so what you did was fine. WATCH THE POCO RIT! It must really slow down here. Chopin wants to surprise the listener. I play the scherzando much slower than you, but I found your interpretation dynamic, appealing and in my opinion in the spirit of the score, so I may try your approach in future. I am not sure you really understand the punctuation of the final bars and the leggiermente (lightly) was the equivalent of an elephant trampling the keys. You did not spike the fz in the final, which was well, unconvincing to say the least. I suggest you work on this in isolation. When you play it imagine you are ice skating. That should be the affect.
Not sure I heard an fz base b flat or followi ng section was played a uniform ff. Nicely played but you did not get the group of 5 grace note motif. It should be played as a group of 5 against 6 cross rhythm. The grace note is played as a semi-quavor. You need to work on bar preceding the con forza. The trill should be a good strong mordent and no ritenuto should be applied just because you cant play the tricky rhythm at speed. Onto the con forza. The triplet soprano should be punched out. I apply an accent on the first of the group of 5. This is in the spirit of the opening moderato. Indeed I apply an accent to the first of each cluster (i.e. accented quavor C flat of the group following E (flat) F and crotchet G. I also accent the jump octave B flats.
Again notice the meno mosso/sotto voce combination. Some nice development here. I was impressed, but what happened to the appassionato? You need to be clear on your rhythmic intentions. Plenty of cosmetic errors, but who cares? There was real fire in your presto con fuoco and as fuoco is fire, your interpretation was brilliant in my book. Keep it up. Beautifully punched out dotted left hand chord under the cromatic rising run leading to a disappointing first con forza. It was really a con fluff. You didn't spike the final G. What made it more annoying was you executed to 2nd far more difficult 10ths superbly. You did not quite get the grace note octaves, but all in all a very competent 'coda'.
Well done, your performance was an asset to this forum. N ow I am waiting for the "easier" 4th ballade.
_________________________
You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:
Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor Mozart A minor Sonata K310 Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges Busoni Carmen Fantasy Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2 Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34 and others
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#1307030 - 11/17/09 06:33 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: PartyPianist]
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Full Member
Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 340
Loc: Geelong, Vic, Australia
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I may risk repeating some now. In spite of your arrogance xtraheat you are a sensitive and lyrical performer, but let us start from the beginning. You started the largo beautifully, but there was almost no diminuendo. The opening is an exercise in tone control. It is HELLISHLY difficult to play properly. Don't be fooled by the simplicity of the notes. You were not convincing with the dotted, triplet rhythm in bar. Also be careful you count the rests. The soprano b flat bars 7/8 is a bridge and should resonate into the opening quavors of the moderato. Note the accent on the first not of each group of 5. This should be played louder than the melody notes. It is [effectively] a pedal note. Personally I play the moderato much faster, but I was deeply impressed with your lyricism here. I was equally impressed with bars 25 thru' 33. I am not sure you got the final accented soprano A & the was the odd stutter, but that was as good as anything I have heard taking that into account. Bar 34 was not so good, but at least you didn't smudge with the pedal.
The 'a tempo' needs to be played much more positively in my opinion, but the agitato was convincing. I know Argerich plays the sempre piu mosso at the speed of light. What you played was intense and jazzy but too fast in my opinion. You lose most of the subtlety, which is particularly intriguing in view of your slow moderato. What speed? Maybe 70% of the speed you played it and it should arc. I did not get the calando....smrozando. By then you should be almost down to nothing. Remember CHOPIN IS TONE!!!!!
Meno mosso was very nice, until you reach the "sempre pp" . I don't think I heard ANY of the accents. Those bars revolve around the accents, and where there aren't any accents they should be implied for rhythmic symmetry. The diminuendo e rallentando needs to be played much lighter. It is a quasi smorzando. Note the LACK OF ACCENT on the first note of the quavor groups from 'a tempo'. It is scored "sotto voce" because wants you to highlight the whole group. This leads to the big climax at cresc...fz...sempre cresc. Very nice performance right up to the group of 4 vs 3 cross rhythm (beautifully executed). Next bar was good with the well timed mordent, but what happened to the staccato quavors. I think that needs to be practiced in isolation. This is a pivot bar as though the following is scored ff, it really should be played fff. I am not sure your first mordent octave was sharp enough, but the runs were superb. Note the change of phrasing (slurs) in the left hand in the final one. Sadly the diminuendo really let your performance down. You need to go from 5th down to 1st gear in 2 bars. The rolled chord in the base should be "snapped" out. I would avoid the sustaining pedal as much as possible.. .maybe a dab here and there only.
