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#1306522 - 11/16/09 10:32 AM Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?)
Yulia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 8
Hello everybody!
I was reading through this forum for the past week or so, but still i am very confused...
Both - me and my daughter -want to start taking piano lessons...
I am in a process of buying our first Yamaha Clavinova...Our budget is around $1200-1400.
My main question - should i look for a used one like CLP970 or just buy a new one like YDP223? What would be the optimal piano for us? Are new ones that cost $1300 are better or worse then old ones that used to cost $4000?

What should i look for in a digital piano? Is 128 Polyphony important? What about wattage? YDP223 is 20w*2 and 64 polyphony while CLP970 is 60W*2 and 128 polyphony...

I appreciate any input and answers! Thank you!

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#1306530 - 11/16/09 10:54 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: Yulia]
VS Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 5
Loc: NY
I was in the same predicament as you, and purchased the Yamaha. It worked great! My daughter loves the voices and actually kept her quite interested in piano. After several years, we sold it (very quickly) and upgraded to an acoustic. She still misses the voices! You will be fine with either.

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#1306544 - 11/16/09 11:25 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to bu [Re: Yulia]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
I think the best $1,200 yamaha is the p-155.

The way to compare yamaha DPs is to know how to read their description, Yamaha uses a kind of code to make it hard.

The things that you should compare are the "feel" of the keys. Yamaha only makes about four grade of key mechanism. Any piano with the same key mechanism will have the same feel. And how the sound is generated, with single or multi levels of sampling this determines the quality of the sound. the watts and speakers size has more effect on the quantity of sound (the volume level)

My preference would be to buy something that has at least the GHE keys and at least a multi-sampled sound. Those are my "bottom line" and after that I'll look intoprice, looks, watts and speaker size.



Make a chart or table that lists every model and then for each
1) What kind of keys? "weighted, graded Hammer, GHE, GH3 or whatever. You want the piano with the best keys you can afford. I'd think that would be GHE is a minimum. But to make it harder Yamahais sometimes calls GHE GH

Thet look at the sound generation. Some are "multi-strike" and others are not. Some claim "string resonance" and "key off" samples. I think you want at least a multi-strike (aka multi level) sound. Polyphony or more than 60 or so is not something a student needs.

Next choose the cabinet type and sound system. Some have powerfull 60 watt amps and large speakers, some have smaller amps and small speakers and some stage pianos, no speakers at all. Some have very nice wood stands others require you to supply a stand.

Clearly the DP with all the best costs more so you need to decide what is the most impotent. For me the "feel" of the keys is #1, after then is the sound. I don't care to much about speakers as I mostly use headphones. Other people might put "looks" as their #1 criteria. You decide

Used pianos are a great deal but if (say) your bottom line is "at least a GHE3 keyboard" then simply ignore all the ads for older Yamaha and wait for a later model to come up. That's the tink about older DPs, they may not have your bottom line feature, you have to wait.

I'm finding that most of the used DPs for sale are grossly over priced but are being re-listed week after week. What these sellers don't know is that their 12 year old DP is not nearly as good as a $500 Casio PX-130. So of course it will never sell for $900 even if the owner did pay $2,400 for it 12 years ago, technology moves fast.

So, before you buy a used DP check out the new DPs in the $500 to $800 range. The new ones are pretty good and some with a warenty. But then the new $2000 pianos are even better.

Yhr YDP223 and 323 use the better "GHE" keys. The YDP213 has the cheaper "GHS" keys. But none of the YDPs claim to have multi-level sampling

So far may favorite Yamaha is the p-155. It has the GHE keys and 4 level piano samples. but I need to understand the Roland and Kawai lines better before I select something. But I'm not buying anything with lower specs than the p155.


Edited by ChrisA (11/16/09 01:33 PM)

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#1306674 - 11/16/09 02:53 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to bu [Re: ChrisA]
Yulia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 8
Thank you so much for your answers! I do understand that 12 yo DPs are waaay outdated...But what about 4-5 year old ones? Like clp 970?
Does used $1200 DP compares to new $1200 DP?
What about CVP? I've read that their sound is worse then CLPs...Is it true? Is a CVP 401 any good?

Is it important to find DP with Graded Hammer 3 effect or Graded Hammer or Hammer Effect is enough?
Is 20W is enough?
64 Polyphony?




Edited by Yulia (11/16/09 02:55 PM)

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#1306729 - 11/16/09 04:17 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to bu [Re: Yulia]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Yulia
Thank you so much for your answers! I do understand that 12 yo DPs are waaay outdated...But what about 4-5 year old ones? Like clp 970?
Does used $1200 DP compares to new $1200 DP?
What about CVP? I've read that their sound is worse then CLPs...Is it true? Is a CVP 401 any good?

Is it important to find DP with Graded Hammer 3 effect or Graded Hammer or Hammer Effect is enough?
Is 20W is enough?
64 Polyphony?




If the keys are the most important thing look at the Kawai CE200. I was pretty impressed. It as long wooden keys.