Again you have been listening to too much Argerich (sorry for picking on you Martha). Xtraheat you cannot do what she does. The piu animato is not an opportunity for the performer to thrash the piano for all its worth (showing off), but a subtle development bridge to the scherzando. All your sensitivity went out of the window with the piu animato. It needs to begin much softer and slower. A gradual accelerando should be applied. I even play the piu vivo much slower, but at this point your performance is very convincing, so what you did was fine. WATCH THE POCO RIT! It must really slow down here. Chopin wants to surprise the listener. I play the scherzando much slower than you, but I found your interpretation dynamic, appealing and in my opinion in the spirit of the score, so I may try your approach in future. I am not sure you really understand the punctuation of the final bars and the leggiermente (lightly) was the equivalent of an elephant trampling the keys. You did not spike the fz in the final, which was well, unconvincing to say the least. I suggest you work on this in isolation. When you play it imagine you are ice skating. That should be the affect.
Not sure I heard an fz base b flat or followi ng section was played a uniform ff. Nicely played but you did not get the group of 5 grace note motif. It should be played as a group of 5 against 6 cross rhythm. The grace note is played as a semi-quavor. You need to work on bar preceding the con forza. The trill should be a good strong mordent and no ritenuto should be applied just because you cant play the tricky rhythm at speed. Onto the con forza. The triplet soprano should be punched out. I apply an accent on the first of the group of 5. This is in the spirit of the opening moderato. Indeed I apply an accent to the first of each cluster (i.e. accented quavor C flat of the group following E (flat) F and crotchet G. I also accent the jump octave B flats.
Again notice the meno mosso/sotto voce combination. Some nice development here. I was impressed, but what happened to the appassionato? You need to be clear on your rhythmic intentions. Plenty of cosmetic errors, but who cares? There was real fire in your presto con fuoco and as fuoco is fire, your interpretation was brilliant in my book. Keep it up. Beautifully punched out dotted left hand chord under the cromatic rising run leading to a disappointing first con forza. It was really a con fluff. You didn't spike the final G. What made it more annoying was you executed to 2nd far more difficult 10ths superbly. You did not quite get the grace note octaves, but all in all a very competent 'coda'.
Well done, your performance was an asset to this forum. N ow I am waiting for the "easier" 4th ballade. I agree with most things, but I don't see how anything he's said makes him "arrogant."
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#1307042 - 11/17/09 07:34 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: pianojosh23]
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Full Member
Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 123
Loc: Melbourne
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Your hands look very beautiful when you play. I think that's important.
_________________________
Two shadas at noon.
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#1307051 - 11/17/09 07:59 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14709
Loc: New York City
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Many people believe that whatever is the last version (or at least the last that has been found) is definitive; I don't, among other reasons because, what happens if we wind up finding yet another later edition?? Are we forever going to be ready to throw away what we always knew or felt about a piece because of some later version that gets found?
I don't see the logic here. If one truly feels the last edition is definitive (I'm certainly not saying I do), then the "last one" means the last one known at that point in time and one uses it. If a later version is found, one uses that.
Edited by pianoloverus (11/17/09 08:02 AM)
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#1307135 - 11/17/09 10:47 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: pianojosh23]
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8208
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I may risk repeating some now. In spite of your arrogance xtraheat you are a sensitive and lyrical performer, but let us start from the beginning. You started the largo beautifully, but there was almost no diminuendo. The opening is an exercise in tone control. It is HELLISHLY difficult to play properly. Don't be fooled by the simplicity of the notes. You were not convincing with the dotted, triplet rhythm in bar. Also be careful you count the rests. The soprano b flat bars 7/8 is a bridge and should resonate into the opening quavors of the moderato. Note the accent on the first not of each group of 5. This should be played louder than the melody notes. It is [effectively] a pedal note. Personally I play the moderato much faster, but I was deeply impressed with your lyricism here. I was equally impressed with bars 25 thru' 33. I am not sure you got the final accented soprano A & the was the odd stutter, but that was as good as anything I have heard taking that into account. Bar 34 was not so good, but at least you didn't smudge with the pedal.
The 'a tempo' needs to be played much more positively in my opinion, but the agitato was convincing. I know Argerich plays the sempre piu mosso at the speed of light. What you played was intense and jazzy but too fast in my opinion. You lose most of the subtlety, which is particularly intriguing in view of your slow moderato. What speed? Maybe 70% of the speed you played it and it should arc. I did not get the calando....smrozando. By then you should be almost down to nothing. Remember CHOPIN IS TONE!!!!!
Meno mosso was very nice, until you reach the "sempre pp" . I don't think I heard ANY of the accents. Those bars revolve around the accents, and where there aren't any accents they should be implied for rhythmic symmetry. The diminuendo e rallentando needs to be played much lighter. It is a quasi smorzando. Note the LACK OF ACCENT on the first note of the quavor groups from 'a tempo'. It is scored "sotto voce" because wants you to highlight the whole group. This leads to the big climax at cresc...fz...sempre cresc. Very nice performance right up to the group of 4 vs 3 cross rhythm (beautifully executed). Next bar was good with the well timed mordent, but what happened to the staccato quavors. I think that needs to be practiced in isolation. This is a pivot bar as though the following is scored ff, it really should be played fff. I am not sure your first mordent octave was sharp enough, but the runs were superb. Note the change of phrasing (slurs) in the left hand in the final one. Sadly the diminuendo really let your performance down. You need to go from 5th down to 1st gear in 2 bars. The rolled chord in the base should be "snapped" out. I would avoid the sustaining pedal as much as possible.. .maybe a dab here and there only.
Again you have been listening to too much Argerich (sorry for picking on you Martha). Xtraheat you cannot do what she does. The piu animato is not an opportunity for the performer to thrash the piano for all its worth (showing off), but a subtle development bridge to the scherzando. All your sensitivity went out of the window with the piu animato. It needs to begin much softer and slower. A gradual accelerando should be applied. I even play the piu vivo much slower, but at this point your performance is very convincing, so what you did was fine. WATCH THE POCO RIT! It must really slow down here. Chopin wants to surprise the listener. I play the scherzando much slower than you, but I found your interpretation dynamic, appealing and in my opinion in the spirit of the score, so I may try your approach in future. I am not sure you really understand the punctuation of the final bars and the leggiermente (lightly) was the equivalent of an elephant trampling the keys. You did not spike the fz in the final, which was well, unconvincing to say the least. I suggest you work on this in isolation. When you play it imagine you are ice skating. That should be the affect.
Not sure I heard an fz base b flat or followi ng section was played a uniform ff. Nicely played but you did not get the group of 5 grace note motif. It should be played as a group of 5 against 6 cross rhythm. The grace note is played as a semi-quavor. You need to work on bar preceding the con forza. The trill should be a good strong mordent and no ritenuto should be applied just because you cant play the tricky rhythm at speed. Onto the con forza. The triplet soprano should be punched out. I apply an accent on the first of the group of 5. This is in the spirit of the opening moderato. Indeed I apply an accent to the first of each cluster (i.e. accented quavor C flat of the group following E (flat) F and crotchet G. I also accent the jump octave B flats.
Again notice the meno mosso/sotto voce combination. Some nice development here. I was impressed, but what happened to the appassionato? You need to be clear on your rhythmic intentions. Plenty of cosmetic errors, but who cares? There was real fire in your presto con fuoco and as fuoco is fire, your interpretation was brilliant in my book. Keep it up. Beautifully punched out dotted left hand chord under the cromatic rising run leading to a disappointing first con forza. It was really a con fluff. You didn't spike the final G. What made it more annoying was you executed to 2nd far more difficult 10ths superbly. You did not quite get the grace note octaves, but all in all a very competent 'coda'.
Well done, your performance was an asset to this forum. N ow I am waiting for the "easier" 4th ballade. I agree with most things, but I don't see how anything he's said makes him "arrogant." Agreed. Was that necessary?