I think what they say about CVP vs. CLP is that for the same money the CLP will be a better piano. But for every CLP there is an matching and more expensive CVP. The CVP will have lots of extra non-piano related features. You pay for those extra voices and other features. I think it's the same with the p-155 and CP33 vs. the CLP. You pay a lot for the simulated wood stand and larger speakers. But if you need those things you have to pay for them.

I wrote "Yamaha uses a kind of code". It's worse. They change the code over the years. Sometimes GH = GHE, some times not. I think you want the one above GHS. Which is listed as either GH or GHE. The next level is GHE3

GHE3 is the same as GHE but with a third sensor to allows the kind of very fast repeated notes some acoustic pianos can do without fully raising the key. Who knows if you'd notice?

20W is pretty loud but I doubt it could re-produce the power of a real 8 foot concert grand. But I'd not worry because you can always connect to an external amp via the line-out should you find yourself needing to play in a large venue.

I think most people think 64 note poly is enough. After all you only have 10 fingers. How to play more? use the damper pedal. In theory you can go over 64 but I think in real life not. Real acoustic pianos can "only" do 88 note poly. So paying for 128-notes maybe overkill

I'm trying to get a chance to play each model but no one stocks a ful line. So I have to try a just any Yamaha GHE keys and figure they are all the same. Then try any 4-level samplsed sound and assume the same. May goal is to buy something before 2010. I need to upgrade from the older Roland I'm using.


Edited by ChrisA (11/16/09 04:24 PM)

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#1306803 - 11/16/09 06:07 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to bu [Re: ChrisA]
gerardo1000 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 129
I have a Yamaha YDP 223 and I would recommend it to you. It is a great console piano with great piano sound and great action.It is an older model, but it is still sold by Yamaha and its dealers, and can be bought, new, for less than $ 1500.00.


Edited by gerardo1000 (11/16/09 09:34 PM)

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#1306923 - 11/16/09 10:55 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to bu [Re: gerardo1000]
Yulia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: gerardo1000
I have a Yamaha YDP 223 and I would recommend it to you. It is a great console piano with great piano sound and great action.It is an older model, but it is still sold by Yamaha and its dealers, and can be bought, new, for less than $ 1500.00.

so ydp223 would be better then clp 970? ydp223 IS a newer model...
My friend got used clp 970 for $1300 (that's why i am comparing with that model)& it sounds and feels great...Would ydp223 sound better?
I am still trying to understand if i should look for a brand new model or search craiglist for 5 yo models or so....

Thank you all for your answers! i read them very carefully!

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#1306937 - 11/16/09 11:27 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: Yulia]
Jaydee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 36
I would not buy anything before trying the Kawai ce200. The Kawai touch is more realistic than the Yamaha, and the ce200 can be had for 1600 more or less. I, too, was all set to buy a new Yamaha until I tried the Kawai.

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#1307146 - 11/17/09 11:11 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to bu [Re: Yulia]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Yulia
My friend got used clp 970 for $1300 (that's why i am comparing with that model)& it sounds and feels great...Would ydp223 sound better?
Obviously, you will need to consider the CONDITION of the older CLP-970. But, assuming it's in good shape, it's vastly better than the YDP-223 in all respects.

Better keyboard, better tone generator, 5-level sampling (not just 1 as with the YDP223), 60 watt amps (not just 20 watt), dual 6" and dual 2" speakers.

The CLP-970 was a high-end model. The YDP223 was a low-end. There's no comparison.

Used pianos don't sell well, so you might be able to work out a very attractive price on a used CLP-970.

Good luck.

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#1307854 - 11/18/09 03:08 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to bu [Re: MacMacMac]
Yulia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Obviously, you will need to consider the CONDITION of the older CLP-970. But, assuming it's in good shape, it's vastly better than the YDP-223 in all respects.

Better keyboard, better tone generator, 5-level sampling (not just 1 as with the YDP223), 60 watt amps (not just 20 watt), dual 6" and dual 2" speakers.

The CLP-970 was a high-end model. The YDP223 was a low-end. There's no comparison.

Used pianos don't sell well, so you might be able to work out a very attractive price on a used CLP-970.

Good luck.

Thank you! what about clp-950, clp-830...they seem to be not as good as 970?

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#1307871 - 11/18/09 03:40 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: Jaydee]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Jaydee
I would not buy anything before trying the Kawai ce200. The Kawai touch is more realistic than the Yamaha, and the ce200 can be had for 1600 more or less. I, too, was all set to buy a new Yamaha until I tried the Kawai.


DPs have two components: Keys and sound.

I agree with you about the keys on the CE200. But I think The better Yamahas, the P155 and up, have better sound than the CE200.

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#1308654 - 11/19/09 05:15 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: ChrisA]
hIt0sAwA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: South CA
I used to have ydp 223, and just sold it ( iam a student fr maryland and just moving out of state and the shipping price for the piano is ridiculous)
So, from my experience, YDP 223 is a great piano. I love the GHE keyboard. Iam an amateur, and people suggest that 64 polyphony is good enough for me. However, i feel the speakers are not loud enough. What is more, I have trouble recording my performance(and i go mad at it after $$ spent and time wasted, not to mention the * yamaha customer services..arggg). The reason why may be because YDP223 is kind of an old model.