_________________________
~H
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#1307211 - 11/17/09 01:03 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: pianoloverus]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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Many people believe that whatever is the last version (or at least the last that has been found) is definitive; I don't, among other reasons because, what happens if we wind up finding yet another later edition?? Are we forever going to be ready to throw away what we always knew or felt about a piece because of some later version that gets found?
I don't see the logic here. If one truly feels the last edition is definitive (I'm certainly not saying I do), then the "last one" means the last one known at that point in time and one uses it. If a later version is found, one uses that. I know that's what many or most people think. I don't get it. For a composer like Beethoven, I would, because we know that he "worked things out" as he went along. Do we know that about Chopin??? I think if anything we know that he didn't particularly, or at least that he also had alternate/parallel ways. A cliche about him -- and one which I think is pretty close to true -- is that he played his pieces differently each time. Was it an "evolution" toward something better, or just different? I think mainly the latter -- and it seems that most people agree on this part of my take on it, doesn't it? -- and I don't know that we have much reason to think the different editions (and the markings in his students' scores) reflect something other than the same thing as his playing the pieces differently at different times. So, what I'm saying is that for Chopin, there's never (literally never, I think) any such thing as a "definitive" edition. That's "the logic." I know that you disagree with it, but I hope you won't feel that you don't see it.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1307389 - 11/17/09 07:04 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 721
Loc: Brighton, UK
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IMO (and I know that many would say we can't have an "opinion" on something like this) those are just "serving suggestions." Just in the few days that I've been on this site, I've noticed it said a few times (correctly, I think) that Chopin's different manuscripts reflect different ideas that he had about a piece at different times -- and by extension, I think we can be pretty sure that he even had still other ideas at other times. Many people believe that whatever is the last version (or at least the last that has been found) is definitive; I don't, among other reasons because, what happens if we wind up finding yet another later edition?? Are we forever going to be ready to throw away what we always knew or felt about a piece because of some later version that gets found? I agree that it isn't always possible to be sure of a definitive reading of a particular Chopin work. However... 1) Most differences don't significantly affect the sound of the work to anyone but hard-core connoisseurs. Does this chord include this extra note (that's part of the harmony already), or does this inner note tie over to this one in a fast-moving passage or is it repeated, or does the RH or LH play this note, or does this note last a 1/4 note or an 1/8 note (when the pedal is down and other things are going on at the same time), etc. But there are notable exceptions that really stand out, such as whether to play E natural or E flat at the end of the 3rd bar of op.28 no.20. Bar 7 of op.23 is another exception: it's the first dissonance of a piece, highly exposed, at a very slow tempo, setting the tone for where the melody enters for the first time. 2) There's also a big difference between incidental points and fundamentals. Playing grace notes on the beat as the norm rather than the exception in Chopin is a fundamental stylistic point, confirmed repeatedly by the composer via his pupils, in pen, pencil, and testimony. It's not one of the "minutiae" type of differences between autographs and/or first editions. There's an excellent book I've seen mentioned before in Pianist Corner, and I'm going to plug it again: Chopin: pianist and teacher as seen by his pupils by Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger (ISBN 0 521 36709 3), in print in English in paperback since 1988. It covers technique, style, interpretation of specific Chopin works, two different drafts of a piano method Chopin had planned but never finished, a photo of corrections and additions made by Chopin to a proof of a French first edition, images and summaries of Chopin's markings in his students' books, descriptions of Chopin's playing by a huge variety of musicians and critics, brief biographies of many of Chopin's pupils and their observations and recollections, plus more. It may change your opinions. For another example similar example (on which I won't be on any more solid ground than in the Ballade):  In the E major Scherzo, at the beginning of the 3rd page in the Schirmer Joseffy edition (sorry, don't have the measure number!), the rolled chord is indicated to be attacked in a pretty specific way. I haven't been able to make that execution "work," so I do it differently, with little self-consciousness. Many people would say that's just wrong; I say we don't know that Chopin himself even took it the indicated way most of the time. Let me guess: bar 89, where the RH has a repeated A sharp followed by a rising E, A sharp, E, and Joseffy says to hit the first A sharp with the bass, but you prefer to hit the second A sharp with the bass? So do I. It's an interesting one. Chopin wrote a dotted line from the first A sharp to the bass note in Dubois's copy, and the Paderewski and National/Ekier editions say to play the first A sharp with the bass. But I wonder... The annotated Nocturnes in Eigeldinger's book suggest to me that Chopin could have meant the dotted line to mean "just before the beat" and solid line to mean "on the beat". Sure, I'm speculating, but this interpretation makes the Stirling and Dubois scores of op.9 no.2 consistent and complementary rather than contradictory. (Anyway, the flourish in the Scherzo is a peppy little sparkle in the grand order of things, as opposed to a really significant dissonance in a drama, so I'd say no biggy.) Let me add also: There is so much about playing Chopin that is difficult and controversial, and much that we nowadays maybe just "don't get," that I think the issue of how we roll a chord is relatively insignificant. I don't mean we should stop talking and debating about it, just that it's probably not that a huge thing alongside all the rest. I'll take a sensitive and interesting performance with a "wrong" roll over a less interesting performance with a "correct" roll, any time. I know that I'm sort of "beating a straw man" with that statement, because I'm pretty sure you'd take it too. I agree in general.