I guess you may consider YDP160, the same as YDP223 in terms of keyboard, polyphony, speakers, but cheaper and lighter.
_________________________
New to the US...
bored..because of almost no friends...
decided to go w a piano...
not to kill time,
but to enjoy time.

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#1308698 - 11/19/09 06:08 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: hIt0sAwA]
gerardo1000 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 129
I also have a YDP223 and I find it a great piano with great action and great sound. I am not sure that the YDP 160 is similar or better: if you look at some YDP223 videos on you tube, there is one from an official Yamaha technician/player. A you tube viewer asked him which dp he would buy between the YDP 160 and the YDP223, and the expert said that the YDP223 is better.

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#1308854 - 11/19/09 10:21 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: gerardo1000]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: gerardo1000
if you look at some YDP223 videos on you tube, there is one from an official Yamaha technician/player. A you tube viewer asked him which dp he would buy between the YDP 160 and the YDP223, and the expert said that the YDP223 is better.
But he'd be wrong. One level sampling is lame.

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#1318815 - 12/05/09 08:24 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: MacMacMac]
Yulia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 8
what about clp-950, clp-830...they seem to be not as good as 970?

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#1319423 - 12/06/09 07:06 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: Yulia]
Yulia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 8
And can anybody tell me, please, which CVP model would be as good as CLP-970? Or none?

Thank you!!

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#1319454 - 12/06/09 09:47 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: Yulia]
Huygens Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 217
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: Yulia
And can anybody tell me, please, which CVP model would be as good as CLP-970? Or none?

If you mean what CVP models is as good as or outperforms the CLP-970 on all points, I would say: CVP-207, CVP-209, CVP-305, CVP-307, CVP-309, CVP-405, CVP-407, CVP-409 and CVP-509.

I would add that the CVP-305 & CVP-405 only have 2 speakers * 40W, but they are stronger on sound effects and other features, so I still consider the CVP-305 & CVP-405 as-good-as-or-better than the CLP-970.

It will probably be good to know that the CVP-505, even if it has a few (quite poor) improvements over the CVP-405, the CVP-505 has no String Resonance, and is in my view a downgrade compared to the CVP-405 (but also cheaper)!

There is no CVP-507 of today.

You could compare all CVP models yourself by looking the Owner's Manuals up on the Yamaha manual page (click link).
_________________________
P-85 cheap plastic imitation; not because of sound, but weight.

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#1319699 - 12/06/09 05:50 PM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: Huygens]
Yulia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: Huygens
Originally Posted By: Yulia
And can anybody tell me, please, which CVP model would be as good as CLP-970? Or none?

If you mean what CVP models is as good as or outperforms the CLP-970 on all points, I would say: CVP-207, CVP-209, CVP-305, CVP-307, CVP-309, CVP-405, CVP-407, CVP-409 and CVP-509.

I would add that the CVP-305 & CVP-405 only have 2 speakers * 40W, but they are stronger on sound effects and other features, so I still consider the CVP-305 & CVP-405 as-good-as-or-better than the CLP-970.

It will probably be good to know that the CVP-505, even if it has a few (quite poor) improvements over the CVP-405, the CVP-505 has no String Resonance, and is in my view a downgrade compared to the CVP-405 (but also cheaper)!

There is no CVP-507 of today.

You could compare all CVP models yourself by looking the Owner's Manuals up on the Yamaha manual page (click link).


Thank you SO much!!!

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#1325004 - 12/14/09 07:49 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: Yulia]
Yulia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 8
What about other CLP models? Which ones compare to CLP-970 in quality and sound? Thanks a lot!!

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#1325120 - 12/14/09 11:34 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: Yulia]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
I agree entirely with ChrisA.

The feel of a good keyboard action is most important. Multi-strike sampling of at least 3 levels is the minimum you should look for. Some kind of resonance sample or modeling I consider to be very important too.

You will pay a lot for chip-board cabinetry, chip-board stands, and larger speakers and amplifiers - and you will have to sell these later with the DP. In general, I think stage DPs are a much easier resell.

A very nice professional stand can be had for $100 or so and you will be able to use it with every new stage-type keyboard you buy, then bequeath it to your children in your will. Built-in speakers & amps are rarely adequate - they aren't designed well and use cheap speakers in too-small enclosures. Even relatively inexpensive stereo speakers ($25/pair):
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-652

with a small external amplifier:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-380

will kick their ass every time, as most definitely will a good set (>$100, AKG, Sennheiser, NOT Bose) of headphones.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1325135 - 12/14/09 11:54 AM Re: Another beginner is looking for help (which Yamaha to buy?) [Re: dewster]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
The best speaker system I have used on a keyboard (for home use) is the Logitech Z2300 2.1 system.

Designed for a PC, and discovered on many keyboard forums to be ideal for digital piano and arranger keyboard applications.

Under $200, and excellent build quality.

200 watts and even has a remote control.

Much, much better than systems in even top of the line pianos.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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