_________________________
Julian
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#1307429 - 11/17/09 08:05 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14709
Loc: New York City
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Many people believe that whatever is the last version (or at least the last that has been found) is definitive; I don't, among other reasons because, what happens if we wind up finding yet another later edition?? Are we forever going to be ready to throw away what we always knew or felt about a piece because of some later version that gets found?
I don't see the logic here. If one truly feels the last edition is definitive (I'm certainly not saying I do), then the "last one" means the last one known at that point in time and one uses it. If a later version is found, one uses that. I know that's what many or most people think. I don't get it. For a composer like Beethoven, I would, because we know that he "worked things out" as he went along. Do we know that about Chopin??? I think if anything we know that he didn't particularly, or at least that he also had alternate/parallel ways. A cliche about him -- and one which I think is pretty close to true -- is that he played his pieces differently each time. Was it an "evolution" toward something better, or just different? I think mainly the latter -- and it seems that most people agree on this part of my take on it, doesn't it? -- and I don't know that we have much reason to think the different editions (and the markings in his students' scores) reflect something other than the same thing as his playing the pieces differently at different times. So, what I'm saying is that for Chopin, there's never (literally never, I think) any such thing as a "definitive" edition. That's "the logic." I know that you disagree with it, but I hope you won't feel that you don't see it. I find it difficult or impossible to follow your thinking. For starters, you seem to be making a completely different argument than the one I disagreed with. My comment in my previous post said " if someone felt the last edition was definitive" and reached a conclusion based on that assumption. I'm not even sure what you mean by "last" edition. Clearly just being the most recent is not a reason to choose an edition because, without quality, being recent is irrelevant. Secondly, you make numerous assumptions in your second paragraph that seem to be just your opinion. From my experience attending master classes, there are a few editions that the majority of teachers find acceptable and as long as a student is using one of those there is no discussion like the recent part of this thread. If the teacher doesn't like an edition, they suggest one or two and that's the end of the discussion.
Edited by pianoloverus (11/17/09 08:32 PM)
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#1307449 - 11/17/09 08:46 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: SlatterFan]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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.... For another example similar example (on which I won't be on any more solid ground than in the Ballade):  In the E major Scherzo, at the beginning of the 3rd page in the Schirmer Joseffy edition (sorry, don't have the measure number!), the rolled chord is indicated to be attacked in a pretty specific way. I haven't been able to make that execution "work," so I do it differently, with little self-consciousness. Many people would say that's just wrong; I say we don't know that Chopin himself even took it the indicated way most of the time. Let me guess: bar 89, where the RH has a repeated A sharp followed by a rising E, A sharp, E, and Joseffy says to hit the first A sharp with the bass, but you prefer to hit the second A sharp with the bass? So do I....... Terrific post......and for the moment I'm just going to comment on this one thing real fast because we need to go out to dinner but I can't eat till I at least respond to this great thing.....  (more later) GREAT JOB -- yes, that's the chord I meant. And by the way I made a mistake saying that it was the Joseffy edition; it's the Wiener edition that indicates it to be played in a particular way, and it's exactly how you said. (I just "misremembered" which of my editions had it.) My way of playing it hasn't been the same as yours -- I usually hold off on the bass note till I get to the top right hand note (E). But I think I'll start trying it your way.  P.S. As for the Joseffy, it doesn't give any specific indication, except perhaps to seem to imply it should be played "my" way (but not really). Thanks for the reply.......more later. But let me say that it is exhilarating to be on a site with people who know the repertoire so well and can give such perceptive and sophisticated replies.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1307474 - 11/17/09 09:45 PM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: Mark_C]
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Full Member
Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 281
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No xtraheat was extremely humble by making this post, however other correspondence has been less than humble lol.
_________________________
You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:
Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor Mozart A minor Sonata K310 Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges Busoni Carmen Fantasy Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2 Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34 and others
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#1307556 - 11/18/09 12:31 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: SlatterFan]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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....and now about the rest of that post (since we're back from dinner)....  I agree that it isn't always possible to be sure of a definitive reading of a particular Chopin work. However... 1) Most differences don't significantly affect the sound of the work to anyone but hard-core connoisseurs .....But there are notable exceptions that really stand out, such as whether to play E natural or E flat at the end of the 3rd bar of op.28 no.20. Bar 7 of op.23 is another exception: it's the first dissonance of a piece, highly exposed, at a very slow tempo, setting the tone for where the melody enters for the first time.... Yes -- that note in the Prelude is a great example of where it matters a lot, although even there, unless there's definitive evidence that one or the other is "right," I wouldn't (and don't) get too worked up whichever note someone plays, and to me the piece is still "the piece" either way. About that chord in the Ballade, I would suggest that we should be fine with whatever people do as long as they don't play a "D" instead of the E-flat. Some editions REALLY DID change it to "D," at least in the old days, on the grounds that the E-flat was an "obvious mistake."  Hard to believe! But, I want to tell you (this is the truth!!), I was in a music history course at Cornell where the professor used this opening passage of the ballade as an example of something or other, and the edition had the D -- and when we pointed out the error, the prof (who wasn't a pianist) said, matter-of-factly, "But I-6-4 works perfectly well!" Alongside stuff like this, I'm very tolerant of different ideas on how to roll the chord. 2) There's also a big difference between incidental points and fundamentals. Playing grace notes on the beat as the norm rather than the exception in Chopin is a fundamental stylistic point, confirmed repeatedly by the composer via his pupils, in pen, pencil, and testimony. It's not one of the "minutiae" type of differences between autographs and/or first editions. Yes, as long as "the norm" doesn't mean "rule." Like, what about "that passage" (I think you'll know which one) in the Op. 18 Waltz? Admittedly it's an extreme example, but in general I'm quite comfortable with just saying about a rendition, "Does it work?" rather than going on any "rule," especially when we know that there are exceptions. I hope this doesn't sound like nihilism. :-) There's an excellent book I've seen mentioned before in Pianist Corner ....Chopin: pianist and teacher as seen by his pupils by Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger .....It may change your opinions.... I just ordered the book. And, I hate when people say stuff like what I'm about to say  but I'll be surprised if it significantly moves my basic view, because it would need to make me think that Chopin's various different indications in different manuscripts generally reflect some kind of "working out" (like with Beethoven) rather than just different ideas that he had at different times. But who knows .....maybe it will. Thanks for pushing the book. I'll read it.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1307563 - 11/18/09 12:53 AM
Re: Critique my Performance of Chopin's First Ballade
[Re: SlatterFan]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14764
Loc: New York
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P.S. (and above all).....My main problem with many of the specific critiques on here is that they are way too small and almost negligible, compared to larger points that would be more helpful to the original poster. The larger points have been made too, but I think they've been drowned amidst the sea of smaller points which are not just smaller, but debatable. I guess part of why we get so much into what I'm calling the "smaller" points is that they're more interesting for us (including me) than just saying general things like "work on expanding your dynamic range." But I sort of feel for the original poster, because I think to some extent we're submerging the larger, more important points by putting such emphasis on details which he maybe doesn't need to worry about at all. Do I mean to be making a general point about teaching? Yes. 
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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